Magic Find and Gold Find are now shared amongst party members. The average combined value of the entire party's Magic and Gold Find applies to all players regardless of location in the game world. The averaged values will not display in the UI
They may change it, but it is not a game breaking problem.
I'll just post a quote from Rectifier on the official forum that explains some of the math behind this decision.
By looking at the item guide we can see how many random affixes certain items can have, and regardless of the actual numbers, we can see that the number of random affixes available per item increases as the character's level increases.
So what does this mean? Well, it means that dps characters focus entirely on their primary stat, crit, attack speed, etc. More importantly, it means that MF characters only have to obtain good values for magic find, but everything else can be whatever they want.
If the MF character has the same number of affixes as the dps/balanced character, then MF characters do not look "gimped" for dps or tankiness. In fact, the MF character will not really "lose" effectiveness.
Example: Two characters have 6 affixes per item slot. We are ignoring jewelry and legendaries for this because the information is not readily available.
This would total 48 slots for armor and 12 slots for weapon/offhand.
Weapons don't get MF in the beta, but offhands can. You would think that all dps characters would dual-wield, but this isn't the case, because the DH, WD, and Wiz actually deal more damage with their off-hands. This means except for the Barb and Monk, MF players theoretically deal the same damage as their counterparts when only looking at the weapon/offhand combination; which means we can eliminate these factors.
Therefore the real difference in dps or tankiness comes from the armor affixes. In total we have 48 affixes for 8 pieces of armor. Assuming that MF takes only one affix, the MF character has 40 affixes to use in whatever way they wish.
Assuming that all the possible affixes are equal in *value* (emphasis on value) and ignoring variance, a non-MF character theoretically has 16.67% extra *value* committed towards dps/tankiness compared to an MF character.
i.e. If the MF character has an equivalent hp of 10,000 then the non-MF character could theoretically have an equivalent hp of 11,667; and if the MF char has 1,000 dps, the non-MF could theoretically have 1,166.7 dps.
Taking all of this theorycrafting and assumptions into consideration, then what is the value of having 3 non-MF chars in a group with an MF char compared to the MF char going solo?
Lets assume the characters have 0, 0, 0 and 100 MF; and they do 116.7, 116.7, 116.7, and 100 DPS respectively.
It would take the group 22.2 seconds to kill a monster with 10k health compared to 100 seconds for the solo MF player (a solo dps player would take 85.7 seconds). With the MF change the group would have 25 MF each but alone the solo would have 100 MF. The group can kill that 10k monster 4.5 times for each time the solo kills the same monster. Since the drops are assigned to each player individually, the amount of drops over time does not change even if the quality does.
With idealised conditions and results, the MF player should gain 12.5% better drops over time in comparison to working alone. The non-MF players should gain 386% better drops over time in comparison to working alone. The massive difference in marginal benefit is what should alarm players who stack MF and be especially wary of running into players who have ZERO magic find.
In conclusion, this would deter players focused on magic find from joining *public* multiplayer games due to the low marginal benefit in comparison to the huge marginal benefit strictly dps/tanky players gain from joining *public* multiplayer games.
This doesn't account for monster scaling because the math of kill times is a little simpler, and it ultimately doesn't make a huge difference in efficiency in killing. Not to mention not all stats are equal, you'd go for the better stats and sacrifice the weaker ones for MF in that scenario.
I'm generally not the type to care if I'm "carrying" people through content, even in WoW, I'm that guy doing 48% of the damage in a random, or telling the guy in LFR to shut up when he says "If you can't do x dps, you suck and you should quit." (So long as there aren't glaring issues preventing completion)
Don't get me wrong, I do NOT want this game to resemble WoW, I played that game for years and I want Diablo to be Diablo, I'm just seeing some of the same mentality here. I don't doubt that at some point, I'll have a great demon killing set with a good MF number, and I wouldn't mind doing public games to help out random people, some of which won't be good players, others will be in fresh gear, and things might go slower, but if I'm going to lose a good portion of my stats to do so, I'll have to rethink that and probably wouldn't do it very often.
Even in the case where I get an awesome group of people who have 100% perfect gear, not sacrificing anything for MF/GF, I'm still providing them a HUGE benefit compared to what I'm getting from them, and I think that needs to be looked at and re-evaluated by Blizzard.
I'm 100% fine with my MF benefiting the group, I'm not fine with it being up to rng whether or not I'm going to have 1/4 of it or 100% of it.
It's not a simple matter of being selfish or not, the math just shows that it has the potential to not scale well in groups unless everyone in your group is stacking it to a decent extent.
A lot of things that I have posted before have been said already in this thread.
I will touch one topic that I didn't see come up here yet, and that's the "sweet spots" for MF.
If MF behaves the same way that it did in D2, then certain amounts result in different general drops. If you're in a certain window of MF, items become more likely to be Set rather than Unique. That's a spot that most people intentionally avoid.
If MF is split and shared, you're going to be getting drops that you no longer want anymore, and you'll be forced to solo in the end so that you can force the specific quality you're searching for to drop.
I'd hope they changed that mechanic if they want this coop MFing to work. If not, then there's no reason to stay in a group. Sure, you'll kill monsters x times faster and get x more drops.. but none of them will be in the range you want unless the group happens to have a combined average of x MF.
well imho cuz we r talking about co-op/rpg game than every1 have some beneficial role of the grp - 1 does insane dmg but got less survivability 2 do good dps but got some survivability and 1 got MF.
now ofc ppl would like to be smart enough and skilled enough to have good dps and survivablity and MF - so those guys can go solo if they don't want to feel used or before hand take into account that u prefer to play co-op so u invest in Mf a little bit (and hopefully u will be in a grp which every1 have abit of MF so it avrage out).
sadly it's not a prefect world so every change bliz will do to try and improve the game in any aspect will have advantages and disadvantages and ofc ppl that like the change and ppl that don't(nothing we can do about it).
now i think they choose the better of 2 evils - cuz in the old system u will always have leechers and u get nothing so ppl will just get used to it or leave the grp . and now u have less leeching cuz if the grp doesn't survive or doesn't kill fast enough the leecher will leave cuz not only it's slow he gets less good gear and ppl who would like to go co-op will sacrifice mf for surviving and if the leecher wants all the mf to himself he will go solo and he will see he doesn't survive good enough or doesn't kill mobs fast enough.
so thats my opinion on the subject - hopefully i mange to lighten the angry abit for ppl which prefer the old system
those threads...
1) people dislike when MF/GF is shared
2) people dislike even more leechers
so shared it is.
viable/not viable ? WTF ?
it's about BALANCE, moving the cursor toward MF/GF is you're comfortable, and vice versa.
People not balanced will get :
1) kicked
2) brought to bring higher average MF/GF knowing that they are somehow useless
How can we be talking for ages of trivial topics like that ?
Because the topics are not trivial and are valid concerns for people...do not write them off as such, please. In an effort to try and cut down on leeching, Blizzard has done the complete opposite by putting in a system that takes away player control and unfairly penalizes players under the pretense that it is good for them. I do commend Blizzard for trying but really...leechers are things that should be dealt with by the community itself and as such Blizzard should be giving the community more tools to deal with such leechers. Not that they will ever go away as they will always be there, but again, this solution is going to end up doing more harm than good and that's what people like myself are concerned about.
And please stop saying that people who have higher than average MF/GF are useless or 'somehow useless'...they are not. They are only useless if they do not know how to play their characters well and balance their stats. Those that do know and those that take the time and effort will be very valuable assets to a group...that is...if they want to have their hard-earned MF/GF forcibly shared and the only way they can enjoy it is by grouping with other MF/Gfers in their range, or by soloing.
Noone says MF characters gonna be useless, but the common consensus is that you are going to sacrifice survivability/killing power for MF/GF/EXP, you can twist it any way but if its not avaraged across team, MF geared character would be leeching from people who have more killing power.
If you not gonna be sacrificing anything for more MF then it doesnt matter either way, the topics exist with assumption that you would be sacrificing in order to stack MF.
But that isn't necessarily true, nor can you accurately quantify just what you will be sacrificing (if much at all) when it comes to killing power and survivability. And you cannot tell me or say that a MFer will be a leecher in every single scenario because there are cases where MFers are not leechers and you know that as well as I do. That is not to say you won't be sacrificing anything as you will be, however, the sacrifices you make MAY NOT be that noticeable in the end, especially with solid gear, sockets, and diminishing returns that will more than likely be on defensive stats like there was in Diablo II.
And I have seen more than a few people wording their posts on other forums about how MFers will be 'useless' because 'they are sacrificing X% of DPS and survivability' when no one actually knows any real quantitative values and no one really knows just how hard/not as hard as they thought Hell and Inferno Modes are going to be. The topics are also existing as I and others have stated...we are concerned that those of us who want to stack MF/GF are being penalized by this 'averaging' because we will supposedly be 'leechers', and yet our hard-earned MF/GF will be leeched from us without any say. This is discouraging us from wanting to party in public groups, which is what Blizzard wants to promote, and in this case they are deterring us and possibly others when they find out how MF/GF 'sharing' works and then they do not wish to participate because of it.
Noone says MF characters gonna be useless, but the common consensus is that you are going to sacrifice survivability/killing power for MF/GF/EXP, you can twist it any way but if its not avaraged across team, MF geared character would be leeching from people who have more killing power.
If you not gonna be sacrificing anything for more MF then it doesnt matter either way, the topics exist with assumption that you would be sacrificing in order to stack MF.
But that isn't necessarily true, nor can you accurately quantify just what you will be sacrificing (if much at all) when it comes to killing power and survivability. And you cannot tell me or say that a MFer will be a leecher in every single scenario because there are cases where MFers are not leechers and you know that as well as I do. That is not to say you won't be sacrificing anything as you will be, however, the sacrifices you make MAY NOT be that noticeable in the end, especially with solid gear, sockets, and diminishing returns that will more than likely be on defensive stats like there was in Diablo II.
And I have seen more than a few people wording their posts on other forums about how MFers will be 'useless' because 'they are sacrificing X% of DPS and survivability' when no one actually knows any real quantitative values and no one really knows just how hard/not as hard as they thought Hell and Inferno Modes are going to be. The topics are also existing as I and others have stated...we are concerned that those of us who want to stack MF/GF are being penalized by this 'averaging' because we will supposedly be 'leechers', and yet our hard-earned MF/GF will be leeched from us without any say. This is discouraging us from wanting to party in public groups, which is what Blizzard wants to promote, and in this case they are deterring us and possibly others when they find out how MF/GF 'sharing' works and then they do not wish to participate because of it.
EXACTLY. This is SUPPOSED to discourage people from playing in groups if they are stacking all MF/GF. There's no reason at all that you'd play in a random group of 3 others while you stack mf/gf other than to use their killing power to get through the monsters. MF/GF farming is supposed to be done either solo or with a group of friends that you know and trust.
And yes while we don't have any hard data showing that stacking all MF/GF will reduce killing power by X%, YOU don't have any data to the contrary. If anything, the first scenario makes more sense then the second, since it's a balance issue. Stacking MF/GF already takes away slots for affixes on items that could be used towards surviving or killing, so it only makes sense that you will die easier / won't kill as fast using a ton of MF/GF.
You could also argue your gold hearted 1%, just trying to play with others while cheekily having all farming gear argument, but this change fixes the rest of the people who would have eventually hated to do random groups because they just know everyone will be trying to farm while hoping everyone else will be in their best +dmg gear.
TLDR; farming is for solo play or with trusted friends, not for joining my group just to use my killing power while you try to farm. This change was very needed.
EXACTLY. This is SUPPOSED to discourage people from playing in groups if they are stacking all MF/GF. There's no reason at all that you'd play in a random group of 3 others while you stack mf/gf other than to use their killing power to get through the monsters. MF/GF farming is supposed to be done either solo or with a group of friends that you know and trust.
And yes while we don't have any hard data showing that stacking all MF/GF will reduce killing power by X%, YOU don't have any data to the contrary. If anything, the first scenario makes more sense then the second, since it's a balance issue. Stacking MF/GF already takes away slots for affixes on items that could be used towards surviving or killing, so it only makes sense that you will die easier / won't kill as fast using a ton of MF/GF.
You could also argue your gold hearted 1%, just trying to play with others while cheekily having all farming gear argument, but this change fixes the rest of the people who would have eventually hated to do random groups because they just know everyone will be trying to farm while hoping everyone else will be in their best +dmg gear.
TLDR; farming is for solo play or with trusted friends, not for joining my group just to use my killing power while you try to farm. This change was very needed.
The first part of your post makes so little sense to me...I mean...basically what you're saying is that you are GLAD that Blizzard is discouraging people from wanting to group with others and not play the way they want to? Am I reading this right, because at the heart of it, that is exactly what you're saying and that just sounds so...wrong. As far as stacking all MF/GF...what if all of my MF/GF that I am stacking is on gear with affixes and sockets that are being used for offensive and defensive purposes? You are correct in saying I have no data, but I can make some pretty fair assumptions that:
1. Defensive stats will have a hard cap or heavy diminishing returns after a point, and you better believe Blizzard will not let you become 100% immune to physical or all magical damage. When that point is reached, any extra is either completely wasted, or will provide such a minimal gain that it is better off not being used and other affixes are desired.
2. Again, you are making a very bad assumption that by stacking a ton of MF you will die easier or kill slower. Now, I will say that you will kill slower, but again, surviving is another matter as already addressed above. HOWEVER, you may not need to sacrifice an affix slot in every single piece of gear, and this isn't an unfair assumption on my part either...Magic Find will have steep diminishing returns. Don't forget also that you have far more pieces of gear to use on your character than in the past so it will be much easier to get to the 'sweet spot' (probably around 400-500% MF), and sockets will be helping you with that as well. No...in the end you won't be sacrificing that much damage and survivability if you play smart and get gear for it, and that's what people don't seem to understand.
It's like a huge "WoW DPS Syndrome" has taken hold of people and if you're not doing 100% of your DPS 100% of the time, if you aren't 100% optimal, if you are even 5% or so less than your potential DPS you are scrub/bottom feeder/leecher/whatever. This is Diablo we're talking about here and never has the series been so unforgivably hard that if you stacked some MF/GF while balancing your stats your group would fail. And also, do not be snide or condescending with me in future posts, please. I have been very civil in this discussion and I don't need you telling me what I will and will not do in terms of my attitude while I am playing. Farming should not just be for soloing or with friends, nor should I feel like I can't wear my hard-earned gear in a group because I have to worry about my MF/GF being auto-leeched by others due to game mechanics beyond my control.
And if I may ask one question...let's say for example I join a group in my balanced, thought out MF/GF gear that also offers me strong DPS and good survivability, and let's say that I am the most geared person there. This is not an uncommon occurrence and will more than likely happen often enough given how Diablo III's grouping system is working right now. Now, let's say that no one else has any MF/GF gear and it's an Inferno game where people are trying to gear up or complete some quests in later acts that I am also trying to complete. In essence they are 'pure DPSers' and I am the MF/GF 'leech' (as would be rudely called by some)...yet who in this case is the real leech? I have better gear, and am doing better damage than they are, and maybe in some cases I am also surviving better than some of them are, which again could very well happen.
See what I mean? It's not all black and white as some are trying to make it out to be because truly...who is really leeching? It most certainly isn't me in this case...I am the one being leeched off of and because of Blizzard's sharing of MF/GF the other party members are leeching off of my hard-earned stats and the only way for me to not have that happen is to solo, or play with friends where I will not mind it. Again, it's not just the fact of leeching...it's the fact that this system is DISCOURAGING pick-up-groups (or whatever else you wish to call them) and more social interaction, which is what Blizzard has been saying they want to promote. Instead of giving the community tools to help deal with the problem of leechers of whatever kind might fit that word (truly), they are trying to solve the problem with a heavy-handed system that will do more harm than good.
It's so blatantly obvious why they've implemented this and Blizzard knows they should have just done it a long time ago. It's clearly more fair and improves gameplay and party dynamics immensely. It's just silly to think those stats should be individual... IMO
Then you would be carrying them either way if your dps stats are also better. Also, system should be aimed at group that has people with about the same level/tier gear. So your example is the only unfortunate one which is valid, that yes u wouldnt be a 'leech' in that situation. What you are suggesting, and most advocates of MF, is that you should get all the benefits of MF in any group, while not benefiting the group with your stats, where you would be getting the benefit of the people who didnt stack MF.
And considering that I worked for the MF stats then I should be able to reap the rewards of my work regardless if I am soling or in a group. Why should I involuntarily be penalized for doing that and no one else is really being penalized by the system? If we really wanted to play fair and go with the whole sharing thing...then as an example:
1. Myself in my MF/GF gear totals around 2,000 average DPS
2. Group Member 2 in his/her gear does 2,750 average DPS with no MF/GF
3. Group Member 3 in his/her gear does 2,250 average DPS with no MF/GF
4. Group member 4 in his her gear does 3,000 average DPS with no MF/GF
So our total DPS is about 10,000 DPS. If all is fair with sharing, then if those without MF/GF are allowed to take from my MF/GF and get averaged amongst all of us, then there will be no problem with DPS being averaged as well, correct? Which means that everyone will average out to 2,500 DPS, and that is fine, yes? DPS wasn't diminished and we all still have the same average killing power so kill time just by DPS alone shouldn't be affected, yes? But do you think the people who have 2,750 and 3,000 DPS are going to like it when their damage numbers are smaller and are forced to be that way because of group sharing? ...I'm thinking they probably won't for the same reason I and others wouldn't want to see our MF numbers slashed without being able to do anything about them and still want the social aspects
Basically what I am getting at is the group is benefiting from me being there as being there as an extra body to help out with monsters, skills and abilities to help either DPS them down, or group benefiting spells that improve their DPS/survivability, or in ways that don't boil down to just numbers. Again, it's not black and white and that's another issue with this sort of argument is that people say it's either you're sharing or you're not. Just because the group isn't benefiting from my MF doesn't mean I'm not helping, nor would that be the case for others either who run into similar situations.
Just because the group isn't benefiting from my MF doesn't mean I'm not helping, nor would that be the case for others either who run into similar situations.
But you are helping less than person with same level gear who focused on dps stats... DPS is already shared by those people killing monsters faster in your group and possibly tanking by having more survivability than you.
Ahhhh, but see...that's what I said. It's NOT just about damage because you cannot put a true quantifiable number on 'helping'. What if I am playing a Monk and my build is designed to be more of a 'tank' and 'mantra' build where I am switching buffs around for the group as needed and holding mobs at bay from those who are more focusing on damage? What if I am a Demon Hunter using traps for slowing, sentries for life/damage reduction, or standing back firing Elemental Arrow runed for cold damage and its slowing effect and have Marked for Death runed so it creates large areas that increase damage from all sources against monsters? Or what if I am the Witch Doctor spawning my minions who are specialized as tanks to help take the heat off melee who are taking a pounding and give them a chance to retreat and heal up where otherwise they would've died? Is that not helping keeping the group alive and contributing?
It's not just DPS that matters and you fell into the whole 'WoW DPS Syndrome' that I had mentioned before. This is a cooperative game that relies upon cooperative play and if my build is designed not around damage but to be a powerful group buffer while still being to do some damage (though obviously not as much as a pure DPSer), then how is that bad? And if that build allows me to sacrifice some DPS stats and get some magic find out of it, but I am doing my part in helping out with the group...how is that bad? Again, it's not black and white.
In the beta, it goes something like this: You join a game, and everyone hops through the waypoint into the cathedral. There, you hack and slash your way through it, until you get to and kill the skeleton king.
But MF will help more on rare mobs than bosses. So what I think you will get, is people doing various "quests". Say they like one area best, so they join that quest. On Inferno, all areas will have level 61 mobs, so they will all be equally viable. I can see this "quest" turning into a "raid night", where you start at the beginning of Inferno, and go through the whole thing over and over again, clearing everything out for the sake of finding the rare mobs and getting loot.
This is their intention, and they have told us this. It is totally going to happen. What's better, is that it is so much fun! And trust me, when you are going through destroying mob pack after pack, you are going to want some good DPS, or you will be there for a very long time pecking at things. And, you will want survivability, because things will have the ability to kill you, and are actually trying to. And you will want some MF, because every bit of MF in the game is going to increase your chances of finding good stuff. Regardless of what others do, you getting more MF will help you get better stuff.
When everyone is godly, what changes? The runs get faster, more efficient. I don't think people will make MF leech characters.
Think about it: If you are speeding through the Cathedral to the skeleton king, you tend to leave mobs here and there. It's a common practice to kill everything but the one or two danglers and keep going. People usually don't kill every little thing they see, especially if they are going for speed. But those without decent DPS, you can see them pecking on things that you can easily kill. It's blatantly obvious. And, if people are going to be that weak (and they will be), they at least need to bring some MF/GF with them.
Is anyone else becoming an increasingly sad panda from all the shared-magic-find threads on the Blizzard forums? People crying about how they don't want to share their magic find, giving utterly moronic rationalizations of why such would be bad.
I cry for humanity :'(
Ugh, I agree.
I think that Bashiok's answers were perfect, though. People are creating these hypothetical situations that are really never going to happen. Glad he put them in their place.
and let's say that I am the most geared person there.
Then you would be carrying them either way if your dps stats are also better. Also, system should be aimed at group that has people with about the same level/tier gear. So your example is the only unfortunate one which is valid, that yes u wouldnt be a 'leech' in that situation.
What you are suggesting, and most advocates of MF, is that you should get all the benefits of MF in any group, while not benefiting the group with your stats, where you would be getting the benefit of the people who didnt stack MF.
I'm fine with my MF benefiting the group, but I don't want to lose my drops because I decided to group up with random people. All you have to do is look at the quote in my previous post about how broken the benefit is of just being some noob who doesn't bother balancing mf into their stats and hoping someone like me, someone who gives a group wide free loot buff while losing minimal effectiveness, joins.
well there will always be a better/geared player and worse/less geared player(1 of the points of customization, tho if match making is through gear than it's more or less even), now the chances some will have gear so bad that all his stats r not beneficial to grp it's slim, and the only disadvantage is or he goes some where else or he slack when it comes to pace or he doesn't play his char good. now if he is trying but still not so good other ppl will leave(cuz he is a "leecher") and not give him a chance to try or if bliz will give tools to deal with "leechers" like him he will get removed and thats anti social, or on the other hand if that player is so good he can kill by himself mobs in a 4 man grp and he will stay away from grp which is a disadvantage cuz he doesn't help with killing and make other mobs harder to kill atleast his gold, magic find and xp is shared so he some what helps the grp( some ppl will be leechers not because they suck, it's because he is so good he goes by himself and every1 have a hard time killing) so technically dps is also shared by the fact each kill whether u help killing it or not, u got loot and xp from it(if u were in close proximity to the kill).
so imo they did a good choice to share those spacific stats and not give tools to leader or whoever which can grif ppl or by removing them cuz they don't have the right set of skills on a specific class or don't play good enough or the stats on gear isn't optimal - or he used that guy to get to a specific location and now he wants all the glory/loot so he remove other ppl or that 1 person so he have easier time to kill that boss to get the there.
ofc any decision by dev team there will be disadvantages and advantages or ppl abuse it in any way. but out of past experience on their part they took the best decision they could make( like from WoW around sharing loot and removing ppl in grp or from D2 also about sharing loot and mf leechers or any kind of leechers).
just my opinion tho - hopefully i mange to help the discussion.
Is anyone else becoming an increasingly sad panda from all the shared-magic-find threads on the Blizzard forums? People crying about how they don't want to share their magic find, giving utterly moronic rationalizations of why such would be bad.
I cry for humanity :'(
Ugh, I agree.
I think that Bashiok's answers were perfect, though. People are creating these hypothetical situations that are really never going to happen. Glad he put them in their place.
Dont worry, people are idiots. It only seems worse now,. because they have more of a voice. Which oddly sounds an awful lot like "herp derp".
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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
It's just the leechers of D2 that are complaining. QQ My MF Gear that i found by complete random chance is now shared with everyone, that's totally unfair. If i played In a Solo match i'd probably get my ass whooped and handed too me, but it's okay cause my MF is so incredibly high.
If people are crying about MF being shared... they must not have been breast fed or shared as a child. Spoiled Kids playing video games ruins the image of gamers. WoW has made kids needy, obsessive and incredibly selfish.
SHARE YOUR MF WITH THE DPS, AND THE DPS WILL FARM THE KILLS FOR YOU. How is that not fair ?
Meh in diablo 2 not like stacking MF helped unless you solo'd anyways...Last hit = MF...therefor the people with actual gear got the kill and mf was like 0% for most boss kills lol
It seems to me the problem is not that people have to share, its that they are effectively losing stats any time they are above the group MF/GF average. You can argue all day whether a MF person is helping enough, but taking away stats to group is always a bad gameplay mechanic. In my opinion, there is actually a fairly easy solution to solve this problem.
First, cut all MF/GF on items to 25% of what they currently are. This is for balance with the rest of the changes.
Now, when your in a full group, you SUM up MF/GF and the total is what everyone gets for their stats. No loss of stats, only gains, and if someone is stacked with full MF they still can not "leech". Effectively total possible MF/GF stays the same as it currently is, so this should not be a balance issue either.
So, you may be wondering what can you do to make it so that not only full groups are effective. Simply take the MF/GF of the group, average it, and add that to the sum for each player missing. So, if you have a group of three, you add the average in once to make up for that missing player, or playing solo you just multiply your MF/GF by four. Just make this a buff and its all good.
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They may change it, but it is not a game breaking problem.
This doesn't account for monster scaling because the math of kill times is a little simpler, and it ultimately doesn't make a huge difference in efficiency in killing. Not to mention not all stats are equal, you'd go for the better stats and sacrifice the weaker ones for MF in that scenario.
I'm generally not the type to care if I'm "carrying" people through content, even in WoW, I'm that guy doing 48% of the damage in a random, or telling the guy in LFR to shut up when he says "If you can't do x dps, you suck and you should quit." (So long as there aren't glaring issues preventing completion)
Don't get me wrong, I do NOT want this game to resemble WoW, I played that game for years and I want Diablo to be Diablo, I'm just seeing some of the same mentality here. I don't doubt that at some point, I'll have a great demon killing set with a good MF number, and I wouldn't mind doing public games to help out random people, some of which won't be good players, others will be in fresh gear, and things might go slower, but if I'm going to lose a good portion of my stats to do so, I'll have to rethink that and probably wouldn't do it very often.
Even in the case where I get an awesome group of people who have 100% perfect gear, not sacrificing anything for MF/GF, I'm still providing them a HUGE benefit compared to what I'm getting from them, and I think that needs to be looked at and re-evaluated by Blizzard.
I'm 100% fine with my MF benefiting the group, I'm not fine with it being up to rng whether or not I'm going to have 1/4 of it or 100% of it.
It's not a simple matter of being selfish or not, the math just shows that it has the potential to not scale well in groups unless everyone in your group is stacking it to a decent extent.
I will touch one topic that I didn't see come up here yet, and that's the "sweet spots" for MF.
If MF behaves the same way that it did in D2, then certain amounts result in different general drops. If you're in a certain window of MF, items become more likely to be Set rather than Unique. That's a spot that most people intentionally avoid.
If MF is split and shared, you're going to be getting drops that you no longer want anymore, and you'll be forced to solo in the end so that you can force the specific quality you're searching for to drop.
I'd hope they changed that mechanic if they want this coop MFing to work. If not, then there's no reason to stay in a group. Sure, you'll kill monsters x times faster and get x more drops.. but none of them will be in the range you want unless the group happens to have a combined average of x MF.
D3: LF 2 DPS 2 MF
That pretty much sums it all up doesn't it?
now ofc ppl would like to be smart enough and skilled enough to have good dps and survivablity and MF - so those guys can go solo if they don't want to feel used or before hand take into account that u prefer to play co-op so u invest in Mf a little bit (and hopefully u will be in a grp which every1 have abit of MF so it avrage out).
sadly it's not a prefect world so every change bliz will do to try and improve the game in any aspect will have advantages and disadvantages and ofc ppl that like the change and ppl that don't(nothing we can do about it).
now i think they choose the better of 2 evils - cuz in the old system u will always have leechers and u get nothing so ppl will just get used to it or leave the grp . and now u have less leeching cuz if the grp doesn't survive or doesn't kill fast enough the leecher will leave cuz not only it's slow he gets less good gear and ppl who would like to go co-op will sacrifice mf for surviving and if the leecher wants all the mf to himself he will go solo and he will see he doesn't survive good enough or doesn't kill mobs fast enough.
so thats my opinion on the subject - hopefully i mange to lighten the angry abit for ppl which prefer the old system
best regards,
Arrok
Because the topics are not trivial and are valid concerns for people...do not write them off as such, please. In an effort to try and cut down on leeching, Blizzard has done the complete opposite by putting in a system that takes away player control and unfairly penalizes players under the pretense that it is good for them. I do commend Blizzard for trying but really...leechers are things that should be dealt with by the community itself and as such Blizzard should be giving the community more tools to deal with such leechers. Not that they will ever go away as they will always be there, but again, this solution is going to end up doing more harm than good and that's what people like myself are concerned about.
And please stop saying that people who have higher than average MF/GF are useless or 'somehow useless'...they are not. They are only useless if they do not know how to play their characters well and balance their stats. Those that do know and those that take the time and effort will be very valuable assets to a group...that is...if they want to have their hard-earned MF/GF forcibly shared and the only way they can enjoy it is by grouping with other MF/Gfers in their range, or by soloing.
But that isn't necessarily true, nor can you accurately quantify just what you will be sacrificing (if much at all) when it comes to killing power and survivability. And you cannot tell me or say that a MFer will be a leecher in every single scenario because there are cases where MFers are not leechers and you know that as well as I do. That is not to say you won't be sacrificing anything as you will be, however, the sacrifices you make MAY NOT be that noticeable in the end, especially with solid gear, sockets, and diminishing returns that will more than likely be on defensive stats like there was in Diablo II.
And I have seen more than a few people wording their posts on other forums about how MFers will be 'useless' because 'they are sacrificing X% of DPS and survivability' when no one actually knows any real quantitative values and no one really knows just how hard/not as hard as they thought Hell and Inferno Modes are going to be. The topics are also existing as I and others have stated...we are concerned that those of us who want to stack MF/GF are being penalized by this 'averaging' because we will supposedly be 'leechers', and yet our hard-earned MF/GF will be leeched from us without any say. This is discouraging us from wanting to party in public groups, which is what Blizzard wants to promote, and in this case they are deterring us and possibly others when they find out how MF/GF 'sharing' works and then they do not wish to participate because of it.
EXACTLY. This is SUPPOSED to discourage people from playing in groups if they are stacking all MF/GF. There's no reason at all that you'd play in a random group of 3 others while you stack mf/gf other than to use their killing power to get through the monsters. MF/GF farming is supposed to be done either solo or with a group of friends that you know and trust.
And yes while we don't have any hard data showing that stacking all MF/GF will reduce killing power by X%, YOU don't have any data to the contrary. If anything, the first scenario makes more sense then the second, since it's a balance issue. Stacking MF/GF already takes away slots for affixes on items that could be used towards surviving or killing, so it only makes sense that you will die easier / won't kill as fast using a ton of MF/GF.
You could also argue your gold hearted 1%, just trying to play with others while cheekily having all farming gear argument, but this change fixes the rest of the people who would have eventually hated to do random groups because they just know everyone will be trying to farm while hoping everyone else will be in their best +dmg gear.
TLDR; farming is for solo play or with trusted friends, not for joining my group just to use my killing power while you try to farm. This change was very needed.
The first part of your post makes so little sense to me...I mean...basically what you're saying is that you are GLAD that Blizzard is discouraging people from wanting to group with others and not play the way they want to? Am I reading this right, because at the heart of it, that is exactly what you're saying and that just sounds so...wrong. As far as stacking all MF/GF...what if all of my MF/GF that I am stacking is on gear with affixes and sockets that are being used for offensive and defensive purposes? You are correct in saying I have no data, but I can make some pretty fair assumptions that:
1. Defensive stats will have a hard cap or heavy diminishing returns after a point, and you better believe Blizzard will not let you become 100% immune to physical or all magical damage. When that point is reached, any extra is either completely wasted, or will provide such a minimal gain that it is better off not being used and other affixes are desired.
2. Again, you are making a very bad assumption that by stacking a ton of MF you will die easier or kill slower. Now, I will say that you will kill slower, but again, surviving is another matter as already addressed above. HOWEVER, you may not need to sacrifice an affix slot in every single piece of gear, and this isn't an unfair assumption on my part either...Magic Find will have steep diminishing returns. Don't forget also that you have far more pieces of gear to use on your character than in the past so it will be much easier to get to the 'sweet spot' (probably around 400-500% MF), and sockets will be helping you with that as well. No...in the end you won't be sacrificing that much damage and survivability if you play smart and get gear for it, and that's what people don't seem to understand.
It's like a huge "WoW DPS Syndrome" has taken hold of people and if you're not doing 100% of your DPS 100% of the time, if you aren't 100% optimal, if you are even 5% or so less than your potential DPS you are scrub/bottom feeder/leecher/whatever. This is Diablo we're talking about here and never has the series been so unforgivably hard that if you stacked some MF/GF while balancing your stats your group would fail. And also, do not be snide or condescending with me in future posts, please. I have been very civil in this discussion and I don't need you telling me what I will and will not do in terms of my attitude while I am playing. Farming should not just be for soloing or with friends, nor should I feel like I can't wear my hard-earned gear in a group because I have to worry about my MF/GF being auto-leeched by others due to game mechanics beyond my control.
And if I may ask one question...let's say for example I join a group in my balanced, thought out MF/GF gear that also offers me strong DPS and good survivability, and let's say that I am the most geared person there. This is not an uncommon occurrence and will more than likely happen often enough given how Diablo III's grouping system is working right now. Now, let's say that no one else has any MF/GF gear and it's an Inferno game where people are trying to gear up or complete some quests in later acts that I am also trying to complete. In essence they are 'pure DPSers' and I am the MF/GF 'leech' (as would be rudely called by some)...yet who in this case is the real leech? I have better gear, and am doing better damage than they are, and maybe in some cases I am also surviving better than some of them are, which again could very well happen.
See what I mean? It's not all black and white as some are trying to make it out to be because truly...who is really leeching? It most certainly isn't me in this case...I am the one being leeched off of and because of Blizzard's sharing of MF/GF the other party members are leeching off of my hard-earned stats and the only way for me to not have that happen is to solo, or play with friends where I will not mind it. Again, it's not just the fact of leeching...it's the fact that this system is DISCOURAGING pick-up-groups (or whatever else you wish to call them) and more social interaction, which is what Blizzard has been saying they want to promote. Instead of giving the community tools to help deal with the problem of leechers of whatever kind might fit that word (truly), they are trying to solve the problem with a heavy-handed system that will do more harm than good.
http://huntersc.tv
And considering that I worked for the MF stats then I should be able to reap the rewards of my work regardless if I am soling or in a group. Why should I involuntarily be penalized for doing that and no one else is really being penalized by the system? If we really wanted to play fair and go with the whole sharing thing...then as an example:
1. Myself in my MF/GF gear totals around 2,000 average DPS
2. Group Member 2 in his/her gear does 2,750 average DPS with no MF/GF
3. Group Member 3 in his/her gear does 2,250 average DPS with no MF/GF
4. Group member 4 in his her gear does 3,000 average DPS with no MF/GF
So our total DPS is about 10,000 DPS. If all is fair with sharing, then if those without MF/GF are allowed to take from my MF/GF and get averaged amongst all of us, then there will be no problem with DPS being averaged as well, correct? Which means that everyone will average out to 2,500 DPS, and that is fine, yes? DPS wasn't diminished and we all still have the same average killing power so kill time just by DPS alone shouldn't be affected, yes? But do you think the people who have 2,750 and 3,000 DPS are going to like it when their damage numbers are smaller and are forced to be that way because of group sharing? ...I'm thinking they probably won't for the same reason I and others wouldn't want to see our MF numbers slashed without being able to do anything about them and still want the social aspects
Basically what I am getting at is the group is benefiting from me being there as being there as an extra body to help out with monsters, skills and abilities to help either DPS them down, or group benefiting spells that improve their DPS/survivability, or in ways that don't boil down to just numbers. Again, it's not black and white and that's another issue with this sort of argument is that people say it's either you're sharing or you're not. Just because the group isn't benefiting from my MF doesn't mean I'm not helping, nor would that be the case for others either who run into similar situations.
Ahhhh, but see...that's what I said. It's NOT just about damage because you cannot put a true quantifiable number on 'helping'. What if I am playing a Monk and my build is designed to be more of a 'tank' and 'mantra' build where I am switching buffs around for the group as needed and holding mobs at bay from those who are more focusing on damage? What if I am a Demon Hunter using traps for slowing, sentries for life/damage reduction, or standing back firing Elemental Arrow runed for cold damage and its slowing effect and have Marked for Death runed so it creates large areas that increase damage from all sources against monsters? Or what if I am the Witch Doctor spawning my minions who are specialized as tanks to help take the heat off melee who are taking a pounding and give them a chance to retreat and heal up where otherwise they would've died? Is that not helping keeping the group alive and contributing?
It's not just DPS that matters and you fell into the whole 'WoW DPS Syndrome' that I had mentioned before. This is a cooperative game that relies upon cooperative play and if my build is designed not around damage but to be a powerful group buffer while still being to do some damage (though obviously not as much as a pure DPSer), then how is that bad? And if that build allows me to sacrifice some DPS stats and get some magic find out of it, but I am doing my part in helping out with the group...how is that bad? Again, it's not black and white.
But MF will help more on rare mobs than bosses. So what I think you will get, is people doing various "quests". Say they like one area best, so they join that quest. On Inferno, all areas will have level 61 mobs, so they will all be equally viable. I can see this "quest" turning into a "raid night", where you start at the beginning of Inferno, and go through the whole thing over and over again, clearing everything out for the sake of finding the rare mobs and getting loot.
This is their intention, and they have told us this. It is totally going to happen. What's better, is that it is so much fun! And trust me, when you are going through destroying mob pack after pack, you are going to want some good DPS, or you will be there for a very long time pecking at things. And, you will want survivability, because things will have the ability to kill you, and are actually trying to. And you will want some MF, because every bit of MF in the game is going to increase your chances of finding good stuff. Regardless of what others do, you getting more MF will help you get better stuff.
When everyone is godly, what changes? The runs get faster, more efficient. I don't think people will make MF leech characters.
Think about it: If you are speeding through the Cathedral to the skeleton king, you tend to leave mobs here and there. It's a common practice to kill everything but the one or two danglers and keep going. People usually don't kill every little thing they see, especially if they are going for speed. But those without decent DPS, you can see them pecking on things that you can easily kill. It's blatantly obvious. And, if people are going to be that weak (and they will be), they at least need to bring some MF/GF with them.
This is coming from an experienced MFer.
Ugh, I agree.
I think that Bashiok's answers were perfect, though. People are creating these hypothetical situations that are really never going to happen. Glad he put them in their place.
I'm fine with my MF benefiting the group, but I don't want to lose my drops because I decided to group up with random people. All you have to do is look at the quote in my previous post about how broken the benefit is of just being some noob who doesn't bother balancing mf into their stats and hoping someone like me, someone who gives a group wide free loot buff while losing minimal effectiveness, joins.
so imo they did a good choice to share those spacific stats and not give tools to leader or whoever which can grif ppl or by removing them cuz they don't have the right set of skills on a specific class or don't play good enough or the stats on gear isn't optimal - or he used that guy to get to a specific location and now he wants all the glory/loot so he remove other ppl or that 1 person so he have easier time to kill that boss to get the there.
ofc any decision by dev team there will be disadvantages and advantages or ppl abuse it in any way. but out of past experience on their part they took the best decision they could make( like from WoW around sharing loot and removing ppl in grp or from D2 also about sharing loot and mf leechers or any kind of leechers).
just my opinion tho - hopefully i mange to help the discussion.
best regards,
Arrok
Epicurus
If people are crying about MF being shared... they must not have been breast fed or shared as a child. Spoiled Kids playing video games ruins the image of gamers. WoW has made kids needy, obsessive and incredibly selfish.
SHARE YOUR MF WITH THE DPS, AND THE DPS WILL FARM THE KILLS FOR YOU. How is that not fair ?
First, cut all MF/GF on items to 25% of what they currently are. This is for balance with the rest of the changes.
Now, when your in a full group, you SUM up MF/GF and the total is what everyone gets for their stats. No loss of stats, only gains, and if someone is stacked with full MF they still can not "leech". Effectively total possible MF/GF stays the same as it currently is, so this should not be a balance issue either.
So, you may be wondering what can you do to make it so that not only full groups are effective. Simply take the MF/GF of the group, average it, and add that to the sum for each player missing. So, if you have a group of three, you add the average in once to make up for that missing player, or playing solo you just multiply your MF/GF by four. Just make this a buff and its all good.