I have no idea how that's suppose to be relevant. You can stop playing after normal if you want. The reason to keep playing is if you want more and more difficult challenges with the same content.
There is no "challenge", thats the whole point.
Oh, I get it. This is about your ego, not game design.
As usual when 'bad design' or 'poor implementation' is cited, that's what's really at stake. It just wasn't designed or implemented *his way*.
Inferno and the loot system are working as intended. This isn't WoW.
Diablo 2 wasn't WoW either.
Yes, Diablo 3 isn't Diablo 2, which doesn't really address the issue of the flaws.
The average gamer - I have dozens of friends playing D3 right now, and some of them died a ton of times in Normal alone. Do not underestimate yourself, people like us are good/dedicated gamers. I'm on Inferno already, that's not something 80% of the playerbase has accomplished (or will accomplish in the next weeks, or ever).
I got caught by new mechanics every now and then which outright destroyed me or even died due to not knowing the enemies yet (the first one was the tree at Fields of Misery with his poison burst). Soul Rippers/Lashers with frozen insta-killed me even though I was well geared. The "average gamer concept" is not something we properly understand, and I believe a company like Blizzard probably knows more about it than us.
On the whole "new mechanics" aren't there, I couldn't disagree more. A rare with Molten/Frozen/Jailer on Hell is really hard to beat, but add on Horde or Invulnerable Minion and you're in for an absolutely 100% different challenge. And if think those stats can either be on a weak Zombie or on 3 huge Unburieds (with passive knockback), it's damn scary and challenging. To me, that's an amazing design.
And, imho, the most technical expression isn't "loot grinding", it's "loot farming". You don't need to kill the absolute same enemy on the same place for hours. It is possible to find upgrades on the AH after farming for 30 mins. And even in drops (my first rare drop on Inferno was a boot upgrade).
I don't buy that at all. Gear opens the door. A solid build lets you go through. Only skill lets you actually walk down the hall.
^
I feel like a lot of people are really underestimating their own skills. If you can manage resources, understand abilities, create a balanced build, fight efficiently (rotating skills and using cooldowns smartly), make use of the AH and use your gold well, kite a fast/horde/jailer enemy - then congratulations, you're a pretty good gamer. Most people probably can't accomplish that in the first week.
But you will only be able to show all that skill on Inferno when you have an absolute minimum required for that (and that gear check is good for the game longevity imho).
On a sidenote, I do agree with you that Legendaries in D2 had more interesting "themes" to them. And I also agree that class balance and scalability is too much of an issue right now. If you can get your dps from 20k to 90k throughout a difficulty, you'll roll over Act 1 and get 1 shot in Act IV. I definitely don't like how Inferno (and its items) scales right now.
end game would be considered level 60, correct? But if no level 60 gear items drop in hell and start dropping in inferno, which is an "extra-mode" to you, then even end game gear doesnt have a remote chance of being obtained unless you play said "extra-mode".
i guess my point would be that if it were a true "grind impossible content" type of mode it wouldnt have its own loot pool as it does where 1 inferno blue drop will blow away an A4 rare. There would be some sort of items specified for lvl 60 characters dropping in hell.
and yes can stop in normal, but if you did you wouldnt even have all of your skills. the game is designed to be played til at least 60 and unlock all your abilites, which they new the majority of players would. inferno is not an extra mode. not at all.
You seem to be trying to establish a semantic category that isn't really applicable.
The game is designed to provide long term replay-ability in repetitive, but randomized content. You seem to want it to be linear with an end game accessible to everyone. That's not the way it's built.
You can dislike it. That's fine. I don't think it's for everyone. But it many of us signed up for this. It's not broken. It's not bad design. It's Diablo 3.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I grew up gaming without internet forums. The entire phenomenon of being upset with a game developer makes no sense to me. No sense. I cannot imagine spending my time and energy being upset about something I choose to do for recreation.
I agree on the Legendaries. And yes, it does matter what colour an item is. The legendaries should be, as their title says Legendary. They should be always better than blues, for crying out loud. Blizzard was too stupid on this,
No, you are wrong. This is not World of Warcraft.
WoW is a great game in its own rights that I will most likely continue to play but it has warped your minds and convinced you that prettier colors must equal better gear. This is not the case in the Diablo series and anyone who spent any significant amount of time playing D2 has no trouble grasping this concept.
"This aint WoW"
Seriously? Is that the only argument your pea brain can muster?
Am I wrong?
There are plenty of things I don't care for in D3, but the color of my items are the least of my concerns.
Oh, I get it. This is about your ego, not game design.
This forum really has gone full retard hasn't it?
Challenge is part of game design and how rewarding a game is, you god damn moron.
I know what you were trying to say. I skipped the explanation step that it was an argument to protect your ego, but here it is:
If the game were challenging in the "right way" you could beat it, because you're awesome. If you can't beat it, it must be bad design, because that way it's someone else fault that you didn't meet the expectation you set for yourself.
It's lazy and transparent justification.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I grew up gaming without internet forums. The entire phenomenon of being upset with a game developer makes no sense to me. No sense. I cannot imagine spending my time and energy being upset about something I choose to do for recreation.
I agree on the Legendaries. And yes, it does matter what colour an item is. The legendaries should be, as their title says Legendary. They should be always better than blues, for crying out loud. Blizzard was too stupid on this,
No, you are wrong. This is not World of Warcraft.
WoW is a great game in its own rights that I will most likely continue to play but it has warped your minds and convinced you that prettier colors must equal better gear. This is not the case in the Diablo series and anyone who spent any significant amount of time playing D2 has no trouble grasping this concept.
"This aint WoW"
Seriously? Is that the only argument your pea brain can muster?
Am I wrong?
There are plenty of things I don't care for in D3, but the color of my items are the least of my concerns.
Yes, of course you are wrong. Just because someone says something you disagree with doesn't allow you to throw out the WoW card. No one mentioned WoW....and its not even a valid argument any damn ways....
Its the intellectual equivalent of saying, "you mad brah?"
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Do you want to get scammed? Perhaps a nice keylogger?
"Just google "diablo 3 gold guide" and magical rainbow covered demons will assault your eyes."
Oh, I get it. This is about your ego, not game design.
This forum really has gone full retard hasn't it?
Challenge is part of game design and how rewarding a game is, you god damn moron.
I know what you were trying to say. I skipped the explanation step that it was an argument to protect your ego, but here it is:
If the game were challenging in the "right way" you could beat it, because you're awesome. If you can't beat it, it must be bad design, because that way it's someone else fault that you didn't meet the expectation you set for yourself.
It's lazy and transparent justification.
Its not hard to beat, and its bad design, because its not challenging in the right ways.
check and mate.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Do you want to get scammed? Perhaps a nice keylogger?
"Just google "diablo 3 gold guide" and magical rainbow covered demons will assault your eyes."
Incredibly good vid. This is what I've been saying all along. Diablo 3's difficulty is poorly implented, instead of playing smart and figuring out the game you're stuck constantly having to resort to cheap tactics.
It is immensely hard to beat. I'm not bad at games. I've played Diablo since release. I'm having a good challenge in Hell mode. If inferno is hard at all it will be hard.
The difficulty is not implemented badly. Our community expects to win day one inferno. This isn't possible. You have to farm. You have to get the items necessary to beat it. People carried over the WoW mentality of "If someone beat it its easy." and want to win just like the "pros" have. These guys didn't even beat the packs of champs. They just ran through doing bosses and quests. Lets stop saying its easy and start playing the longevity game people!
You're missing the point. It shouldn't be the way you want, because you don't want Diablo. Play the games you want to play. Complaining that apples aren't oranges makes no sense whatsoever.
So what, I should stop playing a game because one aspect doesn't seem appealing to me? I love diablo, I'm a diablo fan since 90s, stop telling me what I want or what should I do because you don't know me. I just think they screwed up when it comes to difficulty and gear system but that's all, the game's great and I really like it.
You came to a public forum to complain, dude. It sure doesn't sound like you love Diablo 3.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I grew up gaming without internet forums. The entire phenomenon of being upset with a game developer makes no sense to me. No sense. I cannot imagine spending my time and energy being upset about something I choose to do for recreation.
Oh, I get it. This is about your ego, not game design.
This forum really has gone full retard hasn't it?
Challenge is part of game design and how rewarding a game is, you god damn moron.
I know what you were trying to say. I skipped the explanation step that it was an argument to protect your ego, but here it is:
If the game were challenging in the "right way" you could beat it, because you're awesome. If you can't beat it, it must be bad design, because that way it's someone else fault that you didn't meet the expectation you set for yourself.
It's lazy and transparent justification.
Its not hard to beat, and its bad design, because its not challenging in the right ways.
check and mate.
Right, I got it. If it was good design, you'd have beaten it, obviously.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I grew up gaming without internet forums. The entire phenomenon of being upset with a game developer makes no sense to me. No sense. I cannot imagine spending my time and energy being upset about something I choose to do for recreation.
The problem with the 'difficulty' is you basically have to get very specific stats, use very specific abilities, and play very very cautiously. This removes all customisation and fun, I shouldn't have to say It's not fun to have all my abilities bar my Spirit Generator used completely and runed for defence.
I feel like the fact they said they basically doubled internal difficulty is the reason for this, its obvious they havn't tested it, they should have just threw in more champions with the 4th affix and buffed health leaving damage the same.
That's true in the first week since release. It's not supposed to be wide open right away. Loyal fans BEGGED for extremely high bars to overcome. Build diversity and creative play is something that will bear out over time.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I grew up gaming without internet forums. The entire phenomenon of being upset with a game developer makes no sense to me. No sense. I cannot imagine spending my time and energy being upset about something I choose to do for recreation.
Unfortunately, this thread is just another thread where 'bad design' or 'poorly implemented' isn't actually true. It's just code for "They didn't do it the exact way I wanted!"
Welcome to the Diablo series. If it doesn't have what you want, play something else.
This above comment is just another comment where 'its fine' or 'qq play another game' isn't actually true. It's just code for "I am a blizzard fanboy and cannot stand to hear legitimate criticism of a blizzard game!'"
+1 from me also. This is exactly what is wrong with people on this and other forums. Legitimate criticism is not crying or whining - people need to get that in their heads.
So,there's something better with saying "I don't like it, so it's bad design?" The issue most of us who call the "legitimate criticism" QQing have, is that the issues usually boil down to "Blizzard said why they did it that way and I don't like it, so instead of saying I disagree with them, I'm going to say they made a mistake."
The problem with the 'difficulty' is you basically have to get very specific stats, use very specific abilities, and play very very cautiously. This removes all customisation and fun, I shouldn't have to say It's not fun to have all my abilities bar my Spirit Generator used completely and runed for defence.
I feel like the fact they said they basically doubled internal difficulty is the reason for this, its obvious they havn't tested it, they should have just threw in more champions with the 4th affix and buffed health leaving damage the same.
Well, their method to make it harder means they intrinsically can't balance it. They're purposely making it too hard for their testers. They have also said they don't want to have skills be must have, and are going to look at that for tweaking purpose.
Oh, I get it. This is about your ego, not game design.
This forum really has gone full retard hasn't it?
Challenge is part of game design and how rewarding a game is, you god damn moron.
I know what you were trying to say. I skipped the explanation step that it was an argument to protect your ego, but here it is:
If the game were challenging in the "right way" you could beat it, because you're awesome. If you can't beat it, it must be bad design, because that way it's someone else fault that you didn't meet the expectation you set for yourself.
It's lazy and transparent justification.
Its not hard to beat, and its bad design, because its not challenging in the right ways.
check and mate.
Am I missing something? How isn't it hard? I think all the posts about players getting one shot and not able to get past Act X in Difficulty Y say otherwise. Further, it's bad design because you dislike it? I think the challenge fits for what Diablo has always been - difficulty comes from needing better loot and the monsters having groups of insane affixes. Both happen. As you have previously stated, the people complaining are full of legitimate criticism, so can you explain how I'm wrong? Really - I want to know what I'm doing wrong so I can go solo stomp inferno.
Its not hard to beat, and its bad design, because its not challenging in the right ways.
check and mate.
Mysticjbyrd perhaps you could actually contribute something constructive in one of your posts.
People seriously need to do their homework when referring to Diablo 2.
In diablo 2 going from 1 difficulity to the next was all about gear and nothing but gear. Levels did account for something but over all items were the main issue. Nightmare was hard because they made resistance a negative off the bat, and same for Hell, with -75% resistance. You HAD to farm resist equipment like mad and it actually was more important than DPS. That was not a great game design either.
And there were only 2 kinds of mobs, melee or ranged. Diablo 3's monster design is head over heals better. And definitely Elites/Champions are a great addition. (if gosh-darned frustrating at the same time)
Also Synergies did not appear until Patch 1.10 after LoD was released. Same goes with leveling till 99 at a reduced XP gain. That was also not released till Patch 1.10 in late 2003. Diablo 2 was released in 2000 and LoD in 2001.
People talk about Runes, runewords, and all these additions were all in LoD which was an expansion.
It is so easy to talk about what's wrong in Diablo 3 but they have done a heck of a lot right for a first game. Am I 100% happy? No, I have issues with some things as well, but you know what that's where the expansion comes in and they can now do a lessons learnt and add that end game content that some think is missing.
All of you whiners want Diablo 3 to last another 10 years, and so does everyone else who is a diablo fan. But that means make sure the base game which again was redesigned from the ground up is solid like Diablo 2 was. And with lessons learnt (learning) we can expect the expansion to add to Diablo 3's legacy.
And the design for loot drops not being as much use was the same as in Diablo2. You got to nightmare and get great items ... for normal. You go to hell and get great items for nightmare, and only very rarely you find items actually good for Hell. That'ss the diablo design. Don't like it then you've obviously never played diablo.
Bottomline, leveling from 1-60 is fun. Thru Hell the game is still awesome and fun. Inferno... not sure cos at this point I'm not sure if items will help and I've not seen posts of anyone getting what they call Tier 3 loot either. Might make a difference just like going from Normal to Nightmare to Hell. Switching out a few items makes a HUGE difference. Imagine that.
Biggest problem in diablo 3, in my opinion, that everytime you join a new difficult is like a new expansion in WoW. Old items are useless, dmg boost and so on. And second : That the item drops are max -10 lvl of your charakter level. Thats my the auction house is full of endcontent items and imbablues/yellows. Change that and the game would be far better than diablo 2. Because the rest is awesome!
/opinion
Stop out leveling the content then... seriously that's not something to complain about.
The WoW approach to items after each difficulty is a valid point but think of it this way. "I'm getting my ass handed to me, I'm going to farm gear in Nightmare because I can faceroll everything and still get better loot"
or
"I'm getting my ass handed to me I'm going back an act or two to find gear but it will still be fun and challenging".
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
Basically what the point is, that the "difficulty" aspect of the game is moreso that you get one shot in inferno. It is pretty much some feel a lazy design in that a blizzard dev. is just like oh not enough gear? "ONE SHOT" you died go back to the following act and farm again. Whereas in other diablo games you could at least try kitting around and hitting using some sort of "skill" to counter the monsters. Whereas here it is just a one shot your dead, nothing i could have done changes.
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Diablo 2 wasn't WoW either.
Yes, Diablo 3 isn't Diablo 2, which doesn't really address the issue of the flaws.
This forum really has gone full retard hasn't it?
Challenge is part of game design and how rewarding a game is, you god damn moron.
The average gamer - I have dozens of friends playing D3 right now, and some of them died a ton of times in Normal alone. Do not underestimate yourself, people like us are good/dedicated gamers. I'm on Inferno already, that's not something 80% of the playerbase has accomplished (or will accomplish in the next weeks, or ever).
I got caught by new mechanics every now and then which outright destroyed me or even died due to not knowing the enemies yet (the first one was the tree at Fields of Misery with his poison burst). Soul Rippers/Lashers with frozen insta-killed me even though I was well geared. The "average gamer concept" is not something we properly understand, and I believe a company like Blizzard probably knows more about it than us.
On the whole "new mechanics" aren't there, I couldn't disagree more. A rare with Molten/Frozen/Jailer on Hell is really hard to beat, but add on Horde or Invulnerable Minion and you're in for an absolutely 100% different challenge. And if think those stats can either be on a weak Zombie or on 3 huge Unburieds (with passive knockback), it's damn scary and challenging. To me, that's an amazing design.
And, imho, the most technical expression isn't "loot grinding", it's "loot farming". You don't need to kill the absolute same enemy on the same place for hours. It is possible to find upgrades on the AH after farming for 30 mins. And even in drops (my first rare drop on Inferno was a boot upgrade).
^
I feel like a lot of people are really underestimating their own skills. If you can manage resources, understand abilities, create a balanced build, fight efficiently (rotating skills and using cooldowns smartly), make use of the AH and use your gold well, kite a fast/horde/jailer enemy - then congratulations, you're a pretty good gamer. Most people probably can't accomplish that in the first week.
But you will only be able to show all that skill on Inferno when you have an absolute minimum required for that (and that gear check is good for the game longevity imho).
On a sidenote, I do agree with you that Legendaries in D2 had more interesting "themes" to them. And I also agree that class balance and scalability is too much of an issue right now. If you can get your dps from 20k to 90k throughout a difficulty, you'll roll over Act 1 and get 1 shot in Act IV. I definitely don't like how Inferno (and its items) scales right now.
You seem to be trying to establish a semantic category that isn't really applicable.
The game is designed to provide long term replay-ability in repetitive, but randomized content. You seem to want it to be linear with an end game accessible to everyone. That's not the way it's built.
You can dislike it. That's fine. I don't think it's for everyone. But it many of us signed up for this. It's not broken. It's not bad design. It's Diablo 3.
Am I wrong?
There are plenty of things I don't care for in D3, but the color of my items are the least of my concerns.
I know what you were trying to say. I skipped the explanation step that it was an argument to protect your ego, but here it is:
If the game were challenging in the "right way" you could beat it, because you're awesome. If you can't beat it, it must be bad design, because that way it's someone else fault that you didn't meet the expectation you set for yourself.
It's lazy and transparent justification.
Yes, of course you are wrong. Just because someone says something you disagree with doesn't allow you to throw out the WoW card. No one mentioned WoW....and its not even a valid argument any damn ways....
Its the intellectual equivalent of saying, "you mad brah?"
"Just google "diablo 3 gold guide" and magical rainbow covered demons will assault your eyes."
check and mate.
"Just google "diablo 3 gold guide" and magical rainbow covered demons will assault your eyes."
I can agree with that but can you offer any suggestions, I honestly don't know how you can make it just as hard but in a different way.
The difficulty is not implemented badly. Our community expects to win day one inferno. This isn't possible. You have to farm. You have to get the items necessary to beat it. People carried over the WoW mentality of "If someone beat it its easy." and want to win just like the "pros" have. These guys didn't even beat the packs of champs. They just ran through doing bosses and quests. Lets stop saying its easy and start playing the longevity game people!
You came to a public forum to complain, dude. It sure doesn't sound like you love Diablo 3.
Right, I got it. If it was good design, you'd have beaten it, obviously.
That's true in the first week since release. It's not supposed to be wide open right away. Loyal fans BEGGED for extremely high bars to overcome. Build diversity and creative play is something that will bear out over time.
So,there's something better with saying "I don't like it, so it's bad design?" The issue most of us who call the "legitimate criticism" QQing have, is that the issues usually boil down to "Blizzard said why they did it that way and I don't like it, so instead of saying I disagree with them, I'm going to say they made a mistake."
Well, their method to make it harder means they intrinsically can't balance it. They're purposely making it too hard for their testers. They have also said they don't want to have skills be must have, and are going to look at that for tweaking purpose.
Am I missing something? How isn't it hard? I think all the posts about players getting one shot and not able to get past Act X in Difficulty Y say otherwise. Further, it's bad design because you dislike it? I think the challenge fits for what Diablo has always been - difficulty comes from needing better loot and the monsters having groups of insane affixes. Both happen. As you have previously stated, the people complaining are full of legitimate criticism, so can you explain how I'm wrong? Really - I want to know what I'm doing wrong so I can go solo stomp inferno.
Mysticjbyrd perhaps you could actually contribute something constructive in one of your posts.
People seriously need to do their homework when referring to Diablo 2.
In diablo 2 going from 1 difficulity to the next was all about gear and nothing but gear. Levels did account for something but over all items were the main issue. Nightmare was hard because they made resistance a negative off the bat, and same for Hell, with -75% resistance. You HAD to farm resist equipment like mad and it actually was more important than DPS. That was not a great game design either.
And there were only 2 kinds of mobs, melee or ranged. Diablo 3's monster design is head over heals better. And definitely Elites/Champions are a great addition. (if gosh-darned frustrating at the same time)
Also Synergies did not appear until Patch 1.10 after LoD was released. Same goes with leveling till 99 at a reduced XP gain. That was also not released till Patch 1.10 in late 2003. Diablo 2 was released in 2000 and LoD in 2001.
People talk about Runes, runewords, and all these additions were all in LoD which was an expansion.
It is so easy to talk about what's wrong in Diablo 3 but they have done a heck of a lot right for a first game. Am I 100% happy? No, I have issues with some things as well, but you know what that's where the expansion comes in and they can now do a lessons learnt and add that end game content that some think is missing.
All of you whiners want Diablo 3 to last another 10 years, and so does everyone else who is a diablo fan. But that means make sure the base game which again was redesigned from the ground up is solid like Diablo 2 was. And with lessons learnt (learning) we can expect the expansion to add to Diablo 3's legacy.
And the design for loot drops not being as much use was the same as in Diablo2. You got to nightmare and get great items ... for normal. You go to hell and get great items for nightmare, and only very rarely you find items actually good for Hell. That'ss the diablo design. Don't like it then you've obviously never played diablo.
Bottomline, leveling from 1-60 is fun. Thru Hell the game is still awesome and fun. Inferno... not sure cos at this point I'm not sure if items will help and I've not seen posts of anyone getting what they call Tier 3 loot either. Might make a difference just like going from Normal to Nightmare to Hell. Switching out a few items makes a HUGE difference. Imagine that.
Stop out leveling the content then... seriously that's not something to complain about.
The WoW approach to items after each difficulty is a valid point but think of it this way. "I'm getting my ass handed to me, I'm going to farm gear in Nightmare because I can faceroll everything and still get better loot"
or
"I'm getting my ass handed to me I'm going back an act or two to find gear but it will still be fun and challenging".
NOT THE ABILITY TO KILL YOU IN ONE HIT LOLWUT