Is anyone else becoming an increasingly sad panda from all the shared-magic-find threads on the Blizzard forums? People crying about how they don't want to share their magic find, giving utterly moronic rationalizations of why such would be bad.
Those guys wants to leech so badly. They want to join your game, do very little, play noob and probably woman too and hope you will have petty on them and not kick them while they are leeching your dps and get items. In coop game people basically share dps and MF/GF now. It's fair. BUT... if Blizzard allow game to be easy at higher levels (Inferno) so that people will be able to kill same fast with MF or without it then and only then it will become a problem if Blizz don't fix it fast ofc. Btw, I see many leechers finding friends/guilds who build high MF and run content together.
How will shared magic find become a problem if inferno turns out to be easier than expected?
Because it won't matter if you have 300dps and your high MF friend only 150dps when you both kill everything in one strike and can clear the are same fast. Then he will just give you MF for free as your dps won't be benefiting him.
Ah well it's true that he would have an advantage over me in single player then. But this scenario is extreeeeemely unlikely =)
I posted this on eu forums a few minutes ago in another thread complaining about shared mf.
Actually their current system of everyone getting a cut of the total magic find will work brilliantly.
Scenario 1: everyone gathers both dps and magic find gear.
Result: This would essantially be the same as when magic find would not be shared. You gain more loot than solo because your killrate is higher in group.
Scenario 2: 2 people max out their dps gear, and 2 people max out their mf gear.
Result: Because min-maxing is usually the most rewarding option in group play, this group would gain more loot than the scenario 1 group, but are gimped in single-player, or other less coordinated groups. In the old system this group would not function, due to 2 people dragging the group down but getting rewarded disproportionately.
Scenario 3: 3 people have a good and responsible mix of mf and dps gear, and 1 person has full magic find gear.
Result: In the old system, this person would be a leech. In the new system, his magic find is essentially given to his groups, and he becomes, in essence, a buffbot with some intriquate AI.
Why do you care if you have to run two extra games to find an item.
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"When men are most sure and arrogant, they are commonly the most mistaken, and have then given views to passion, without that proper deliberation and suspense which can alone secure them from the grossest absurdities"
Ah well it's true that he would have an advantage over me in single player then. But this scenario is extreeeeemely unlikely =)
You can say that if Blizzard make Inferno easy nobody will be playing it for long therefore ppl won't need to use RAHM. So I also say it is unlikely Inferno is going to be easy. But on the other hand if inferno is still difficult for really ubber characters with best gear (which should get best MF too) then what's the point of looking for items. But I assume it will be possible to get ubber gear like that but point when you stop benefiting from playing in the party is going to be very high and finding gear like that will probably take years (assuming no dupping, etc which is in blizzard best interest to fix asap).
Rozmata, unless your teammates are complete gimps, there will always be benefit from grouping.
I believe many of us will be playing with random players on the net and in the best case with people from the guild. It will take a while till we find long lasting friends who can play as well as us so we don't feel like we are playing with noobs.
But you are right with current system we should not have such problems on inferno level. No noobs allowed there, they will loose they will to fight very quickly if they can't think fast. And if they happen to buy ubber gear on RAHM then well hello high MF
And next, they should make armor and resistance shared also, it wud be so awesome, maybe even attack power!
It is already m8. If your barb friend is staying in front of your squishy MF character what do you think you are sharing when mobs are pummeling his face? When he dies you die It's different kind of sharing but every stat has its own way of being shared. If you think something is not shared let Blizz know they will fix it.
And next, they should make armor and resistance shared also, it wud be so awesome, maybe even attack power!
It is already m8. If your barb friend is staying in front of your squishy MF character what do you think you are sharing when mobs are pummeling his face? When he dies you die It's different kind of sharing but every stat has its own way of being shared. If you think something is not shared let Blizz know they will fix it.
That isn't necessarily true as he could die, but you could have killed the monsters after his death and thus not die. Also, don't assume that all MF characters will be squishy/gimped/useless...I see this assumption a lot and even worse on the official Diablo III forums, and it's really not the case. Now, that isn't to say that there will be people who will gear poorly and use underpowered gear with only MF and maybe one other stat on it, but that's not what we should be looking at here. Those people I would agree are leechers, especially if they are the one who stand back and do very little to contribute to the group effort. No, what we should be looking at is how this affects more competent, smarter players that take a little time and effort to gear their characters well with the inclusion of Magic Find.
Where this will matter most will most certainly be at the end of Hell Mode and Inferno Mode since that is where the long-term gear will be found. Normal and Nightmare will not matter much in the grand scheme of things and people will very likely be able to get by with what they can craft from the blacksmith, getting off one of the AHs, and finding out in the wild, and it makes sense. These are the easier modes of the game and while Nightmare will be a jump in difficulty, it shouldn't be THAT hard. Magic Find won't be used that much in those difficulties and instead it will be a bigger focus on what I have stated before, and THAT is where this averaging change will have the most effect on people, and one that I think will not be that good overall. If anything, this averaging is going to discourage people from wanting to join public games, and it's going to widen the rift between those who dislike Magic Find (in some cases, those who are rather ignorant and believe that it's worthless and horrendously stat-gimping, when it isn't) and those who understand how to balance it.
This change doesn't actually address the problem of 'leechers' and instead all it is doing is unnecessarily penalizing responsible players that worked on their gear to achieve a solid balance of DPS, survivability, and Magic Find. How is it fair to someone who has worked hard to get their MF set going strong (let's say about 400% MF) and then when they want to go group with others outside of their friends or possibly out-of-game-giuld that their MF stat is forcibly taken away from them and split amongst other party members? And let's not jump to conclusions and say that it is fair because their DPS is weaker, because it is not out of the realm of possibility that a MFer could have built up some rather strong gear that outclasses a 'pure DPSer' (no MF at all) setup just on stats alone, and never mind the fact that class skills and player skill will also play a heavy role in terms of damage, too. In that case, the MFer joining a supposed group of 'pure DPS players' (no MF on any of their gear) is the one who truthfully has the best DPS of the bunch.
So, not only is the MFer doing more DPS than the others, he/she is also losing 300% MF and being forced to give it to the other group members and they are not giving anything in return...in terms of raw DPS. So, who is truly 'leeching' in this regard? Again, I am well aware that there are other things involved with group play other than DPS, but DPS is something that has been the hot topic about this, especially with people citing Blizzard talking about how hard Inferno is going to supposedly be and that if you aren't performing at maximum output then you are a leecher and deadweight to the group. In fact, it sounds a lot like a bit of a World of Warcraft DPS mentality, and I should know because I've played WoW for 5 years and I know how important DPS is, especially on tight enrage timer fights like ye olde Patchwerk back in Classic, Brutallis in TBC, etc, etc. But...and I know it's overused...Diablo III IS NOT WOW AND DPS ISN'T THE BE-ALL, END-ALL OF EVERYTHING, and as such you shouldn't be using it to judge MFers by.
...I guess what I am trying to say after rambling on so much is that the averaging of Magic Find in groups isn't going to solve the problem Blizzard was trying to fix by going that route. If anything, it will create new problems while the old one will still exist, and if they wanted to fix it, they needed to give the community better tools to help itself with policing and governing itself, and most certainly give the chat channels more options and make them more robust in the process. That, and that MFers should not be so quickly categorized as 'leechers' and at the same time they shouldn't be unfairly punished by being forced to split a stat up between a group that they worked hard to get and should be able to reap the full benefit of it whether in solo play or group play.
Sharing the MF/GF does suck, but like tanakeah mentioned, who know if mf/gf gear does suck. As of now, blizzard haven't shown us the legendary/set stats so we can't assume that people with MF/GF gears will do bad. There are baddies in game obviously but what are the chance that you'll partner up with them, I mean I'll be tagging along with my friends and it'll be a full group. Blizzard also stated that the more MF/GF gears you have, the less the dps you'll do. I myself will not stack on this as a wizard unless my friends can out dps the act. All in all, if you have a full group with just friends, you're good, rather them taking my portion then some random person I don't know.
Is anyone else becoming an increasingly sad panda from all the shared-magic-find threads on the Blizzard forums? People crying about how they don't want to share their magic find, giving utterly moronic rationalizations of why such would be bad.
I cry for humanity :'(
Its quite stupid, those that cry are probably those that would gimp their DPS for excessive amount of MF in group situations.
I was quite a MF whore in Diablo 2 and even i see that this system is for the good of the group, if people don't want to share they shouldn't play coop.
This change encourages people to magic find alone, which is strange because Blizzard has been pushing every game mechanic to encourage co-op.
I feel like they're having trouble getting some of their conceptual game mechanics to work out realistically, and now they're tweaking them against prior motives in order to release the game... bittersweet.
It all depends of how difficult Inferno is. And there will be always some few (<1%) lucky/smart people who will be able to do great dps and have big MF. But blizzard don't do game exclusively for them to make their lives even better. Blizzard do games for many. And needs of many outweigh needs of a few, right All who are super smart/rich/have a lot and lot of time will win anyway no matter if game is 100% fair.
Leeching isn't anymore possible. All player in the group have the same amount of mf, gf and xp. So everyone won't neglect their own killing power. If you don't have the best or any mf or gf gear, public games are a good chance to do farm runs.
If you have very good mf / gf gear (gear with a high amount of mf / gf and also offensive and defensive affixes), solo farm runs are more profitable then public games or you find other players with equal gear and group together for better farm runs.
New opportunities for easy multiboxing in d3. See this post.
This change encourages people to magic find alone, which is strange because Blizzard has been pushing every game mechanic to encourage co-op.
I feel like they're having trouble getting some of their conceptual game mechanics to work out realistically, and now they're tweaking them against prior motives in order to release the game... bittersweet.
The mostlikely case is that in order to do inferno alone effectively, you will need to equip your best equipment, not the equipment that has MF.
And they have already said that u wont be able to sacrifice all stats for MF.
It all depends of how difficult Inferno is. And there will be always some few (<1%) lucky/smart people who will be able to do great dps and have big MF. But blizzard don't do game exclusively for them to make their lives even better. Blizzard do games for many. And needs of many outweigh needs of a few, right All who are super smart/rich/have a lot and lot of time will win anyway no matter if game is 100% fair.
Except in this case what they're doing is not catering to the needs of many, and instead what they're doing is unfairly penalizing those who take the time to play smart. If Hell and Inferno mode are anywhere near as hard as Blizzard is hyping them up to be, then natural difficulty progression and the consequences of not progressing due to dying because of a combination of poor play and gear choice will do its job to teach people that stacking MF and forgoing a balanced mix of stats is not a good idea. Instead of the game being a rewarding experience for those smart players who take even a bit of time to get their gear in order and have some extra Magic Find so they can get extra goodies while in a group and still contribute, they are having that taken away from them and not allowed to have much of a say in it.
And by that I mean that if they want to group with others outside of friend/guild/whatever circles they have, they will feel gimped and wonder why their MF is being leeched off of, because it is. In fact, it's actually working against Blizzard's idea that they want Diablo III to be a more social game, having people join random groups, go kill monsters, etc, etc. What it will do is make people who have worked for their gear with MF on it shy away from groups and just make solo games, or if they do want to group, then they'll try to find others with similar amounts of MF gear and party only with them because then they won't feel leeched off of. Of course, with the poor chat system right now, that's not going to be easy, so here's hoping Blizzard adds to that, but that's another issue. Point is, is that this change isn't for the better or for the many...it's going to do more harm than good in the long run.
The most likely case is that in order to do inferno alone effectively, you will need to equip your best equipment, not the equipment that has MF.
And they have already said that u wont be able to sacrifice all stats for MF.
Actually, that is not the case, and if it was, then MF as a stat would be as useless as Light Radius was in Diablo II and no one would want it. They have said that Inferno Mode is solo-able and I agree that you will not be able to sacrifice all stats for MF. HOWEVER, and this is the key point in what you said, you said ALL STATS, which is completely different than what a smart MFer will do, or even someone who just stops and thinks about gear choices for a moment. Hell and Inferno Mode gear is looking to have around 5-6 stats (possibly more for sets/uniques) and let's not forget SOCKETS, too. Of those 5-6 stats you will only need 1 stat to be Magic Find, and this doesn't necessarily have to be on EVERY PIECE OF GEAR either, which means you have A LOT of other slots to use for your offensive and defensive stats. Certainly, if you wear a piece of gear with just MF on it you will take a hit, but when you get a more powerful piece that has all of those extra properties on it...suddenly that one MF stat isn't looking so 'gimpy' now is it?
And going through Hell and Inferno...the smart thing to do is to NOT focus on MF the first time through, and to keep damage and survivability at the forefront and always a priority. BUT, as you progress and improve your gear you will be able to replace pieces with those that have MF and you'll discover that you're not gimping yourself, you'll survive just fine, and while you may not kill at the same speed, you will still kill efficiently with the added bonus that you're now having more chances at better gear. ...These are the types of players, and I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few people on these forums are smart players...these are the players that are going to get hurt the most by this change because their hard work will be leeched by those who don't put forth the same effort that they have, and instead of being encouraged by Blizzard to socialize with their fellow community members, they will not because they (rightfully so) do not want to be leeched off of.
Averaged MF will be probably fair only if person who find twice as many magical items kills two times slower. In case when they kills less than twice times slower sharing of MF won't be fair. But if it was so fair magic found would have no sense at all. So I assume that high level, well geared characters will have to stack some MF as putting all stats into damage may not really speed up any kills except maybe elites/bosses. So balanced characters in inferno should be always running with properly balanced MF to damage to achieve maximum ratio for speed of kill vs MF. This leads to classification of players in four categories:
1 - optimal who knows how to balance their characters for maximum magical items finding (good MF vs speed of killing)
2 - less than optimum who didn't balance their characters yet but are trying to do so
3 - ones who buy all from RAHM and don't give a shit about MF and they depend on MF characters to sell to them all that ubber gear.
4 - ones who play for fun and don't care about MF (good casuals)
For each of these categories, choose category:
1 - if you are into balancing your character and want to have all the best gear without spending money or you want to sell what you find on RAHM
2 - if you want to be in category 1 you have to be in category 2 first
3 - whomever is in category 1 should avoid low MF guys from category 3 but if you are still in category 2 and have difficulty running inferno alone you can join category 3 guys for now. If you a category 3 guy, you probably don't care who you are playing with as far you can show your gear to them. Leechers loves guy like you but leechers won't exist in D3 because of this change.
4 - if casuals are in inferno they probably won't stay there for long as it may get boring for them. But anybody from category 1 and 2 shouldn't/won't play with them as they will kill same or slower and not have MF at the same time.
It looks like we need guilds for group 1 and 2 as only these ppl will be still playing D3 after half a year. So maybe we don't need guilds then
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I cry for humanity :'(
This appears to me, like a change only people who intend to leech the shit out of others could be complaining about o.O
Because it won't matter if you have 300dps and your high MF friend only 150dps when you both kill everything in one strike and can clear the are same fast. Then he will just give you MF for free as your dps won't be benefiting him.
I posted this on eu forums a few minutes ago in another thread complaining about shared mf.
Rozmata, unless your teammates are complete gimps, there will always be benefit from grouping.
But you are right with current system we should not have such problems on inferno level. No noobs allowed there, they will loose they will to fight very quickly if they can't think fast. And if they happen to buy ubber gear on RAHM then well hello high MF
It is already m8. If your barb friend is staying in front of your squishy MF character what do you think you are sharing when mobs are pummeling his face? When he dies you die It's different kind of sharing but every stat has its own way of being shared. If you think something is not shared let Blizz know they will fix it.
That isn't necessarily true as he could die, but you could have killed the monsters after his death and thus not die. Also, don't assume that all MF characters will be squishy/gimped/useless...I see this assumption a lot and even worse on the official Diablo III forums, and it's really not the case. Now, that isn't to say that there will be people who will gear poorly and use underpowered gear with only MF and maybe one other stat on it, but that's not what we should be looking at here. Those people I would agree are leechers, especially if they are the one who stand back and do very little to contribute to the group effort. No, what we should be looking at is how this affects more competent, smarter players that take a little time and effort to gear their characters well with the inclusion of Magic Find.
Where this will matter most will most certainly be at the end of Hell Mode and Inferno Mode since that is where the long-term gear will be found. Normal and Nightmare will not matter much in the grand scheme of things and people will very likely be able to get by with what they can craft from the blacksmith, getting off one of the AHs, and finding out in the wild, and it makes sense. These are the easier modes of the game and while Nightmare will be a jump in difficulty, it shouldn't be THAT hard. Magic Find won't be used that much in those difficulties and instead it will be a bigger focus on what I have stated before, and THAT is where this averaging change will have the most effect on people, and one that I think will not be that good overall. If anything, this averaging is going to discourage people from wanting to join public games, and it's going to widen the rift between those who dislike Magic Find (in some cases, those who are rather ignorant and believe that it's worthless and horrendously stat-gimping, when it isn't) and those who understand how to balance it.
This change doesn't actually address the problem of 'leechers' and instead all it is doing is unnecessarily penalizing responsible players that worked on their gear to achieve a solid balance of DPS, survivability, and Magic Find. How is it fair to someone who has worked hard to get their MF set going strong (let's say about 400% MF) and then when they want to go group with others outside of their friends or possibly out-of-game-giuld that their MF stat is forcibly taken away from them and split amongst other party members? And let's not jump to conclusions and say that it is fair because their DPS is weaker, because it is not out of the realm of possibility that a MFer could have built up some rather strong gear that outclasses a 'pure DPSer' (no MF at all) setup just on stats alone, and never mind the fact that class skills and player skill will also play a heavy role in terms of damage, too. In that case, the MFer joining a supposed group of 'pure DPS players' (no MF on any of their gear) is the one who truthfully has the best DPS of the bunch.
So, not only is the MFer doing more DPS than the others, he/she is also losing 300% MF and being forced to give it to the other group members and they are not giving anything in return...in terms of raw DPS. So, who is truly 'leeching' in this regard? Again, I am well aware that there are other things involved with group play other than DPS, but DPS is something that has been the hot topic about this, especially with people citing Blizzard talking about how hard Inferno is going to supposedly be and that if you aren't performing at maximum output then you are a leecher and deadweight to the group. In fact, it sounds a lot like a bit of a World of Warcraft DPS mentality, and I should know because I've played WoW for 5 years and I know how important DPS is, especially on tight enrage timer fights like ye olde Patchwerk back in Classic, Brutallis in TBC, etc, etc. But...and I know it's overused...Diablo III IS NOT WOW AND DPS ISN'T THE BE-ALL, END-ALL OF EVERYTHING, and as such you shouldn't be using it to judge MFers by.
...I guess what I am trying to say after rambling on so much is that the averaging of Magic Find in groups isn't going to solve the problem Blizzard was trying to fix by going that route. If anything, it will create new problems while the old one will still exist, and if they wanted to fix it, they needed to give the community better tools to help itself with policing and governing itself, and most certainly give the chat channels more options and make them more robust in the process. That, and that MFers should not be so quickly categorized as 'leechers' and at the same time they shouldn't be unfairly punished by being forced to split a stat up between a group that they worked hard to get and should be able to reap the full benefit of it whether in solo play or group play.
I was quite a MF whore in Diablo 2 and even i see that this system is for the good of the group, if people don't want to share they shouldn't play coop.
I feel like they're having trouble getting some of their conceptual game mechanics to work out realistically, and now they're tweaking them against prior motives in order to release the game... bittersweet.
I think the second player will have to be in some sensible range from you. I don't believe he can just stay in the town and sit there.
I like the sound of that a lot more.
Except in this case what they're doing is not catering to the needs of many, and instead what they're doing is unfairly penalizing those who take the time to play smart. If Hell and Inferno mode are anywhere near as hard as Blizzard is hyping them up to be, then natural difficulty progression and the consequences of not progressing due to dying because of a combination of poor play and gear choice will do its job to teach people that stacking MF and forgoing a balanced mix of stats is not a good idea. Instead of the game being a rewarding experience for those smart players who take even a bit of time to get their gear in order and have some extra Magic Find so they can get extra goodies while in a group and still contribute, they are having that taken away from them and not allowed to have much of a say in it.
And by that I mean that if they want to group with others outside of friend/guild/whatever circles they have, they will feel gimped and wonder why their MF is being leeched off of, because it is. In fact, it's actually working against Blizzard's idea that they want Diablo III to be a more social game, having people join random groups, go kill monsters, etc, etc. What it will do is make people who have worked for their gear with MF on it shy away from groups and just make solo games, or if they do want to group, then they'll try to find others with similar amounts of MF gear and party only with them because then they won't feel leeched off of. Of course, with the poor chat system right now, that's not going to be easy, so here's hoping Blizzard adds to that, but that's another issue. Point is, is that this change isn't for the better or for the many...it's going to do more harm than good in the long run.
Actually, that is not the case, and if it was, then MF as a stat would be as useless as Light Radius was in Diablo II and no one would want it. They have said that Inferno Mode is solo-able and I agree that you will not be able to sacrifice all stats for MF. HOWEVER, and this is the key point in what you said, you said ALL STATS, which is completely different than what a smart MFer will do, or even someone who just stops and thinks about gear choices for a moment. Hell and Inferno Mode gear is looking to have around 5-6 stats (possibly more for sets/uniques) and let's not forget SOCKETS, too. Of those 5-6 stats you will only need 1 stat to be Magic Find, and this doesn't necessarily have to be on EVERY PIECE OF GEAR either, which means you have A LOT of other slots to use for your offensive and defensive stats. Certainly, if you wear a piece of gear with just MF on it you will take a hit, but when you get a more powerful piece that has all of those extra properties on it...suddenly that one MF stat isn't looking so 'gimpy' now is it?
And going through Hell and Inferno...the smart thing to do is to NOT focus on MF the first time through, and to keep damage and survivability at the forefront and always a priority. BUT, as you progress and improve your gear you will be able to replace pieces with those that have MF and you'll discover that you're not gimping yourself, you'll survive just fine, and while you may not kill at the same speed, you will still kill efficiently with the added bonus that you're now having more chances at better gear. ...These are the types of players, and I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few people on these forums are smart players...these are the players that are going to get hurt the most by this change because their hard work will be leeched by those who don't put forth the same effort that they have, and instead of being encouraged by Blizzard to socialize with their fellow community members, they will not because they (rightfully so) do not want to be leeched off of.
1 - optimal who knows how to balance their characters for maximum magical items finding (good MF vs speed of killing)
2 - less than optimum who didn't balance their characters yet but are trying to do so
3 - ones who buy all from RAHM and don't give a shit about MF and they depend on MF characters to sell to them all that ubber gear.
4 - ones who play for fun and don't care about MF (good casuals)
For each of these categories, choose category:
1 - if you are into balancing your character and want to have all the best gear without spending money or you want to sell what you find on RAHM
2 - if you want to be in category 1 you have to be in category 2 first
3 - whomever is in category 1 should avoid low MF guys from category 3 but if you are still in category 2 and have difficulty running inferno alone you can join category 3 guys for now. If you a category 3 guy, you probably don't care who you are playing with as far you can show your gear to them. Leechers loves guy like you but leechers won't exist in D3 because of this change.
4 - if casuals are in inferno they probably won't stay there for long as it may get boring for them. But anybody from category 1 and 2 shouldn't/won't play with them as they will kill same or slower and not have MF at the same time.
It looks like we need guilds for group 1 and 2 as only these ppl will be still playing D3 after half a year. So maybe we don't need guilds then