Kripp basically just ripped his ideas from DAoC, which I really enjoyed as a game, but it's sad to see no originality from him. All the people who think he's such a genius, let's give credit where it's due... These aren't Kripp's ideas.
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Playing a Wizard. Looking for Demon Hunters to play with.
Some of you are so focused on the destination you completely forget to enjoy the journey.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Oh for certain!
My own so-called "end game" right now is replaying the entire game, and when I take a break, I read "Diablo III - The Order", and try to find links between the book and the lore within the game. That alone make makes it worth it for me. And then when I'm done for the day, I discuss the story with my 74-year old dad who doesn't play games, and his interest alone keeps me coming back for more.
Marks my words. Give it 40 to 50 years or so, and the whole story, from all authors, starting from Diablo 1 and going all the way through Diablo III and whatever is still to come, will be held with the same regard then as we do today for the epic Tolkien stories, "The Silmarillion", "The Hobbit" and "The Lord Of The Rings".
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Peter Alexander DzomlijaDo you hear, huh? The Alpha and The Omega? Death and Rebirth? And as you die, so shall I be Reborn...
I like what Athene mentioned...
with Hardcore PvP Arena / Spectator Mode...and Ultimate Death yes/no Option..
With great prices, Titels and crap for the Winner...
Ladder = accomplishment? That's a concept I'll never understand.
Do people really need that virtual mean to keep their self esteem high? In this day and age?
Being able to do as much within a game, enjoy absolutely every part of it (cinematics, story, lore, art, soundtrack, effects, all gameplay possibilities in all classes and different builds as I level up, different end-game builds), have fun with friends while laughing at dumb things, and make it all as time-efficient as possible (considering I don't have 80 hours+ a week anymore for games) is my idea of an accomplishment. And it's saddening to me how "hardcore gamers" nowadays are moving away from that.
I wish people would just let go of the need to show how good and unique they are within a media that's supposed to be a time out from the serious stuff that's real life (where you actually have to prove to others how important you are, specially in your profession).
Yeah, I'm 100% into competitive gaming. Hell, I love HoN, LoL and DotA 1/2 because of that competitive feeling..
What I don't get is some saying a game is broken (not just D3, but most games that lack such feature) because it lacks a way to show others or yourself how good someone is it's almost as if having a ladder was more important than being a good game..
I think maybe the problem is that most see D3 as a sort of spiritual successor of WoW. Or they thought that D2's ladder meant something to most Diablo fans. To me D3 is more related to Minecraft (dumb fun, nothing else matters) than anything else and we knew this design philosophy from the beginning (2008), so what's the big deal?
This is the reason why I am not fond of players like e.g. Athene, Kripp or Kungen - and can not understand the hype around them. In addition, I think it is pretentious to publish such "recommendations". Sure, at the moment, I can spend many hours on this game but do not feel the urge to shout out my opinion about aspects of the game which would probably alter the game experience for other players in a negative way. Especially, considering the fact that Diablo never was about progress and world firsts. It was and is about steady improvement of my character(s).
Bingo?
And that's why I like Day9 (from SC2). He doesn't analyse and take games seriously to "be the best", or to prove something.. He does that for fun... so we can be better gamers (as he says). All that to experience a whole new level of fun gaming (some things you can only do when you're good like multipronged harassment with multiple Medivacs + Marines :))
Ladder = accomplishment? That's a concept I'll never understand.
Do people really need that virtual mean to keep their self esteem high? In this day and age?
Being able to do as much within a game, enjoy absolutely every part of it (cinematics, story, lore, art, soundtrack, effects, all gameplay possibilities in all classes and different builds as I level up, different end-game builds), have fun with friends while laughing at dumb things, and make it all as time-efficient as possible (considering I don't have 80 hours+ a week anymore for games) is my idea of an accomplishment. And it's saddening to me how "hardcore gamers" nowadays are moving away from that.
I wish people would just let go of the need to show how good and unique they are within a media that's supposed to be a time out from the serious stuff that's real life (where you actually have to prove to others how important you are, specially in your profession).
It's really weird. I read your post and found myself agreeing with you on all of your points, yet at the same time I do find myself sympathising with some of Kripp's points as well.
I have a bit of a dilemma at the moment. On one hand, it's a very fun game to play with friends, particularly very casual gamers. I've had a lot of friends who would never touch a game like league of legends or starcraft pick up this game, and that's exciting. At the same time, I find myself looking enviously at my OTHER more hardcore friends who've raced to finish the game. I find myself hating the fact that they've had an easy time in the game because they picked the 'right' class from the start and don't have to grind for gear. So I find myself rushing forward to complete the game as quickly as possible as well. Only thing is that means I sacrifice the time I could spend playing with my more casual friends, because lets face it, it's not very fun for anyone when a lvl 60 Inferno Act 2 Barbarian joins a nightmare level game.
Maybe I too have become a victim of this move by 'hardcore gamers' towards playing just so that I can show off to other people, and I've lsot the ability to simply a game, the way I once enjoyed Diablo 2. I don't know. But I think my own gamer soul-searching reflects a lot of the soul-searching that the D3 community is going through now and will be going through for a while.
Ladder = accomplishment? That's a concept I'll never understand.
Do people really need that virtual mean to keep their self esteem high? In this day and age?
Being able to do as much within a game, enjoy absolutely every part of it (cinematics, story, lore, art, soundtrack, effects, all gameplay possibilities in all classes and different builds as I level up, different end-game builds), have fun with friends while laughing at dumb things, and make it all as time-efficient as possible (considering I don't have 80 hours+ a week anymore for games) is my idea of an accomplishment. And it's saddening to me how "hardcore gamers" nowadays are moving away from that.
I wish people would just let go of the need to show how good and unique they are within a media that's supposed to be a time out from the serious stuff that's real life (where you actually have to prove to others how important you are, specially in your profession).
It's not about showing off. I do challenges for almost every game I've played. I don't think I've ever posted about it though. I joined every Iron Man in D2 I saw, I did plenty of naked/grey gear runs in HC, Plenty of FFX challenge runs(favorite game~ :D), Speed runs, WoW soloing, Terraria Challenges, etc. It's not about showing off, It's about setting a goal and completeing it.
Sure, Some players boast. You know that guy who posts his DPS in wow after every fight, or people who actually act like Athene's Character. I don't really see that in Kripp, which is why I actually like the guy. This isn't a case of "qq I want to show off" It's a case of: I'm done with the game. Now what? Diablo 2 had the HUGE leveling grind to 99, which was nearly impossible - and deaths were punished by HUGE hits to XP. Achievments might have done something if they weren't so damned easy. Leveling 1-60 takes only a couple of days of 'hardcore' casual playing.
Reaching a point where you can farm Act 1/act3 inferno isn't really that rough - especially for non-monks. (Tornado Sprint Barb build, Zombie Bears, Any wiz/Dh builds) and even for monks it's only ~50M for a set of gear that can faceroll the game(This may sound like a lot to some of you - but keep in mind, this is it. There is nothing after this). Now what? Do you just continue to farm? For what reason? You have no harder bosses, You have no extra content, You have no harder mobs... You just have this.
What kripp is proposing is a system that allows you to continue to work towards a goal. It's not about bragging, it's not about showing off, It's about giving you something to aim for that gives Insignificant, or aesthetic bonuses(which again - aren't all about bragging rights. you can only show off to 3 other people anyways - I can't imagine this being a big deal).
Kripp's suggestions are fine. I kinda even like some of them, so my comments weren't directed at the video or him, just at the idea of "we need the next challenge naow". I mean, let's not kid ourselves, it doesn't matter how hard something is, eventually people will get there, that's one thing WoW taught us.
Also, as far as I'm aware, both Kripp and Athene got fed tons of gear and gold early in the game, and started farming Inferno way before the average joe. And the fact that these guys can clear the game doesn't mean anything for Blizzard when 80% (or whatever %) of their playerbase is just now reaching Inferno (if that, about half of my friends are still in Nightmare). Not everyone is a "serious gamer". And that's just fine.
Reaching a point where you can farm Act 1/act3 inferno isn't really that rough
But only now, right? After a month and a half of high-end lvl 63 gear being injected into the economy. And now that we know what stats and builds work. In the first week, I remember people saying Act 1 Inferno was impossible because scavengers would 1-shot everyone. A week (and a half?) later they reached Act 2 brickwall, which caused an even bigger outrage "being 1 shot isn't challenging, it's cheap, I hate you blizzctivision". Even Kripp was supposedly "stuck" on Act 3 with "arguably the best gear in the world" (and had to bypass most elite mobs).
The point some of us are trying to make is that there is that end-game un-achieveable goal, and that is having the absolute best gear in the game (which is a utopic goal), or maybe to gear up and get ready for PvP?
To me, personally, end game is rolling new classes, feeling all the classes first hand, experiencing all the randomization in the game, and after I'm done, trying to get those "crazy" achievements (like the naked ones, which I didn't get yet). I'm also making sure I get gear that's cheap and that could be used for crazy builds (like a Melee Wiz, which I'm almost able to play as in Act 2 Inf and that's awesome to me).
To guys like Kripp, it's about "now what Blizz, your move, gimme something I cannot do to grind for the next 5 months and have a false sense of accomplishment". That's how I see it at least..
It's ok, Drez. I certainly understand and respect that. I liked playing DotA as if my life depended on it, and I certainly understand the feeling. Everyone enjoys games differently.
My main point was: 1) imho, this ship has sailed... the developers don't like the idea in the slightlest, and there's so much to fix they probably aren't planning on adding more features (that they don't want in the game in the first place, and that they'll have to balance/fix as well); 2) we can and should provide feedback, but a lot of people aren't doing it in a calm and reasonable manner (it's one thing to say "I personally don't like how this is working right now", and it's another to say "they should do it like this, otherwise the game is crap and Jay Wilson should die" - which we see a lot).
I can see them bringing back ladders in an expansion if most of the feedback they get is towards that direction. Tbh, I guess I'd personally like it a lot (I grew fond of the SC2 ladder system, even though I didn't care in the beta), but I don't see it happening
I dislike posting this because I'm bumping... but I'm now pretty sure it's either him or a hired goon that goes onto every forum when he is doing something or releasing a video, making threads like these to pool viewers and generate ad money.
At least he's more respectable than Athene though.
Athene, outside of video games, actually does productive things that have an effect on millions of others. His gaming persona is entirely that: a persona for gaming. If you're taking his videos personally, or seriously, you've been trolled successfully.
What does Kripp do that's so much more respectable? Live with his parents?
While I don't necessarily agree with all of his ideas, the past level 60 idea is pretty solid. Though I'd hope it wouldn't take forever if it reset. Releasing special gear you can only geat during a season would be sweet. Yeah there's a lot they can do. I'd really hope they WOULDN'T balance this game around PVP though. He says nerf the crap out of crit because PVP would be stupid. Yeah it would be stupid, but that doesn't mean PVE should suffer. You put hidden nerfs in the game Life steal nerfed by 80%, but we won't tell you unless you notice that tip in the loading screen that shows for 1.5 seconds!
So whatever, do the same shit in PVP then. Bonus Crit damage caps out at 200% or something, diminishing returns on all stats. I don't care, I don't pvp just make it it's own seperate game basically if you're gonna work on it, don't let it affect the main focus of this game. I like what he suggests about making characters powerful, and lessening the stats on gear. (prim stats like vit/dex/str), it would fit more with the 1% bonus crit chance too. Still personally, I think they need to buff up Attack Speed again, make some buffs to a lot of the Skills in the game. And lower NV stacks needed to about 3-4. 5 just takes too long to gain for people who only wanna play for 30m or maybe an hour.
While I don't necessarily agree with all of his ideas, the past level 60 idea is pretty solid. Though I'd hope it wouldn't take forever if it reset. Releasing special gear you can only geat during a season would be sweet. Yeah there's a lot they can do. I'd really hope they WOULDN'T balance this game around PVP though. He says nerf the crap out of crit because PVP would be stupid. Yeah it would be stupid, but that doesn't mean PVE should suffer. You put hidden nerfs in the game Life steal nerfed by 80%, but we won't tell you unless you notice that tip in the loading screen that shows for 1.5 seconds!
So whatever, do the same shit in PVP then. Bonus Crit damage caps out at 200% or something, diminishing returns on all stats. I don't care, I don't pvp just make it it's own seperate game basically if you're gonna work on it, don't let it affect the main focus of this game. I like what he suggests about making characters powerful, and lessening the stats on gear. (prim stats like vit/dex/str), it would fit more with the 1% bonus crit chance too. Still personally, I think they need to buff up Attack Speed again, make some buffs to a lot of the Skills in the game. And lower NV stacks needed to about 3-4. 5 just takes too long to gain for people who only wanna play for 30m or maybe an hour.
So you want to make a game that applies to casuals more.. casual? The idea of beefing characters and dropping stats is basically Diablo 2 all over again, it's not going to change anything.
My overall assessment of the whole thread + the video is a lot of people barely played Diablo 2 or even Diablo 1 for that matter and are mainly MMO people trying an ARPG out. The only difference between D2 and D3 is instead of farming cows or Baal to get to lvl 99 you farm perfect iLvl 63 gear. The first approach has a static value that you can identify and associate progression with, the other is random and is hard to associate progression too.
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Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
Great suggestions. Even if you get just 1 stat point to spend after each "plus" level above 60, that would be enough incentive for people to continue on. The AH is the great equalizer and it is just a matter of time until beating inferno is mainstream. There needs to be an endgame.
Great suggestions. Even if you get just 1 stat point to spend after each "plus" level above 60, that would be enough incentive for people to continue on. The AH is the great equalizer and it is just a matter of time until beating inferno is mainstream. There needs to be an endgame.
Lol, i know what would happen if they did this. Massive spam on the forums "WHY SHOULD I PLAY FOR 1 FUCKIN STAT POINT, DOES NOT CHANGE ANYTHING YOU SUCK SO HARD BLIZZ!"
They will never be able to please everyone. As it is, the community is so terrible with their permanent "it's too easy/too hard" attitude, they can't change a thing without getting massive hate.
By the way: everywhere I read "please don't let this game be like wow" and yet all the suggestions to "fix" this game are the ones used in wow. "give us a rank system" "give us titles" "give us a pvp reward system based on rating"
This community is really crazy at times.
Haha yup, my new favourite is people crying about not being to switch skills because of the NV buff... do you remember the outcry when they introduced the new skill system.
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Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
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Oh for certain!
My own so-called "end game" right now is replaying the entire game, and when I take a break, I read "Diablo III - The Order", and try to find links between the book and the lore within the game. That alone make makes it worth it for me. And then when I'm done for the day, I discuss the story with my 74-year old dad who doesn't play games, and his interest alone keeps me coming back for more.
Marks my words. Give it 40 to 50 years or so, and the whole story, from all authors, starting from Diablo 1 and going all the way through Diablo III and whatever is still to come, will be held with the same regard then as we do today for the epic Tolkien stories, "The Silmarillion", "The Hobbit" and "The Lord Of The Rings".
Future: d3 = WoW
Only hope: PvP ladder that resets every 6 months.
with Hardcore PvP Arena / Spectator Mode...and Ultimate Death yes/no Option..
With great prices, Titels and crap for the Winner...
That sounds so fucking Awsome
Do people really need that virtual mean to keep their self esteem high? In this day and age?
Being able to do as much within a game, enjoy absolutely every part of it (cinematics, story, lore, art, soundtrack, effects, all gameplay possibilities in all classes and different builds as I level up, different end-game builds), have fun with friends while laughing at dumb things, and make it all as time-efficient as possible (considering I don't have 80 hours+ a week anymore for games) is my idea of an accomplishment. And it's saddening to me how "hardcore gamers" nowadays are moving away from that.
I wish people would just let go of the need to show how good and unique they are within a media that's supposed to be a time out from the serious stuff that's real life (where you actually have to prove to others how important you are, specially in your profession).
Competition.
What I don't get is some saying a game is broken (not just D3, but most games that lack such feature) because it lacks a way to show others or yourself how good someone is it's almost as if having a ladder was more important than being a good game..
I think maybe the problem is that most see D3 as a sort of spiritual successor of WoW. Or they thought that D2's ladder meant something to most Diablo fans. To me D3 is more related to Minecraft (dumb fun, nothing else matters) than anything else and we knew this design philosophy from the beginning (2008), so what's the big deal?
And that's why I like Day9 (from SC2). He doesn't analyse and take games seriously to "be the best", or to prove something.. He does that for fun... so we can be better gamers (as he says). All that to experience a whole new level of fun gaming (some things you can only do when you're good like multipronged harassment with multiple Medivacs + Marines :))
It's really weird. I read your post and found myself agreeing with you on all of your points, yet at the same time I do find myself sympathising with some of Kripp's points as well.
I have a bit of a dilemma at the moment. On one hand, it's a very fun game to play with friends, particularly very casual gamers. I've had a lot of friends who would never touch a game like league of legends or starcraft pick up this game, and that's exciting. At the same time, I find myself looking enviously at my OTHER more hardcore friends who've raced to finish the game. I find myself hating the fact that they've had an easy time in the game because they picked the 'right' class from the start and don't have to grind for gear. So I find myself rushing forward to complete the game as quickly as possible as well. Only thing is that means I sacrifice the time I could spend playing with my more casual friends, because lets face it, it's not very fun for anyone when a lvl 60 Inferno Act 2 Barbarian joins a nightmare level game.
Maybe I too have become a victim of this move by 'hardcore gamers' towards playing just so that I can show off to other people, and I've lsot the ability to simply a game, the way I once enjoyed Diablo 2. I don't know. But I think my own gamer soul-searching reflects a lot of the soul-searching that the D3 community is going through now and will be going through for a while.
It's not about showing off. I do challenges for almost every game I've played. I don't think I've ever posted about it though. I joined every Iron Man in D2 I saw, I did plenty of naked/grey gear runs in HC, Plenty of FFX challenge runs(favorite game~ :D), Speed runs, WoW soloing, Terraria Challenges, etc. It's not about showing off, It's about setting a goal and completeing it.
Sure, Some players boast. You know that guy who posts his DPS in wow after every fight, or people who actually act like Athene's Character. I don't really see that in Kripp, which is why I actually like the guy. This isn't a case of "qq I want to show off" It's a case of: I'm done with the game. Now what? Diablo 2 had the HUGE leveling grind to 99, which was nearly impossible - and deaths were punished by HUGE hits to XP. Achievments might have done something if they weren't so damned easy. Leveling 1-60 takes only a couple of days of 'hardcore' casual playing.
Reaching a point where you can farm Act 1/act3 inferno isn't really that rough - especially for non-monks. (Tornado Sprint Barb build, Zombie Bears, Any wiz/Dh builds) and even for monks it's only ~50M for a set of gear that can faceroll the game(This may sound like a lot to some of you - but keep in mind, this is it. There is nothing after this). Now what? Do you just continue to farm? For what reason? You have no harder bosses, You have no extra content, You have no harder mobs... You just have this.
What kripp is proposing is a system that allows you to continue to work towards a goal. It's not about bragging, it's not about showing off, It's about giving you something to aim for that gives Insignificant, or aesthetic bonuses(which again - aren't all about bragging rights. you can only show off to 3 other people anyways - I can't imagine this being a big deal).
Also, as far as I'm aware, both Kripp and Athene got fed tons of gear and gold early in the game, and started farming Inferno way before the average joe. And the fact that these guys can clear the game doesn't mean anything for Blizzard when 80% (or whatever %) of their playerbase is just now reaching Inferno (if that, about half of my friends are still in Nightmare). Not everyone is a "serious gamer". And that's just fine.
But only now, right? After a month and a half of high-end lvl 63 gear being injected into the economy. And now that we know what stats and builds work. In the first week, I remember people saying Act 1 Inferno was impossible because scavengers would 1-shot everyone. A week (and a half?) later they reached Act 2 brickwall, which caused an even bigger outrage "being 1 shot isn't challenging, it's cheap, I hate you blizzctivision". Even Kripp was supposedly "stuck" on Act 3 with "arguably the best gear in the world" (and had to bypass most elite mobs).
The point some of us are trying to make is that there is that end-game un-achieveable goal, and that is having the absolute best gear in the game (which is a utopic goal), or maybe to gear up and get ready for PvP?
To me, personally, end game is rolling new classes, feeling all the classes first hand, experiencing all the randomization in the game, and after I'm done, trying to get those "crazy" achievements (like the naked ones, which I didn't get yet). I'm also making sure I get gear that's cheap and that could be used for crazy builds (like a Melee Wiz, which I'm almost able to play as in Act 2 Inf and that's awesome to me).
To guys like Kripp, it's about "now what Blizz, your move, gimme something I cannot do to grind for the next 5 months and have a false sense of accomplishment". That's how I see it at least..
My main point was: 1) imho, this ship has sailed... the developers don't like the idea in the slightlest, and there's so much to fix they probably aren't planning on adding more features (that they don't want in the game in the first place, and that they'll have to balance/fix as well); 2) we can and should provide feedback, but a lot of people aren't doing it in a calm and reasonable manner (it's one thing to say "I personally don't like how this is working right now", and it's another to say "they should do it like this, otherwise the game is crap and Jay Wilson should die" - which we see a lot).
I can see them bringing back ladders in an expansion if most of the feedback they get is towards that direction. Tbh, I guess I'd personally like it a lot (I grew fond of the SC2 ladder system, even though I didn't care in the beta), but I don't see it happening
Athene, outside of video games, actually does productive things that have an effect on millions of others. His gaming persona is entirely that: a persona for gaming. If you're taking his videos personally, or seriously, you've been trolled successfully.
What does Kripp do that's so much more respectable? Live with his parents?
So whatever, do the same shit in PVP then. Bonus Crit damage caps out at 200% or something, diminishing returns on all stats. I don't care, I don't pvp just make it it's own seperate game basically if you're gonna work on it, don't let it affect the main focus of this game. I like what he suggests about making characters powerful, and lessening the stats on gear. (prim stats like vit/dex/str), it would fit more with the 1% bonus crit chance too. Still personally, I think they need to buff up Attack Speed again, make some buffs to a lot of the Skills in the game. And lower NV stacks needed to about 3-4. 5 just takes too long to gain for people who only wanna play for 30m or maybe an hour.
I knew using the wrong word would affect someone's sanity
So you want to make a game that applies to casuals more.. casual? The idea of beefing characters and dropping stats is basically Diablo 2 all over again, it's not going to change anything.
My overall assessment of the whole thread + the video is a lot of people barely played Diablo 2 or even Diablo 1 for that matter and are mainly MMO people trying an ARPG out. The only difference between D2 and D3 is instead of farming cows or Baal to get to lvl 99 you farm perfect iLvl 63 gear. The first approach has a static value that you can identify and associate progression with, the other is random and is hard to associate progression too.
Haha yup, my new favourite is people crying about not being to switch skills because of the NV buff... do you remember the outcry when they introduced the new skill system.