I love it. In my opinion this is an immense step in the right direction.
One of the biggest endgame complaints I've seen from all the people who fondly remember D2 as the greatest gift to planet Earth since the invention of beer is that D2 did not have a level cap, and the grind to 99 was annoying and terribly long but at least gave you a sense of accomplishing something. Now that they have negated this complaint, I wonder what the haters will pick next as their shining example of D2 win and D3 fail.
Eventually getting to the point where you wrecked monsters faces in D2 was half of the fun. The other half MF/good loot, so hopefully they've addressed both.
the upside with paragon-levels is that they've extended the characterprogression, similar to D2.
the downside to this is that it'll bring an even bigger item/gold-inflation due to the MF-increase with each level.
besides that they believe that they have solved the endgameproblem... but they haven't extended the actual gameplay-content in the game. we will still farm the same levels, same acts. they need to do something similar to whimseyshire, but even better and bigger (endless dungeons). and they need to implement more gold/items-sinks in the game, because the inflation is ridicolous.
Why? Why does the game need an endless dungeon or some other new endgame content? It's not an MMORPG, there is no expectation of new content on a fixed or semi-fixed schedule to keep your attention from wandering. Instead it's an ARPG, where the focus is on grinding the same content over and over and making incremental improvements to your character, each one small and inconsequential but eventually adding up to a massively overpowered character.
The constant call for some new endgame progression system just doesn't make sense to me. That's never what this genre was about. And yes, I know D2 had uber-tristram, but that was added years after the expansion came out, and it was not a true endless progression system, it was simply one more thing to run over and over and over.
Eventually getting to the point where you wrecked monsters faces in D2 was half of the fun. The other half MF/good loot, so hopefully they've addressed both.
I agree with that. The best part about D2 for me anyways, was being able to "solo 8 player hell cows". It was never about seeing new content or anything. I liked to do Orb, Orb, nova nova nova nova down to the point where It didn't seem fair :Thumbs Up:
*edit* That was before botted Baal runs became the must-do for 99.
Surprised by the positive response. Yes, having something for people to grind/progress is a good thing. This is what isn't:
- Irritating boss gear swapping is still in place until you grind 100 levels. It's called "grind" here because you need to do repetitive stuff to *make the annoying go away*, you are motivated to remove negatives rather than work towards a positive. Solving a problem after a years worth of grind is not a solution.
- With no more MF vs stats dichotomy, there will eventually be no reason to scrounge all of inferno. Maxed paragon toons might as well do nothing but azmo runs.
- 100 levels of stat buffs on top of that were not really needed IMO. As mentioned Inferno is easy enough with top end gear, which is what lvl 100s can get anyway with all that MF/GF. Now it's just pushing towards faceroll. Then again people loved this in D2 so they must be happy. :/
- Oh and newbies can enjoy even higher prices when scrounging the AH now that maxed toons will be making 4X the gold casually, actually more than that given the repair sinks will not keep up. On the plus side maybe it will prompt people to invest in RMAH once again to avoid that runaway inflation.
If I understand this right I grinded hours for high end endgame MF items, and blizzard, wich seemed to encourage that by saying they were not happy about gear swapping, says now I'm fucked.
GREAT. Maybe time to leave this game.
Do you realize how long it is going to take you to cause your MF gear to be obsolete?
Listen, I did the same thing as you and I have about 230 MF pre-NV on gear that I can effectively clear A2/A3 with. That said, I think the changes are great.
- Over time your base character will become stronger
- Eventually you will receive max MF without needing any MF on gear
What's to complain about? All this means is you're going to get more/better gear as you level up your paragon.. and then eventually you'll be able to shed that gear for more survivability.
If I understand this right I grinded hours for high end endgame MF items, and blizzard, wich seemed to encourage that by saying they were not happy about gear swapping, says now I'm fucked.
GREAT. Maybe time to leave this game.
Dude, how many hours do you think it will take for your paragon levels to make your MF/GF useless? MORE TO DO is not the same as MORE TO DO FOREVER AND AFTER.
You grinded away and bought/found countless great items with stats/mf/gf and now you feel cheated? Comprehensibly so, and yet you will be one of the people that should benefit most from the new system, as you already closed the gap to the cap and should be able to get better items faster and slowly switch 'em out with your current gear. As for people with no MF/GF gear, well, they will have to grind hours on end to get to where you are now.
That is, if you take advantage of the situation now. I can see a lot of people going pure dps to get paragon levels, but that means ridiculously low MF for quite some time.
- Irritating boss gear swapping is still in place until you grind 100 levels. It's called "grind" here because you need to do repetitive stuff to *make the annoying go away*, you are motivated to remove negatives rather than work towards a positive. Solving a problem after a years worth of grind is not a solution.
I wont' be bothering to gear swap (and I never have) on my "grind," into paragon levels. I would be shocked if it took a year to do aswell.
- With no more MF vs stats dichotomy, there will eventually be no reason to scrounge all of inferno. Maxed paragon toons might as well do nothing but azmo runs.
With the other stat and affix combinations needed for an ideal gearset, that's just wrong. There will still be plenty to hunt for in the absence of mf as a most-desired stat.
- 100 levels of stat buffs on top of that were not really needed IMO. As mentioned Inferno is easy enough with top end gear, which is what lvl 100s can get anyway with all that MF/GF. Now it's just pushing towards faceroll. Then again people loved this in D2 so they must be happy. :/
Lots of players wanted the D2 difficulty curve back, but obviously not everyone shared that sentiment. Still, I would be surprised if the majority of players thought the game was too easy. I think the opposite is true.
- Oh and newbies can enjoy even higher prices when scrounging the AH now that maxed toons will be making 4X the gold casually, actually more than that given the repair sinks will not keep up. On the plus side maybe it will prompt people to invest in RMAH once again to avoid that runaway inflation.
I thought most players didn't like using the AH? Anyway, I think market trends should be the last thing on Blizzard's mind when making changes to improve gameplay and replayability. It's also worth noting that economic hypothesis doesn't really add up. If most players are making tons of gold and finding tons of great items, the market value of those entry-level items will be very low. The real inflation will take place where demand warrants it, way up at the top. I don't think that's of any concern to newbies.
Its certainly promising. I'm worried about how this will affect d3 expansions, though. Will the character cap be raised? Will all paragon levels be lost?
It is a very nice and interesting addition, but the game still has the sense of..."on rails". The skills, though buffed, will still seem very generic and bland. The loot, though boosted by MF, will still be very boring and the affixes lame.
Still will be neat to check out, though.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It is easier to show the disorder that must accompany reform than the order that should follow it.
...Because it's still farming just for the sake of farming, there's no goal in the game that would actually require more gear. It's definitely a good start though.
...Because it's still farming just for the sake of farming, there's no goal in the game that would actually require more gear. It's definitely a good start though.
Jesus Christ, people bitch that they wanted a long-term grinding progression like getting lvl 99 in D2.. All you did was farm gear while killing Baal, Pindle, Meph millions and millions of times. Now they give you that in the form of paragon levels, they are buffing set items and legendaries, buffing skills, and people still aren't f'ing happy. I think this is a good overall solution for people who feel they need to see an exp bar move once they hit 60.
my first thought (besides of how awesome this is) is that, in this same patch they nerfed max health of elites to 75% in coop, they buffed pretty much all skills, so at default 60, we wont really be testing out how uber we are/were for long, as soon as you gain paragon levels, you gain stats, thus doing even more dps....so the new cool dps changes are just the beginning
Currently, the game is not a challenge, inferno is being cleared in many different ways, including in blues, or budget gear, so now that we can gain additional levels...the game will be even more faceroll, quickly, not only are we going to be destroying everything at 60 just from the patch notes alone, but gaining more stats as you go with paragon...you will quickly outpace the mobs, in any act, there are already dh's doing 150k dps (rough estimate maybe even more) and that was PRE 1.04....
So i guess my concern is that yay we can level up more, but it will be against the same old boring mobs, mobs we will be 1 shotting, so at that point it comes down to killing as efficiently as possible, maximizing xp gain, and we may even see bosses ran more now, if they give more exp per kill, i could see people doing a warden/butcher run over and over...
The idea was to make paragon levels last as long or take as long as it did to get to 99 in diablo 2...but if we remember from all those years ago, the exp to get from 98 to 99 alone took weeks of baal runs, so in the end we may be doing 1000's of runs per level again, basically bringing us back to efficient boss/area runs, over and over...and over...
the ONLY thing different now in d3 is the elite mobs and the 15% extra xp from each stack of neph buff, so the grind wont be AS long but just as brutal...so now they expect us to spend the next few months on this new grind, to get to 99 paragon, so we dont need mf gear anymore, but by the time we get there, our gear/stats will be so rediculously overpowered, there may not be a real point even then.
so...we have 100's of hours ahead of us killing the same weak mobs/bosses, and as we gain levels, it gets easier, 99 will be a joke unless they scale the mobs/bosses up, there has to be something fixed/changed, currently we will be gods at this rate.
yup the game isnt' meant to be strategic raiding it's a dungeon hack and slash fun game. Something everyone can have fun in and not need to be hardcore/team ventrillo/ 40 man raiding type of stuff. This is what blizzard wants just like D2 hope in have some fun if you get bored just stop playing it's not meant to be a hardcore progression game.
...Because it's still farming just for the sake of farming, there's no goal in the game that would actually require more gear. It's definitely a good start though.
it's a dungeon hack and slash, all about character progression it's not a game about content progression. It's about making the best character in the world through training like dragonball z / naruto train to become the best. If you want raids / content progression get ready for MoP next month. Plus you wanna get your character best possible for pvp as well in the future.
Plus the majority of the players complained the game was to hard in the first place and oh can't do co op it's to hard so they are fixing that so that the majority of the players can have fun as it is a hack and slash type of game not a hardcore raiding game. Sorry if your that type of person but your not getting that out of this game bro.
...Because it's still farming just for the sake of farming, there's no goal in the game that would actually require more gear. It's definitely a good start though.
I'd say PvP will be the anwer to your question. Then it will be farming for the sake of being able to farm fast AND kill people better.
The paragon levels thing is just the thing to keep me going.. somthing to make progress on!!
Getting more and more MF will be AWESOME - seeing more and more legendaries drop as you level
Shedding my current MF gear will be nice too!
I do think another "mode" will be a nice addition to an expansion - an endless dungeon or somthing - but for now, this mode is WAY more than I was hoping to see prior to the PvP patch - and its plenty to get me excited / reamped to grind away for the perty shiny portraits and stats/mf/gf
Both thumbs up.
It will make every single play session feel like you've made at least a little bit of progress. Right now you just make a run and either you get an upgrade or you don't.
Also, people who struggle with entering Inferno will now have a ray of hope - that if they reach a high enough Paragon level they'll start getting the gear necessary.
Only concern is that this is potentially exploitable by botters...
All I can say is that I like it. Its pretty cool that I'll still be able to switch my MF set out till I start gettin up there in paragon lvls which will be forever lol
Jesus Christ, people bitch that they wanted a long-term grinding progression like getting lvl 99 in D2.. All you did was farm gear while killing Baal, Pindle, Meph millions and millions of times. Now they give you that in the form of paragon levels, they are buffing set items and legendaries, buffing skills, and people still aren't f'ing happy. I think this is a good overall solution for people who feel they need to see an exp bar move once they hit 60.
I voted amazing, but really this sort of stuff should have been in the game at launch. Cause they seriously overestimated Inferno difficulty (for SC, I still haven't beaten it HC).
To their credit, Blizzard has implemented extraordinary change in a very short amount of time (approx13 weeks). If it had taken them 6 months, 12 months or more to get on the ball, I would be caught complaining. However they took the critique of the players and acted immediately to improve the game.
One of the biggest endgame complaints I've seen from all the people who fondly remember D2 as the greatest gift to planet Earth since the invention of beer is that D2 did not have a level cap, and the grind to 99 was annoying and terribly long but at least gave you a sense of accomplishing something. Now that they have negated this complaint, I wonder what the haters will pick next as their shining example of D2 win and D3 fail.
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Wise ElderI'm assuming down the road, this was their quick fix for now to keep people busy
Why? Why does the game need an endless dungeon or some other new endgame content? It's not an MMORPG, there is no expectation of new content on a fixed or semi-fixed schedule to keep your attention from wandering. Instead it's an ARPG, where the focus is on grinding the same content over and over and making incremental improvements to your character, each one small and inconsequential but eventually adding up to a massively overpowered character.
The constant call for some new endgame progression system just doesn't make sense to me. That's never what this genre was about. And yes, I know D2 had uber-tristram, but that was added years after the expansion came out, and it was not a true endless progression system, it was simply one more thing to run over and over and over.
I agree with that. The best part about D2 for me anyways, was being able to "solo 8 player hell cows". It was never about seeing new content or anything. I liked to do Orb, Orb, nova nova nova nova down to the point where It didn't seem fair :Thumbs Up:
*edit* That was before botted Baal runs became the must-do for 99.
- Irritating boss gear swapping is still in place until you grind 100 levels. It's called "grind" here because you need to do repetitive stuff to *make the annoying go away*, you are motivated to remove negatives rather than work towards a positive. Solving a problem after a years worth of grind is not a solution.
- With no more MF vs stats dichotomy, there will eventually be no reason to scrounge all of inferno. Maxed paragon toons might as well do nothing but azmo runs.
- 100 levels of stat buffs on top of that were not really needed IMO. As mentioned Inferno is easy enough with top end gear, which is what lvl 100s can get anyway with all that MF/GF. Now it's just pushing towards faceroll. Then again people loved this in D2 so they must be happy. :/
- Oh and newbies can enjoy even higher prices when scrounging the AH now that maxed toons will be making 4X the gold casually, actually more than that given the repair sinks will not keep up. On the plus side maybe it will prompt people to invest in RMAH once again to avoid that runaway inflation.
Do you realize how long it is going to take you to cause your MF gear to be obsolete?
Listen, I did the same thing as you and I have about 230 MF pre-NV on gear that I can effectively clear A2/A3 with. That said, I think the changes are great.
- Over time your base character will become stronger
- Eventually you will receive max MF without needing any MF on gear
What's to complain about? All this means is you're going to get more/better gear as you level up your paragon.. and then eventually you'll be able to shed that gear for more survivability.
Dude, how many hours do you think it will take for your paragon levels to make your MF/GF useless? MORE TO DO is not the same as MORE TO DO FOREVER AND AFTER.
You grinded away and bought/found countless great items with stats/mf/gf and now you feel cheated? Comprehensibly so, and yet you will be one of the people that should benefit most from the new system, as you already closed the gap to the cap and should be able to get better items faster and slowly switch 'em out with your current gear. As for people with no MF/GF gear, well, they will have to grind hours on end to get to where you are now.
That is, if you take advantage of the situation now. I can see a lot of people going pure dps to get paragon levels, but that means ridiculously low MF for quite some time.
I wont' be bothering to gear swap (and I never have) on my "grind," into paragon levels. I would be shocked if it took a year to do aswell.
With the other stat and affix combinations needed for an ideal gearset, that's just wrong. There will still be plenty to hunt for in the absence of mf as a most-desired stat.
Lots of players wanted the D2 difficulty curve back, but obviously not everyone shared that sentiment. Still, I would be surprised if the majority of players thought the game was too easy. I think the opposite is true.
I thought most players didn't like using the AH? Anyway, I think market trends should be the last thing on Blizzard's mind when making changes to improve gameplay and replayability. It's also worth noting that economic hypothesis doesn't really add up. If most players are making tons of gold and finding tons of great items, the market value of those entry-level items will be very low. The real inflation will take place where demand warrants it, way up at the top. I don't think that's of any concern to newbies.
Still will be neat to check out, though.
...Because it's still farming just for the sake of farming, there's no goal in the game that would actually require more gear. It's definitely a good start though.
Jesus Christ, people bitch that they wanted a long-term grinding progression like getting lvl 99 in D2.. All you did was farm gear while killing Baal, Pindle, Meph millions and millions of times. Now they give you that in the form of paragon levels, they are buffing set items and legendaries, buffing skills, and people still aren't f'ing happy. I think this is a good overall solution for people who feel they need to see an exp bar move once they hit 60.
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yup the game isnt' meant to be strategic raiding it's a dungeon hack and slash fun game. Something everyone can have fun in and not need to be hardcore/team ventrillo/ 40 man raiding type of stuff. This is what blizzard wants just like D2 hope in have some fun if you get bored just stop playing it's not meant to be a hardcore progression game.
it's a dungeon hack and slash, all about character progression it's not a game about content progression. It's about making the best character in the world through training like dragonball z / naruto train to become the best. If you want raids / content progression get ready for MoP next month. Plus you wanna get your character best possible for pvp as well in the future.
Plus the majority of the players complained the game was to hard in the first place and oh can't do co op it's to hard so they are fixing that so that the majority of the players can have fun as it is a hack and slash type of game not a hardcore raiding game. Sorry if your that type of person but your not getting that out of this game bro.
The paragon levels thing is just the thing to keep me going.. somthing to make progress on!!
Getting more and more MF will be AWESOME - seeing more and more legendaries drop as you level
Shedding my current MF gear will be nice too!
I do think another "mode" will be a nice addition to an expansion - an endless dungeon or somthing - but for now, this mode is WAY more than I was hoping to see prior to the PvP patch - and its plenty to get me excited / reamped to grind away for the perty shiny portraits and stats/mf/gf
It will make every single play session feel like you've made at least a little bit of progress. Right now you just make a run and either you get an upgrade or you don't.
Also, people who struggle with entering Inferno will now have a ray of hope - that if they reach a high enough Paragon level they'll start getting the gear necessary.
Only concern is that this is potentially exploitable by botters...
Yeah, I've figured that like a month or two ago.
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Wise ElderTo their credit, Blizzard has implemented extraordinary change in a very short amount of time (approx13 weeks). If it had taken them 6 months, 12 months or more to get on the ball, I would be caught complaining. However they took the critique of the players and acted immediately to improve the game.
Gratz to Blizz on a job well done.
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