1. You only have ~10 skills and ~ 4 passives unlocked, out of the potential ~120 skills (runestones) and ~ 20 passives available per class.
2. Stat points were broken. They created an issue where if you screwed up you couldn't use half the gear you wanted, or it made you not able to kill anything in the second half of the difficulties. But alas, stat points are still in the game, but they are on gear instead of given per level. This makes the game that much more custom because you choose which gear with which stats you want. A far better system.
3. Having to level a new character every time you wanted to try a different build was also broken. Don't mistake something that was in D2 for good, just because it was in D2. There's nothing that stops you from leveling another character if you so choose, but the majority of the player base don't WANT to level the same class twice or 6 times.
All in all the removal of stat points is a great move, and your toon feels the same because there are almost no options available in the beta that will be at release, including later level spells, runes, passives and gear.
@Bidmal;
Ask yourself, why do you care so much that i can swap skills when i want? Why do you want to put such a penalty on it? There's no good reason because it's a control issue; For some reason people with your mindset have a seriously hard problem thinking that someone else in a different game that you'll probably never meet is able to switch skills. In my opinion the system in place now is awesome, and it bugs me that you want to control how I play the game. Nothing is stopping YOU from keeping whatever build you want, and in all actuality the majority of players will end up sticking with one build. But If they wanted to change, there's the option.
Yes this thread again because the division on this topic is much much greater than you seem ready to admit.
I completely disagree with everything you said. The character generation is completely destroyed in this game. There should be hard choices, and yes, if you want a different type of character you should play a new character from scratch. Saying the majority of people don't want to level a character multiple times, is clearly your opinion and one I feel is incorrect. Everyone I know HATES the direction that D3 has taken with character development, and 10 years of Diablo II success actually point to having to start over as a key component in the game's longevity.
I would say for every level, give the user 1, maybe 2 stats to put in manually wherever they so desired. as for skills, make each skill have 3 ranks, and get 1 skill level every few levels. You still get every skill when it becomes available each level, but allow a point-diversion to allow some skills to be your main attacks over your situational or non-used ones. its simple, allows everything to remain the same, but allow a touch of uniqueness to each build, even if it is just a tiny bit.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
(this build was before D3 launched... looking back on it now - i had no idea what i was doing)
There is no real point in letting them be in a dungeon after you have the Town Portal (referring to the alters) , it takes less than 30 seconds (the current cd) to town portal, click new spell, click your portal back.
There should be no respecing anywhere but in town. And this respec should cost an increase amount of gold every time its done. there is no such thing as a build... only the skills currently equpied.
I would say for every level, give the user 1, maybe 2 stats to put in manually wherever they so desired. as for skills, make each skill have 3 ranks, and get 1 skill level every few levels. You still get every skill when it becomes available each level, but allow a point-diversion to allow some skills to be your main attacks over your situational or non-used ones. its simple, allows everything to remain the same, but allow a touch of uniqueness to each build, even if it is just a tiny bit.
Thtas kinda what they are already attempting. Runes are your rway to level up your skill... i just hope to dear god that if you swap a skill the equiped ruin is destroyed.
1. People are arguing that their wizard won't feel as unique as the other peoples wizards. IF this happens, this is the players fault. There is nothing Blizzard can do to stop this. If Blizzard makes the first set of skills you pick set in stone, then people will look up the top most optimal build and always use that (see D2). This will happen even if Blizzard implements fees for switching specs, because no one wants to waste time and gold. Again, they will google the best spec and be even more like everyone else (see WoW / D2).
2. I can attest that my friends and I while playing beta differ VASTLY in our builds. Since I was able to experiment with builds freely, I quickly found the one I like and I stick to it. Every time I level my DH I always pick elemental arrow, vault, chakram and grenades. For my passive I like to pick tactical advantage. My buddy who always loves the DH ALWAYS stays with his build; hungering arrow, rapid fire, shadow power and vault. My point being even with the limited skills available (about 12 out of about 120 per class) builds differ. This will even be more so at release.
TLDR; People are mistaking ease of access as being the enemy, when it's the players themselves. Making skills set in stone / making penalties will only force more players to go with the googled, most optimal builds. Instead, giving easier access to whatever builds people want to try will result in people finding their own, unique builds that they love, and will stick with.
1. People are arguing that their wizard won't feel as unique as the other peoples wizards. IF this happens, this is the players fault. There is nothing Blizzard can do to stop this. If Blizzard makes the first set of skills you pick set in stone, then people will look up the top most optimal build and always use that (see D2). This will happen even if Blizzard implements fees for switching specs, because no one wants to waste time and gold. Again, they will google the best spec and be even more like everyone else (see WoW / D2).
2. I can attest that my friends and I while playing beta differ VASTLY in our builds. Since I was able to experiment with builds freely, I quickly found the one I like and I stick to it. Every time I level my DH I always pick elemental arrow, vault, chakram and grenades. For my passive I like to pick tactical advantage. My buddy who always loves the DH ALWAYS stays with his build; hungering arrow, rapid fire, shadow power and vault. My point being even with the limited skills available (about 12 out of about 120 per class) builds differ. This will even be more so at release.
TLDR; People are mistaking ease of access as being the enemy, when it's the players themselves. Making skills set in stone / making penalties will only force more players to go with the googled, most optimal builds. Instead, giving easier access to whatever builds people want to try will result in people finding their own, unique builds that they love, and will stick with.
/thread
Then Let them google the most optimal builds. I don't fucking care... all i know is that this skill swapping horseshit ruins the game, and THIS is what kills build diversity.
when you create a build with limits on respeccing... and you take the time to level it. That is YOUR build.... YOUR design... and you invested into it.
Right now the way it is... this is like a fucking first person shooter just switching guns... and its lame as fuck.
1. People are arguing that their wizard won't feel as unique as the other peoples wizards. IF this happens, this is the players fault. There is nothing Blizzard can do to stop this. If Blizzard makes the first set of skills you pick set in stone, then people will look up the top most optimal build and always use that (see D2). This will happen even if Blizzard implements fees for switching specs, because no one wants to waste time and gold. Again, they will google the best spec and be even more like everyone else (see WoW / D2).
2. I can attest that my friends and I while playing beta differ VASTLY in our builds. Since I was able to experiment with builds freely, I quickly found the one I like and I stick to it. Every time I level my DH I always pick elemental arrow, vault, chakram and grenades. For my passive I like to pick tactical advantage. My buddy who always loves the DH ALWAYS stays with his build; hungering arrow, rapid fire, shadow power and vault. My point being even with the limited skills available (about 12 out of about 120 per class) builds differ. This will even be more so at release.
TLDR; People are mistaking ease of access as being the enemy, when it's the players themselves. Making skills set in stone / making penalties will only force more players to go with the googled, most optimal builds. Instead, giving easier access to whatever builds people want to try will result in people finding their own, unique builds that they love, and will stick with.
/thread
Then Let them google the most optimal builds. I don't fucking care... all i know is that this skill swapping horseshit ruins the game, and THIS is what kills build diversity.
when you create a build with limits on respeccing... and you take the time to level it. That is YOUR build.... YOUR design... and you invested into it.
Right now the way it is... this is like a fucking first person shooter just switching guns... and its lame as fuck.
whaaa.....?? So you want build diversity, but admit that limiting people in their choices / making build set in stone will result in people googling the most optimal builds?
Please re read my post, because it explains this situation pretty damn well if I don't say so myself. And if you have nothing constructive to give back, please refrain from flaming / general raging, as it does no one good.
1. People are arguing that their wizard won't feel as unique as the other peoples wizards. IF this happens, this is the players fault. There is nothing Blizzard can do to stop this. If Blizzard makes the first set of skills you pick set in stone, then people will look up the top most optimal build and always use that (see D2). This will happen even if Blizzard implements fees for switching specs, because no one wants to waste time and gold. Again, they will google the best spec and be even more like everyone else (see WoW / D2).
2. I can attest that my friends and I while playing beta differ VASTLY in our builds. Since I was able to experiment with builds freely, I quickly found the one I like and I stick to it. Every time I level my DH I always pick elemental arrow, vault, chakram and grenades. For my passive I like to pick tactical advantage. My buddy who always loves the DH ALWAYS stays with his build; hungering arrow, rapid fire, shadow power and vault. My point being even with the limited skills available (about 12 out of about 120 per class) builds differ. This will even be more so at release.
TLDR; People are mistaking ease of access as being the enemy, when it's the players themselves. Making skills set in stone / making penalties will only force more players to go with the googled, most optimal builds. Instead, giving easier access to whatever builds people want to try will result in people finding their own, unique builds that they love, and will stick with.
/thread
Then Let them google the most optimal builds. I don't fucking care... all i know is that this skill swapping horseshit ruins the game, and THIS is what kills build diversity.
when you create a build with limits on respeccing... and you take the time to level it. That is YOUR build.... YOUR design... and you invested into it.
Right now the way it is... this is like a fucking first person shooter just switching guns... and its lame as fuck.
whaaa.....?? So you want build diversity, but admit that limiting people in their choices / making build set in stone will result in people googling the most optimal builds?
Please re read my post, because it explains this situation pretty damn well if I don't say so myself. And if you have nothing constructive to give back, please refrain from flaming / general raging, as it does no one good.
Everytime something works good it always gets followed... in any game... in any life event. I'm sorry dude but your logic is flawed.Saying that locking people into their builds will incease the amount of copy cats is illogical. Either way their will be min max copy cats. At least locking them into their build means that their build MEANS something.
1. People are arguing that their wizard won't feel as unique as the other peoples wizards. IF this happens, this is the players fault. There is nothing Blizzard can do to stop this. If Blizzard makes the first set of skills you pick set in stone, then people will look up the top most optimal build and always use that (see D2). This will happen even if Blizzard implements fees for switching specs, because no one wants to waste time and gold. Again, they will google the best spec and be even more like everyone else (see WoW / D2).
2. I can attest that my friends and I while playing beta differ VASTLY in our builds. Since I was able to experiment with builds freely, I quickly found the one I like and I stick to it. Every time I level my DH I always pick elemental arrow, vault, chakram and grenades. For my passive I like to pick tactical advantage. My buddy who always loves the DH ALWAYS stays with his build; hungering arrow, rapid fire, shadow power and vault. My point being even with the limited skills available (about 12 out of about 120 per class) builds differ. This will even be more so at release.
TLDR; People are mistaking ease of access as being the enemy, when it's the players themselves. Making skills set in stone / making penalties will only force more players to go with the googled, most optimal builds. Instead, giving easier access to whatever builds people want to try will result in people finding their own, unique builds that they love, and will stick with.
/thread
Then Let them google the most optimal builds. I don't fucking care... all i know is that this skill swapping horseshit ruins the game, and THIS is what kills build diversity.
when you create a build with limits on respeccing... and you take the time to level it. That is YOUR build.... YOUR design... and you invested into it.
Right now the way it is... this is like a fucking first person shooter just switching guns... and its lame as fuck.
whaaa.....?? So you want build diversity, but admit that limiting people in their choices / making build set in stone will result in people googling the most optimal builds?
Please re read my post, because it explains this situation pretty damn well if I don't say so myself. And if you have nothing constructive to give back, please refrain from flaming / general raging, as it does no one good.
Everytime something works good it always gets followed... in any game... in any life event. I'm sorry dude but your logic is flawed.Saying that locking people into their builds will incease the amount of copy cats is illogical. Either way their will be min max copy cats. At least locking them into their build means that their build MEANS something.
Locking people into builds will = everyone not wanting to experiment, because most of us don't have time to re level a character. This in turn results in people googling 'fire mage' (WoW) and following that build. If you want 'meaning' in the choices people make, this will have the least amount.
BUT, if we give people the choice to experiment, that means everyone will try whatever they feel like. This in turn = many more people finding a unique build that they will stick with, which = a LOT more meaning that someone put into their build, because they found it themselves. This is the only solution to creating the environment you are for.
Locking people into builds will = everyone not wanting to experiment, because most of us don't have time to re level a character. This in turn results in people googling 'fire mage' (WoW) and following that build. If you want 'meaning' in the choices people make, this will have the least amount.
BUT, if we give people the choice to experiment, that means everyone will try whatever they feel like. This in turn = many more people finding a unique build that they will stick with, which = a LOT more meaning that someone put into their build, because they found it themselves. This is the only solution to creating the environment you are for.
Then make a practice room or practice mode... but remove this piece of shit skill swapping. The whole myth of experimentation is absurd. You won't be experimenting every second of teh game... so you don't need skill swapping. A respec with penalty solves your problem just fine.
Locking people into builds will = everyone not wanting to experiment, because most of us don't have time to re level a character. This in turn results in people googling 'fire mage' (WoW) and following that build. If you want 'meaning' in the choices people make, this will have the least amount.
BUT, if we give people the choice to experiment, that means everyone will try whatever they feel like. This in turn = many more people finding a unique build that they will stick with, which = a LOT more meaning that someone put into their build, because they found it themselves. This is the only solution to creating the environment you are for.
Then make a practice room or practice mode... but remove this piece of shit skill swapping. The whole myth of experimentation is absurd. You won't be experimenting every second of teh game... so you don't need skill swapping. A respec with penalty solves your problem just fine.
Myth? Have you played the game to prove otherwise? I can absolutely guarantee you that every time I level and get a new skill, I will experiment. Every time I find a new rune, I will experiment. I will experiment all the way until I'm level 60 and found a satisfying build. Then I will stick with it.
Pretend I'm a new player. You know what setting skills in stone / adding penalties does? This makes me alt - tab and see which build is the best, because I don't want to screw up. Whatever's at the top of the search list is what I'll be going for, and guess what! I'll be JUST like you!
There is no valid argument (proven by your rage / inability to articulate your point) why D3 needs to copy every game before it in heavy penalization when trying different builds. We both want the same thing; Build diversity. It's much more fun to join a public game with 3 others of the same class, only to see everyone using different skills / runes / passives. This will never be the case if you want it to go the way of D2, or WoW. Almost every class in D2 only had 1-3 builds that were viable in end game. Not exactly diversity. In wow there's only 3 specs per class that were diverse.
Diablo 3 is different, and I understand change is scary. I'm not trying to be a douche, I mean it. When something you love changes, everyone is hesitant. But just look at how it actually works, and realize this is for the better; In terms of skills everyone can pick what they want, and it will work.
Personally, I understand the concerns about characters feeling unique enough; while there are a near-infinite number of possible combinations of skills and passives, there's nothing forcing a character to stick with a certain combination.
On the other hand, this isn't intended to be like WoW where there's a set cookie-cutter spec for each class; this is a game where there's supposed to be a huge number of viable specs for each class. So, making swapping specs too restrictive will hurt that aspect of the game.
I think the limited 30-second cooldown method right now is a mistake, personally. I agree with needing a nephilem altar to swap skills. I also think that this can be a good addition to gameplay, by having altars show up in various dungeons as well as in town; perhaps some in randomized spots, and some in fixed locations (when I played through the beta, one of the levels in the cathedral had an altar right next to the entrance, if I remember correctly).
As for having a fee to respec, again this isn't the type of game to require a set, optimized build, but I do agree that a small cost isn't bad. However, if a cost is added in, I believe it should be based on character level as well, and be completely free at lower levels (probably not charging anything until 40, at the earliest), so someone playing a new class the option to swap skills and abilities freely while they're learning the class. (This is especially true since you can learn a new skill while leveling; you don't want to force players to pay a fee just to use that new skill.)
Also, I wouldn't object to the limitations on skill swapping being based on difficulty level. Say, on Normal mode, you can swap skills freely wherever you are, not requiring an altar or triggering a cooldown. In Nightmare, you can swap skills freely and trigger the 30 second cooldown, or if you're at an altar, there's no cooldown triggered. In Hell mode, you have to use an altar to swap, but some altars can be found inside dungeons, as well as in town. In Inferno mode, you still need an altar, and there are no altars inside dungeons, only in town.
Locking people into builds will = everyone not wanting to experiment, because most of us don't have time to re level a character. This in turn results in people googling 'fire mage' (WoW) and following that build. If you want 'meaning' in the choices people make, this will have the least amount.
BUT, if we give people the choice to experiment, that means everyone will try whatever they feel like. This in turn = many more people finding a unique build that they will stick with, which = a LOT more meaning that someone put into their build, because they found it themselves. This is the only solution to creating the environment you are for.
Why can't u understand that binding runes will let u experiment all u want till u find highlvl Inferno runes? And it will probably take a long time according to interviews where thay said about developers whiping for an hour on a Hell-boss. More of it, u'll still be able to change your choice after, but it will need some gold (highlvl rune) - instead of starting new character. The comparison to switching weapons in shooter is so true... I just want D3 to stay an RPG while getting Action through dynamic gameplay.
Its funny when people are defending free-speccing, they say that the game will have endless combinations of equally balanced skill selections.
But as soon as respec costs are mentioned, then suddenly the game will have optimal builds everyone would go for.
Does not compute.
If the game has wildly optimal builds people would go for them with or without free-specs.
However, the likelihood of the game having optimal builds is A LOT higher with a free-speccing scenario.
The reason: The shorter a challenge (=killing enemy X) your selection of skills has to overcome, the more likely is it that you can find 6 skills that are best for it.
Such as selecting 6 skills optimized for killing boss A, and 6 other skills for killing boss B.
If you 'have to' pick 6 skills which are decent for both boss A and boss B, you have to find a compromise between the optimal builds.
If you then add boss C, D, E and random mob X, then we reach the point that there will be many 'equally good - but not optimal' builds to go for when you can't respec all the time.
Bbut there will much more likely be a few optimal builds for any given situation, when you can respec for all of them, because the challenge the build has to be perfect against is much narrower.
If free-speccing does anything, it is reducing freedom since its increasing the benefits of going for an optimal selection of skills at any given moment.
It wont add more experimentation to the game, people will just have similar chars with 25 skills, which they change around whenever they need to re-optimize.
How awesome is that? Not much.
TLDR: It is easier to be great at one thing than to be great at everything. Freespeccing allows you to be great at everything though, where you otherwise would have needed to find a balance to be decent/viable at "everything" (depending on the respec cost).
You mis-read my post. I never once said one class feels like another, or a wizard feels like a barbarian. I said that theres no differentiation between my wizard and your wizard and some other random guys wizard. If I want my wizard to be the same as yours, 30 second cooldown later and its done. Theres no definition to make your own character unique and your own.
it sounded like you were saying they all feel the same. but on that note i never understood this. how does a few stat points differnet then another guy make you SO much different then anyone else? or the fact that you can swap around your build if you want ruin your own build that you made? i personally love making builds more then anything else and idc if someone can copy me, just makes me feel cool because they think my build is so good. the combonations of builds is in the tens of millions so its not like everyone will be using your build and visa versa. your character is what you make it and i dont think the option to easily change ruins it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
You mis-read my post. I never once said one class feels like another, or a wizard feels like a barbarian. I said that theres no differentiation between my wizard and your wizard and some other random guys wizard. If I want my wizard to be the same as yours, 30 second cooldown later and its done. Theres no definition to make your own character unique and your own.
Have you really been following D3?
Your Build is your skill layout. There are builds in D2 and D3 albeit alot less viable ones in D2 because of tree structure. agreed?
Your Character is your inherent layout. This includes your skills, stats, armor, weapons. OK?
Now in D2 you permanently selected stats and skills. In D3 your stats are automated and your build is malleable.
Look at my definition of Character, it includes armor and weapons thus your character in D3 is almost always going to be unique simply because no one else will have the same gear as you (randomly generated gear means almost no duplicates). Thus your wizard can have the same Build as my wizard but it won't be the same character due to my gear vs. your gear. This has always been the hidden objective of Diablo games: Who has the best gear.
I think your confused because other games dont have such a basis on gear. Most other RPGs, my wizard can put on the same gear (gear is not randomized) and the same build as your wizard; in which case our difference in character comes down to how we assigned stats. Its just different in D3, instead of it coming down to stat assignment your character is based on what gear you have.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Blizzard used to care about releasing Diablo III, then they all took an arrow in the knee...
Gear doesn't really define a character. Gear increases the numbers on a character, which is fine and everything, but it doesn't change who your character is.
Skills do that.
If Blizzard believes people will play this game over and over just for the gear they are mistaking. People did magic-find in Diablo 3 because of the huge number of unique characters you could build, so any new item would fit to your character.Also, gear is not like gear in WoW. You have very limited bragging to do in diablo. No mailbox to afk with that new mount, you are stuck with your friends, and random people you meet on bnet.
did you mean Diablo 2? and no there was not a "huge number of unique characters". there was MAYBE 30 viable builds between all 7 characters. in D3 there will be 100x more for ONE character then all of the characters in D2 combined. people magic find to get stronger and for bragging rights. gear is the same in D3 as it was in D2. and people will continue to play it for the same reasons.
if you think the need to make duplicate characters added ANYTHING to D2 you are blind. it took MAYBE 4 hours to get a char from 1 to 80 with all the runs/rushing going on. so 4 extra hours per char you made didnt add shit to the game and people need to realize that
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
Gear doesn't really define a character. Gear increases the numbers on a character, which is fine and everything, but it doesn't change who your character is.
Skills do that.
For D3 yes, gear does define the character. There is a stark difference between two barbs, one with rags and one with chainmail. The reason gear defines character in this case is simply because of how random Blizzard has made everything. That rare that you find in some hidden chest in the cathedral is likely going to be one of the very few of its type and it is YOURS. Its uniqueness imprinted on yourself makes it part of your character. Its a hard concept to grasp but this IS how the game is designed.
As I said this doesn't apply to most other RPGs but it definitely does for Diablo. This is also the reasoning for making skills based on your weapon damage- to basically magnify the uniqueness of your gear.
skills=build plain and simple.
BTW Guild Wars is a perfect example of an entirely build based game.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Blizzard used to care about releasing Diablo III, then they all took an arrow in the knee...
For D3 yes, gear does define the character. There is a stark difference between two barbs, one with rags and one with chainmail.
No.
What is the stark difference between a barb in rags and another in chainmail?
There simply is no difference in terms of who they are - if they have the same skills.
One might have 1000 hp and 43% armor, another might have 3000 hp and 60% armor, but it doesn't matter, that is just some arbitrary measure of their power, not something which incluence who or what those characters are and how they play.
This is also the reasoning for making skills based on your weapon damage- to basically magnify the uniqueness of your gear.
The reason for skills being weapondmg-based, is to solve the imbalance between melee chars such as barbs and caster-chars such as sorcs, which was seen in Diablo 2 for example.
It is to make everyone equally dependent on gear for more power (aka bigger numbers) instead of having some classes who can just focus on for example Magic find without losing much power.
the game will be the same with the cost of respecing or without it. your still going to go back to town to respec for a fight you know is coming up whether it cost something or not. and oh look were back to the same point where awww were all the same but we had to pay a fine to be the same. seriously it's annoying to hear people complain about this and want the fine to respec when in the end if its the best option then we are all going to choose it. But wait arn't the ITEMS in the game going to deversify us and head us in different directions for different builds set accordinly to what you have?
i agree with snaks42
who ever is complaining about this takes there shit way to hardcore stop flamin and start playing maybe you'll like it
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If at first you dont succeed
----------------------------------
Failure might be your thing
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Yes this thread again because the division on this topic is much much greater than you seem ready to admit.
I completely disagree with everything you said. The character generation is completely destroyed in this game. There should be hard choices, and yes, if you want a different type of character you should play a new character from scratch. Saying the majority of people don't want to level a character multiple times, is clearly your opinion and one I feel is incorrect. Everyone I know HATES the direction that D3 has taken with character development, and 10 years of Diablo II success actually point to having to start over as a key component in the game's longevity.
There should be no respecing anywhere but in town. And this respec should cost an increase amount of gold every time its done. there is no such thing as a build... only the skills currently equpied.
Thtas kinda what they are already attempting. Runes are your rway to level up your skill... i just hope to dear god that if you swap a skill the equiped ruin is destroyed.
2. I can attest that my friends and I while playing beta differ VASTLY in our builds. Since I was able to experiment with builds freely, I quickly found the one I like and I stick to it. Every time I level my DH I always pick elemental arrow, vault, chakram and grenades. For my passive I like to pick tactical advantage. My buddy who always loves the DH ALWAYS stays with his build; hungering arrow, rapid fire, shadow power and vault. My point being even with the limited skills available (about 12 out of about 120 per class) builds differ. This will even be more so at release.
TLDR; People are mistaking ease of access as being the enemy, when it's the players themselves. Making skills set in stone / making penalties will only force more players to go with the googled, most optimal builds. Instead, giving easier access to whatever builds people want to try will result in people finding their own, unique builds that they love, and will stick with.
/thread
Then Let them google the most optimal builds. I don't fucking care... all i know is that this skill swapping horseshit ruins the game, and THIS is what kills build diversity.
when you create a build with limits on respeccing... and you take the time to level it. That is YOUR build.... YOUR design... and you invested into it.
Right now the way it is... this is like a fucking first person shooter just switching guns... and its lame as fuck.
whaaa.....?? So you want build diversity, but admit that limiting people in their choices / making build set in stone will result in people googling the most optimal builds?
Please re read my post, because it explains this situation pretty damn well if I don't say so myself. And if you have nothing constructive to give back, please refrain from flaming / general raging, as it does no one good.
Everytime something works good it always gets followed... in any game... in any life event. I'm sorry dude but your logic is flawed.Saying that locking people into their builds will incease the amount of copy cats is illogical. Either way their will be min max copy cats. At least locking them into their build means that their build MEANS something.
Locking people into builds will = everyone not wanting to experiment, because most of us don't have time to re level a character. This in turn results in people googling 'fire mage' (WoW) and following that build. If you want 'meaning' in the choices people make, this will have the least amount.
BUT, if we give people the choice to experiment, that means everyone will try whatever they feel like. This in turn = many more people finding a unique build that they will stick with, which = a LOT more meaning that someone put into their build, because they found it themselves. This is the only solution to creating the environment you are for.
Then make a practice room or practice mode... but remove this piece of shit skill swapping. The whole myth of experimentation is absurd. You won't be experimenting every second of teh game... so you don't need skill swapping. A respec with penalty solves your problem just fine.
Myth? Have you played the game to prove otherwise? I can absolutely guarantee you that every time I level and get a new skill, I will experiment. Every time I find a new rune, I will experiment. I will experiment all the way until I'm level 60 and found a satisfying build. Then I will stick with it.
Pretend I'm a new player. You know what setting skills in stone / adding penalties does? This makes me alt - tab and see which build is the best, because I don't want to screw up. Whatever's at the top of the search list is what I'll be going for, and guess what! I'll be JUST like you!
There is no valid argument (proven by your rage / inability to articulate your point) why D3 needs to copy every game before it in heavy penalization when trying different builds. We both want the same thing; Build diversity. It's much more fun to join a public game with 3 others of the same class, only to see everyone using different skills / runes / passives. This will never be the case if you want it to go the way of D2, or WoW. Almost every class in D2 only had 1-3 builds that were viable in end game. Not exactly diversity. In wow there's only 3 specs per class that were diverse.
Diablo 3 is different, and I understand change is scary. I'm not trying to be a douche, I mean it. When something you love changes, everyone is hesitant. But just look at how it actually works, and realize this is for the better; In terms of skills everyone can pick what they want, and it will work.
Created an account here just to say:
THIS
But as soon as respec costs are mentioned, then suddenly the game will have optimal builds everyone would go for.
Does not compute.
If the game has wildly optimal builds people would go for them with or without free-specs.
However, the likelihood of the game having optimal builds is A LOT higher with a free-speccing scenario.
The reason: The shorter a challenge (=killing enemy X) your selection of skills has to overcome, the more likely is it that you can find 6 skills that are best for it.
Such as selecting 6 skills optimized for killing boss A, and 6 other skills for killing boss B.
If you 'have to' pick 6 skills which are decent for both boss A and boss B, you have to find a compromise between the optimal builds.
If you then add boss C, D, E and random mob X, then we reach the point that there will be many 'equally good - but not optimal' builds to go for when you can't respec all the time.
Bbut there will much more likely be a few optimal builds for any given situation, when you can respec for all of them, because the challenge the build has to be perfect against is much narrower.
If free-speccing does anything, it is reducing freedom since its increasing the benefits of going for an optimal selection of skills at any given moment.
It wont add more experimentation to the game, people will just have similar chars with 25 skills, which they change around whenever they need to re-optimize.
How awesome is that? Not much.
TLDR: It is easier to be great at one thing than to be great at everything. Freespeccing allows you to be great at everything though, where you otherwise would have needed to find a balance to be decent/viable at "everything" (depending on the respec cost).
it sounded like you were saying they all feel the same. but on that note i never understood this. how does a few stat points differnet then another guy make you SO much different then anyone else? or the fact that you can swap around your build if you want ruin your own build that you made? i personally love making builds more then anything else and idc if someone can copy me, just makes me feel cool because they think my build is so good. the combonations of builds is in the tens of millions so its not like everyone will be using your build and visa versa. your character is what you make it and i dont think the option to easily change ruins it.
Have you really been following D3?
Your Build is your skill layout. There are builds in D2 and D3 albeit alot less viable ones in D2 because of tree structure. agreed?
Your Character is your inherent layout. This includes your skills, stats, armor, weapons. OK?
Now in D2 you permanently selected stats and skills. In D3 your stats are automated and your build is malleable.
Look at my definition of Character, it includes armor and weapons thus your character in D3 is almost always going to be unique simply because no one else will have the same gear as you (randomly generated gear means almost no duplicates). Thus your wizard can have the same Build as my wizard but it won't be the same character due to my gear vs. your gear. This has always been the hidden objective of Diablo games: Who has the best gear.
I think your confused because other games dont have such a basis on gear. Most other RPGs, my wizard can put on the same gear (gear is not randomized) and the same build as your wizard; in which case our difference in character comes down to how we assigned stats. Its just different in D3, instead of it coming down to stat assignment your character is based on what gear you have.
Skills do that.
did you mean Diablo 2? and no there was not a "huge number of unique characters". there was MAYBE 30 viable builds between all 7 characters. in D3 there will be 100x more for ONE character then all of the characters in D2 combined. people magic find to get stronger and for bragging rights. gear is the same in D3 as it was in D2. and people will continue to play it for the same reasons.
if you think the need to make duplicate characters added ANYTHING to D2 you are blind. it took MAYBE 4 hours to get a char from 1 to 80 with all the runs/rushing going on. so 4 extra hours per char you made didnt add shit to the game and people need to realize that
For D3 yes, gear does define the character. There is a stark difference between two barbs, one with rags and one with chainmail. The reason gear defines character in this case is simply because of how random Blizzard has made everything. That rare that you find in some hidden chest in the cathedral is likely going to be one of the very few of its type and it is YOURS. Its uniqueness imprinted on yourself makes it part of your character. Its a hard concept to grasp but this IS how the game is designed.
As I said this doesn't apply to most other RPGs but it definitely does for Diablo. This is also the reasoning for making skills based on your weapon damage- to basically magnify the uniqueness of your gear.
skills=build plain and simple.
BTW Guild Wars is a perfect example of an entirely build based game.
What is the stark difference between a barb in rags and another in chainmail?
There simply is no difference in terms of who they are - if they have the same skills.
One might have 1000 hp and 43% armor, another might have 3000 hp and 60% armor, but it doesn't matter, that is just some arbitrary measure of their power, not something which incluence who or what those characters are and how they play.
The reason for skills being weapondmg-based, is to solve the imbalance between melee chars such as barbs and caster-chars such as sorcs, which was seen in Diablo 2 for example.
It is to make everyone equally dependent on gear for more power (aka bigger numbers) instead of having some classes who can just focus on for example Magic find without losing much power.
i agree with snaks42
who ever is complaining about this takes there shit way to hardcore stop flamin and start playing maybe you'll like it