Neither, the current system in place. I do not want to have to farm to be able to use the skills I want to play the game. However, seeing as I want to experiment anyways, I have absolutely no problem with the current system.
You people seem to think you have this perfect build in mind, and you won't need to stray from it. Well sorry, but only a complete idiot would think he has everything figured out because he starred at the skill calculator for a few hours. That means absolutely nothing in practice. Heck, we don't even know how some of these skills function in game, yet you think you have your perfect build already to go? BS BS BS!
I never said i have the perfect build in mind... And u still get to try out ur skills with the old rune system. U can always put a lower tier rune to see the rune effects. Higher tier runes just enhances the effect. And seeing that the lazy bum u are i won't blame u. Hey some people like it easy I don't blame them. And as i said in my original post i said both systems aren't perfect both have flaws. I'm just baffled by how people think this current iteration is good because clearly its still flawed much like its older iteration... I just prefer the older one cuz it requires u to actually work for it much harder.
You can only experiement with the different build options by keeping the runes....If i just wanted to see what the runes did to the ability, I wouldnt even play D3, id watch a youtube video of it. Also its impossible to get a clear understanding of the runes effectiveness when you have a bunch of low lvl runes. How am I going to go into infeno and test a build with a bunch of lvl 2 runes?! Also, it would be impossible to farm high ranking runes for all your skills, or even a large number of them. Which of course doesnt matter, because even if you could get them, it would be near impossible to store them all. And even if we assume you could store them all, how in the hell could you ever find what you were looking for?
The OP is right, the old system was mathematically impossible and flawed to the core. There is absolutely no comparison to the current system whatsoever. To say they both have flaws is like Faux news saying other news organizations are biased as well.
Actually, the current system is near flawless. You are just the one thats imperfect. You have not one rational argument against the new system, other than its not the old flawed system.
Edit: Wait, whats the problem here again? If you don't have a perfect build, then why do you care what order you get the skills?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
One is never hurt by being given additional choices, only by taking them away. A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
The new system is flawed since it close to forces you to use certain abilities at certain times while levelling since you just unlocked a rune, and it took away a huge part of the Diablo franchise end-game - finding magical items to improve and customize your character.
That changes pretty early on when more Runes are opened you'll have more choices. In Beta, yeah there's not MUCH choice but I still did have some to make.
As for finding magical items to improve your character? I'm all for it, but when it comes to customizing my playstyle and my skill build, I would much rather there be no randomness.
It would be like having gear that randomly chose a skill on your talent tree in D2 when you equipped it. That's no fun.
So 99% of the time we would have just been buying the "right" runes for our builds anyway.
Lol ok so;
1st of all, everyone knew rune stones werent perfect, jay said himself they were trying diff ways indoors.
2nd, the runestone system wasnt ALL broken, so much so that most of it is still there, the only big change we got was, its not dropable anymore, ooh, yeah that means ''all broken''...
3rd, its STILL not final, and will never be, even after the game is released, im SURE we'll keep getting mini updates weekly, and a big one when the 1st exp comes
So please, cut the ''oh, i was the only one sayin' this and now u all can suck on it'' attitude, you are just looking like a troll this way.
Ok I will make this simple and quick. The old system, which none of us ever got to use, allowed Full customization while the new system has a longer range of growth. Remember why they took skill points out of the game, because they felt that one or two points did feel like it added anything. Now they have a system which unlocks options as you level.
My biggest problem which was addressed in the game was that I had nothing but gear to look forward to as I leveled past 30. That has been addressed to me. I'm not acting like I lost something since i never got to have it to be begin with. Now I have progression while I level, which I find very fun.
Neither, the current system in place. I do not want to have to farm to be able to use the skills I want to play the game. However, seeing as I want to experiment anyways, I have absolutely no problem with the current system.
You people seem to think you have this perfect build in mind, and you won't need to stray from it. Well sorry, but only a complete idiot would think he has everything figured out because he starred at the skill calculator for a few hours. That means absolutely nothing in practice. Heck, we don't even know how some of these skills function in game, yet you think you have your perfect build already to go? BS BS BS!
I never said i have the perfect build in mind... And u still get to try out ur skills with the old rune system. U can always put a lower tier rune to see the rune effects. Higher tier runes just enhances the effect. And seeing that the lazy bum u are i won't blame u. Hey some people like it easy I don't blame them. And as i said in my original post i said both systems aren't perfect both have flaws. I'm just baffled by how people think this current iteration is good because clearly its still flawed much like its older iteration... I just prefer the older one cuz it requires u to actually work for it much harder.
You can only experiement with the different build options by keeping the runes....If i just wanted to see what the runes did to the ability, I wouldnt even play D3, id watch a youtube video of it. Also its impossible to get a clear understanding of the runes effectiveness when you have a bunch of low lvl runes. How am I going to go into infeno and test a build with a bunch of lvl 2 runes?! Also, it would be impossible to farm high ranking runes for all your skills, or even a large number of them. Which of course doesnt matter, because even if you could get them, it would be near impossible to store them all. And even if we assume you could store them all, how in the hell could you ever find what you were looking for?
The OP is right, the old system was mathematically impossible and flawed to the core. There is absolutely no comparison to the current system whatsoever. To say they both have flaws is like Faux news saying other news organizations are biased as well.
Actually, the current system is near flawless. You are just the one thats imperfect. You have not one rational argument against the new system, other than its not the old flawed system.
Edit: Wait, whats the problem here again? If you don't have a perfect build, then why do you care what order you get the skills?
u have a good argument to support the new system in comparison to the old system, it's true that experimenting with a lower lvl rune rank can not be a good example of that skill validation to inferno - so by giving u a 3-5 or 4-5 rank runes at lower lvl u can have a better feeling how it will be in inferno. but don't forget when u experimenting with a lower lvl rune in a lower lvl area it can give a good picture of how a higher lvl rune will function in a higher lvl area - so more or less will have same ratio, plus the dmg of a rune is by percentage so that specific rune with a better weapon can be as good in abit higher lvl areas.
now about the planning a head a "perfect" build it's also true u can't rly know if ur build is good until u try it - and if the old system would have stayed to release i will try out as much skills as possible to see if i like it. ofc the first skills i will choose r the skilled i planned in advance, but than u will see if u like them or not - some ppl will like it and stay with it some ppl will like it, but still will want to try the other runes on that skill.
but let's see an example of a casual player he plays with the new system and every rune on the skills he uses r good for his play style and he enjoys it - and he stays with it , now lucky for him all the skills he like and wanted unlock till lvl 30. but as he is a casual he will get to lvl 35-40 and will stop playing ( rather it's too time consuming, too harder, or he had enough) - so all the skills he didn't have a chance to see which were from 36-60 or 41-60, he will never know if he like them or not - hypothetically if he would have see/use them he will enjoy it more or they will be more suited to his gameplay - he might have continue playing even more than 35-40( mayB even becoming a hardcore player cuz of that).
so u see the problem here...i am not sure for the numbers but let's say that 60%-70% of the player base - r casual players, which means they won't go pass lvl 35-40 cuz of the reasons i mentioned(true the range lvl that casual player will get will vary-but still not too higher) so non of them will be able to use all the skills available in the game.
truth be told some hardcore players won't care about the amount of skills u will be able to use while lvling cuz most of them will get to lvl 60(and for them the game only begin at lvl 60) so they will see all the skills and use them as they please. while casual players will feel the game will end at norm-nightmare, mayB abit of hell.
i consider my self the kind of casual player which will try to get higher but most likely will stop at about 3/4 of nightmare cuz of difficulty.as i said in an earlier post in this thread highest i got in normal lvling in d2 was lvl 62 - i do believe in comparison i will get higher lvl in d3 cuz of validation of all skills in any part of the game - which is cuz they do dmg according to a percentage of ur weapon dmg, but i do think i wouldn't mange to get to lvl 60. so here i am a fan of diablo series and d3 in particular and i won't be able to use/see all the skills in game(and i am not the only 1). now let's say blizzard care only about their casual players( which isn't true imo) this new system is flawed according to their plan/philosophy to be more oriented to casual players. i didn't say the old system is the cure, they both need to be fixed.
no doubt it's impossible to satisfy every1, but for their own interest they r shooting them selves in the legs - by keeping this system as it is. as much as it's hard for me to be objective on the matter, i think for their own good they need to let all kind of players have the option to use any skill they want( rather they r casual or hardcore) - i didn't say keep the old system but have most of the important advantages in both systems.
hopefully i clarify the prob i and some other ppl see in this new system.
All I can say ..is.. that I sincerely hope they put off adding the online calculator system for the current skill/rune UI. It's pretty awful in game, especially for how organized the calc for the previous systems was online.
Every single time you level a new character, you'll have the exact same skills and the exact same runes available at the exact same levels. How can anyone see this as a good thing?
Yes because every time I level I won't try different variations as I level. I won't pick different runes as I level to try new options. That would be just silly.
All I can say ..is.. that I sincerely hope they put off adding the online calculator system for the current skill/rune UI. It's pretty awful in game, especially for how organized the calc for the previous systems was online.
Sadly they have already stated the web guys at Blizzard are hard at work taking a step back on the "rune" calculator as well.
To be honest it really seems like their rune decision and UI is final. Which is just so ridiculous
Sadly they have already stated the web guys at Blizzard are hard at work taking a step back on the "rune" calculator as well.
To be honest it really seems like their rune decision and UI is final. Which is just so ridiculous
Even though I disagree with you about the runes (I like the system), I do agree with you that the UI is not that good. With that said, even if the game is released with that pile of crap UI, I won't be overly upset because it's a feature that I will spend a small percentage of time looking at. Pick a skill quickly, pick a rune quickly, close window and go back to slaying demons as soon as possible.
Diablo 3 Inferno difficulty can complete absolutely everyone (btw on HARDCORE – too) it’s all just depends on yours amount of CHI and level of perception and/or awareness in D3 game and in real life - that’s it!!!
Wow, you are either really thick or deceitful. I'll talk slow. Sorry...cranky.
When you start a new WD, you'll eventually reach level 6; you unlock a specific rune for poison dart. So you either use that rune, or no rune (and yes, it's always the same rune that unlocks). Then you reach level 8 (or whatever), and unlock a specific rune for grasp of the dead (and yes, it's always the same rune that unlocks). So, again, you either use that rune, or no rune. See a pattern? This will only begin to alleviate when the second 'round' of runes starts unlocking, and even then it'll be painfully slow, and still very much the same as your previous playthrough with a WD.
EDIT: okay, I found a video of the WD in this new patch. So, at level 6 you'll always unlock the rune Splinters, for Poison Dart. Always. At 13 Numbing Dart, and at 20 Spined Dart. So yeah, until level 20, you have the grand number of two alternatives to poison dart. And this applies to all other skills. Yes, the closer you get to 60, the more options you will have, but the first 20 or 25 levels will be pretty much the same for every single new character you decide to level.
@Shuggste: need? Who levels new characters because they need? It's fun to level new characters. Well, it was fun.
Ok, so like any other game you start out with a few options and gain new ons over time. So your character grows, and gets more abilities and this is a negative? Now your example basically says that at level 13 you get your first choice. Actually no, do you want 1 dart with 100% damage or 3 darts that will spread out and deal 59% weapon damage each. That is a choice, a very significant choice. From the beginning of getting the first rune. I may just want to maintain the strength and control of the single dart over the spread if of the three darts. So you think once a rune opens up you should automatically take it even if it is against your play style?
Well that is your choice, but not mine, and maybe not others. For you it is limited but for me it expanded at lvl 6, maybe when I roll a new WD I will use it from the beginning, see new play experience right there.
the new rune system is still semi flawed, like someone else posted in the other thread. to experience the full game you now have to be level 60 eg complete hell. a better way to approach the same system is to have those runes in multiple levels. so you can unlock all the different effect by level 30 and then unlocked the highest levels by level 60.
eg at level 6 a wizard unlock all level 1 runes for magic missle and at level 45 level all level 7 runes for magic missile
wait..can't you just run around killing level 1 boars on normal difficulty until you level up to 60 instead of completing hell (south park pun intended)
Diablo 3 Inferno difficulty can complete absolutely everyone (btw on HARDCORE – too) it’s all just depends on yours amount of CHI and level of perception and/or awareness in D3 game and in real life - that’s it!!!
"When men are most sure and arrogant, they are commonly the most mistaken, and have then given views to passion, without that proper deliberation and suspense which can alone secure them from the grossest absurdities"
Hey yah Ashitaka, I was just giving an example really based on Maka's and one that I felt was worth exploring. True enough most runes have an effect which is always better than the original rune and that is probably always going to be the case. I just think it was worth noting that choices do appear, and the more you level the more choices you get. Much like other RPGs have had. You level and your skill base becomes broader and more distinct.
I also don't look at this system as perfect, especially the way the skills are organized now, I really dislike that, but I do think it is better than the previous setup mainly since I now have something to look forward to.
Ohh I think I see what the real issue is... Its just a rehashing of the old argument about needing a limit or costs to respecs. Blizzard said hell no, and now they are force feeding them the infinite respecs. Of course, now they are all butthurt.
As if any of you. who were given infinite respecs. would have stuck to your guns and only used your 1st chosen skills....what a crock of shit.
Every single time you level a new character, you'll have the exact same skills and the exact same runes available at the exact same levels. How can anyone see this as a good thing?
How many of the same class are you planning on leveling? You know you only have 10 spots to share amongst 5 classes right? Essentially one for normal mode and one for survival mode.
Ohh and have you forgotten about the plethora of options? You aren't getting an upgraded version of a spell every time you unlock a rune, nor is every new skill going to be favorable over the ones you already have. So, I find it hard to believe you would be FORCED into using the same set of skills all the time.
So yah, I dont see the problem here.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
One is never hurt by being given additional choices, only by taking them away. A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
just a suggestion-the sides that dont have runes you can unlock with , how about those runes drop in the game, eliminating 50% of all runes being able to drop, so basically just drop runes that are only good for the side without runes. That way just adds a little bit more customization i think. or have the gear you get add rune bonuses to the side without runeskills, , give me a break on this suggestion cause i have not played beta. if this has already been said somewhere i apologize, i have not read every thread on this site.
I am excited to check out the new system, either at release, on in beta testing (if I ever get in). The new system seems to me to be a lot more fun, and puts the emphasis back on looting for weapons to assist in your overall damage. I am excited to see all of the variations of builds once the game makes it in our hands...Soone rather than later, hopefully!
But I told you so... I told you exactly why the runestone system would not work, and I was called a noob and flamed to no end. It was simply mathematically impossble, and there is no workaround for math.
Yer not the only one bro, Its not a secret, that making 3000 different, but still needed items drop enough for eeveryone to get them in a timely fashion is wery difficult with an extremely limited stash and without running to mule every few minutes. Maybe a separate rune- book with higher capacity would have done it...
But I told you so... I told you exactly why the runestone system would not work, and I was called a noob and flamed to no end. It was simply mathematically impossble, and there is no workaround for math.
Yer not the only one bro, Its not a secret, that making 3000 different, but still needed items drop enough for eeveryone to get them in a timely fashion is wery difficult with an extremely limited stash and without running to mule every few minutes. Maybe a separate rune- book with higher capacity would have done it...
There wasnt 3k that dropped....technically only 7 unattuned runes dropped.
And he was likely the 1st to bring up the issue, that I know of anyways.
Even if he wasnt though, who cares? I am pretty sure you don't get anything for taking credit for something that happened on the internet.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
One is never hurt by being given additional choices, only by taking them away. A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
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You can only experiement with the different build options by keeping the runes....If i just wanted to see what the runes did to the ability, I wouldnt even play D3, id watch a youtube video of it. Also its impossible to get a clear understanding of the runes effectiveness when you have a bunch of low lvl runes. How am I going to go into infeno and test a build with a bunch of lvl 2 runes?! Also, it would be impossible to farm high ranking runes for all your skills, or even a large number of them. Which of course doesnt matter, because even if you could get them, it would be near impossible to store them all. And even if we assume you could store them all, how in the hell could you ever find what you were looking for?
The OP is right, the old system was mathematically impossible and flawed to the core. There is absolutely no comparison to the current system whatsoever. To say they both have flaws is like Faux news saying other news organizations are biased as well.
Actually, the current system is near flawless. You are just the one thats imperfect. You have not one rational argument against the new system, other than its not the old flawed system.
Edit: Wait, whats the problem here again? If you don't have a perfect build, then why do you care what order you get the skills?
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
That changes pretty early on when more Runes are opened you'll have more choices. In Beta, yeah there's not MUCH choice but I still did have some to make.
As for finding magical items to improve your character? I'm all for it, but when it comes to customizing my playstyle and my skill build, I would much rather there be no randomness.
It would be like having gear that randomly chose a skill on your talent tree in D2 when you equipped it. That's no fun.
So 99% of the time we would have just been buying the "right" runes for our builds anyway.
Ehh, maybe you feel that way due to them being called Runes? There is really only 1 difference between runes now and before.
They do their job better now than they did before.
There should be no randomness to SKILL customization, it's too important. The new system takes care of that.
1st of all, everyone knew rune stones werent perfect, jay said himself they were trying diff ways indoors.
2nd, the runestone system wasnt ALL broken, so much so that most of it is still there, the only big change we got was, its not dropable anymore, ooh, yeah that means ''all broken''...
3rd, its STILL not final, and will never be, even after the game is released, im SURE we'll keep getting mini updates weekly, and a big one when the 1st exp comes
So please, cut the ''oh, i was the only one sayin' this and now u all can suck on it'' attitude, you are just looking like a troll this way.
My biggest problem which was addressed in the game was that I had nothing but gear to look forward to as I leveled past 30. That has been addressed to me. I'm not acting like I lost something since i never got to have it to be begin with. Now I have progression while I level, which I find very fun.
u have a good argument to support the new system in comparison to the old system, it's true that experimenting with a lower lvl rune rank can not be a good example of that skill validation to inferno - so by giving u a 3-5 or 4-5 rank runes at lower lvl u can have a better feeling how it will be in inferno. but don't forget when u experimenting with a lower lvl rune in a lower lvl area it can give a good picture of how a higher lvl rune will function in a higher lvl area - so more or less will have same ratio, plus the dmg of a rune is by percentage so that specific rune with a better weapon can be as good in abit higher lvl areas.
now about the planning a head a "perfect" build it's also true u can't rly know if ur build is good until u try it - and if the old system would have stayed to release i will try out as much skills as possible to see if i like it. ofc the first skills i will choose r the skilled i planned in advance, but than u will see if u like them or not - some ppl will like it and stay with it some ppl will like it, but still will want to try the other runes on that skill.
but let's see an example of a casual player he plays with the new system and every rune on the skills he uses r good for his play style and he enjoys it - and he stays with it , now lucky for him all the skills he like and wanted unlock till lvl 30. but as he is a casual he will get to lvl 35-40 and will stop playing ( rather it's too time consuming, too harder, or he had enough) - so all the skills he didn't have a chance to see which were from 36-60 or 41-60, he will never know if he like them or not - hypothetically if he would have see/use them he will enjoy it more or they will be more suited to his gameplay - he might have continue playing even more than 35-40( mayB even becoming a hardcore player cuz of that).
so u see the problem here...i am not sure for the numbers but let's say that 60%-70% of the player base - r casual players, which means they won't go pass lvl 35-40 cuz of the reasons i mentioned(true the range lvl that casual player will get will vary-but still not too higher) so non of them will be able to use all the skills available in the game.
truth be told some hardcore players won't care about the amount of skills u will be able to use while lvling cuz most of them will get to lvl 60(and for them the game only begin at lvl 60) so they will see all the skills and use them as they please. while casual players will feel the game will end at norm-nightmare, mayB abit of hell.
Yes because every time I level I won't try different variations as I level. I won't pick different runes as I level to try new options. That would be just silly.
Sadly they have already stated the web guys at Blizzard are hard at work taking a step back on the "rune" calculator as well.
To be honest it really seems like their rune decision and UI is final. Which is just so ridiculous
Even though I disagree with you about the runes (I like the system), I do agree with you that the UI is not that good. With that said, even if the game is released with that pile of crap UI, I won't be overly upset because it's a feature that I will spend a small percentage of time looking at. Pick a skill quickly, pick a rune quickly, close window and go back to slaying demons as soon as possible.
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Ok, so like any other game you start out with a few options and gain new ons over time. So your character grows, and gets more abilities and this is a negative? Now your example basically says that at level 13 you get your first choice. Actually no, do you want 1 dart with 100% damage or 3 darts that will spread out and deal 59% weapon damage each. That is a choice, a very significant choice. From the beginning of getting the first rune. I may just want to maintain the strength and control of the single dart over the spread if of the three darts. So you think once a rune opens up you should automatically take it even if it is against your play style?
Well that is your choice, but not mine, and maybe not others. For you it is limited but for me it expanded at lvl 6, maybe when I roll a new WD I will use it from the beginning, see new play experience right there.
What the hell are you even saying?
I also don't look at this system as perfect, especially the way the skills are organized now, I really dislike that, but I do think it is better than the previous setup mainly since I now have something to look forward to.
As if any of you. who were given infinite respecs. would have stuck to your guns and only used your 1st chosen skills....what a crock of shit.
How many of the same class are you planning on leveling? You know you only have 10 spots to share amongst 5 classes right? Essentially one for normal mode and one for survival mode.
Ohh and have you forgotten about the plethora of options? You aren't getting an upgraded version of a spell every time you unlock a rune, nor is every new skill going to be favorable over the ones you already have. So, I find it hard to believe you would be FORCED into using the same set of skills all the time.
So yah, I dont see the problem here.
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
Yer not the only one bro, Its not a secret, that making 3000 different, but still needed items drop enough for eeveryone to get them in a timely fashion is wery difficult with an extremely limited stash and without running to mule every few minutes. Maybe a separate rune- book with higher capacity would have done it...
There wasnt 3k that dropped....technically only 7 unattuned runes dropped.
And he was likely the 1st to bring up the issue, that I know of anyways.
Even if he wasnt though, who cares? I am pretty sure you don't get anything for taking credit for something that happened on the internet.
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!