I've been following Diablo III beta since it's announcement, grasping at every change and piece of information they would throw my way, and I just got my beta invite a few days ago. I've been playing the heck out of the beta and have beat it with several classes and I'm left with a feeling that none of my characters are unique. It may be just because this is early game and the addition of runestones may completely change my mind on this matter, but it feels like all of the characters I make have no differentiation from anyone elses characters. They FEEL the same.
I've never been a fan of getting rid of manual stat points and after having played the beta, I must say that it furthers my beliefs that this was a mistake. I understand that they want the game to be accessable to people who are new to the Diablo universe, or to Action RPG's in general, but at what point does it become too simple?
I also feel that there won't be much of a meta-game at the end of Diablo III. In Diablo II, you would make use of the meta-game because there were so many potential builds that you could keep making new characters and every single character could be unique, even if it was from the same class. As of now, once you make one of each class, you have to reason to make any additional characters because they can be so easily changed to a completely different type of build with no consiquence.
I'm not saying that bringing back manual stat points is the answer, but something is missing. There needs to be something more to individualize my character from anyone elses, and some incentive for me to make more than one character of each class. After all, there is no raiding and virtually no end-game content (inferno aside) for them to fall back on. Leveling, PVP, and MF'ing is what Diablo is about, and that's fine, but to me it feels like by allowing characters to change so easily, and having very little uniqueness, leveling is eliminated once you've been playing the game for say a year, and that drops one of your end-game options off the table.
I hope they will solve this with runesystem. It just can be so easy:
1) make runes dead-bound to skill, so u can't get it out, and with replacing it with another rune the previous one is gone;
2) if u swap-out the skill out of your 6-set, the rune in it destroys.
Therefore everyone will be able to try different build, but in the end-game will have to think which one to use, coz swapping will be VERY expensive with losing highlvl rune.
I hope they will solve this with runesystem. It just can be so easy:
1) make runes dead-bound to skill, so u can't get it out, and with replacing it with another rune the previous one is gone;
2) if u swap-out the skill out of your 6-set, the rune in it destroys.
Therefore everyone will be able to try different build, but in the end-game will have to think which one to use, coz swapping will be VERY expensive with losing highlvl rune.
This would definitely help in making your character less... re-usable? Maybe not the right word, but you get the idea. I still feel that only having one thing to customize isn't enough, but I understand that this won't change before release. But this is a minor complaint, as overall I love the game and will surely wait in line at a mid-night release.
I hope they will solve this with runesystem. It just can be so easy:
1) make runes dead-bound to skill, so u can't get it out, and with replacing it with another rune the previous one is gone;
2) if u swap-out the skill out of your 6-set, the rune in it destroys.
Therefore everyone will be able to try different build, but in the end-game will have to think which one to use, coz swapping will be VERY expensive with losing highlvl rune.
This would definitely help in making your character less... re-usable? Maybe not the right word, but you get the idea. I still feel that only having one thing to customize isn't enough, but I understand that this won't change before release. But this is a minor complaint, as overall I love the game and will surely wait in line at a mid-night release.
This way u gonna stuck ur skills with the runes...not being able to change it fast if u want or need...and u will need a lot on later game...
1. You only have ~10 skills and ~ 4 passives unlocked, out of the potential ~120 skills (runestones) and ~ 20 passives available per class.
2. Stat points were broken. They created an issue where if you screwed up you couldn't use half the gear you wanted, or it made you not able to kill anything in the second half of the difficulties. But alas, stat points are still in the game, but they are on gear instead of given per level. This makes the game that much more custom because you choose which gear with which stats you want. A far better system.
3. Having to level a new character every time you wanted to try a different build was also broken. Don't mistake something that was in D2 for good, just because it was in D2. There's nothing that stops you from leveling another character if you so choose, but the majority of the player base don't WANT to level the same class twice or 6 times.
All in all the removal of stat points is a great move, and your toon feels the same because there are almost no options available in the beta that will be at release, including later level spells, runes, passives and gear.
@Bidmal;
Ask yourself, why do you care so much that i can swap skills when i want? Why do you want to put such a penalty on it? There's no good reason because it's a control issue; For some reason people with your mindset have a seriously hard problem thinking that someone else in a different game that you'll probably never meet is able to switch skills. In my opinion the system in place now is awesome, and it bugs me that you want to control how I play the game. Nothing is stopping YOU from keeping whatever build you want, and in all actuality the majority of players will end up sticking with one build. But If they wanted to change, there's the option.
1. You only have ~10 skills and ~ 4 passives unlocked, out of the potential ~120 skills (runestones) and ~ 20 passives available per class.
2. Stat points were broken. They created an issue where if you screwed up you couldn't use half the gear you wanted, or it made you not able to kill anything in the second half of the difficulties. But alas, stat points are still in the game, but they are on gear instead of given per level. This makes the game that much more custom because you choose which gear with which stats you want. A far better system.
3. Having to level a new character every time you wanted to try a different build was also broken. Don't mistake something that was in D2 for good, just because it was in D2. There's nothing that stops you from leveling another character if you so choose, but the majority of the player base don't WANT to level the same class twice or 6 times.
All in all the removal of stat points is a great move, and your toon feels the same because there are almost no options available in the beta that will be at release, including later level spells, runes, passives and gear.
@Bidmal;
Ask yourself, why do you care so much that i can swap skills when i want? Why do you want to put such a penalty on it? There's no good reason because it's a control issue; For some reason people with your mindset have a seriously hard problem thinking that someone else in a different game that you'll probably never meet is able to switch skills. In my opinion the system in place now is awesome, and it bugs me that you want to control how I play the game. Nothing is stopping YOU from keeping whatever build you want, and in all actuality the majority of players will end up sticking with one build. But If they wanted to change, there's the option.
Ooo you can do math... doesn't mean your math is legitimate. The skill system as it is... with skill swapping sucks. Sorry but it does...
1. You only have ~10 skills and ~ 4 passives unlocked, out of the potential ~120 skills (runestones) and ~ 20 passives available per class.
2. Stat points were broken. They created an issue where if you screwed up you couldn't use half the gear you wanted, or it made you not able to kill anything in the second half of the difficulties. But alas, stat points are still in the game, but they are on gear instead of given per level. This makes the game that much more custom because you choose which gear with which stats you want. A far better system.
3. Having to level a new character every time you wanted to try a different build was also broken. Don't mistake something that was in D2 for good, just because it was in D2. There's nothing that stops you from leveling another character if you so choose, but the majority of the player base don't WANT to level the same class twice or 6 times.
All in all the removal of stat points is a great move, and your toon feels the same because there are almost no options available in the beta that will be at release, including later level spells, runes, passives and gear.
@Bidmal;
Ask yourself, why do you care so much that i can swap skills when i want? Why do you want to put such a penalty on it? There's no good reason because it's a control issue; For some reason people with your mindset have a seriously hard problem thinking that someone else in a different game that you'll probably never meet is able to switch skills. In my opinion the system in place now is awesome, and it bugs me that you want to control how I play the game. Nothing is stopping YOU from keeping whatever build you want, and in all actuality the majority of players will end up sticking with one build. But If they wanted to change, there's the option.
Ooo you can do math... doesn't mean your math is legitimate. The skill system as it is... with skill swapping sucks. Sorry but it does...
Listen, I take the time to actually give you figures, facts and legitimate opinions. If you're just going reduce yourself to stating something sucks, without backing that up, or hell even explaining why you personaly think it sucks, then this conversation isn't going to go anywhere. You need to either explain to me, maturely, why you think 'skill swapping sucks', or not reply at all.
@Bidmal;
Ask yourself, why do you care so much that i can swap skills when i want? Why do you want to put such a penalty on it? There's no good reason because it's a control issue; For some reason people with your mindset have a seriously hard problem thinking that someone else in a different game that you'll probably never meet is able to switch skills. In my opinion the system in place now is awesome, and it bugs me that you want to control how I play the game. Nothing is stopping YOU from keeping whatever build you want, and in all actuality the majority of players will end up sticking with one build. But If they wanted to change, there's the option.
Did u read the thread? We are talking about uniqueness of characters. There's nothing bad about it. So far there are only 5 possibilities - 5 classes. We want there to be more, so every class could have different builds, not just 30 skills between which he can swap with no penalty (30sec cd doesn't count).
I hope they will solve this with runesystem. It just can be so easy:
1) make runes dead-bound to skill, so u can't get it out, and with replacing it with another rune the previous one is gone;
2) if u swap-out the skill out of your 6-set, the rune in it destroys.
Therefore everyone will be able to try different build, but in the end-game will have to think which one to use, coz swapping will be VERY expensive with losing highlvl rune.
That would be a decent solution for all the major problems I have with the game right now (pretty much all of them relates to the skill-swapping and lack of uniqueness/meaningful customization).
So I don't see it happening
1. You only have ~10 skills and ~ 4 passives unlocked, out of the potential ~120 skills (runestones) and ~ 20 passives available per class.
2. Stat points were broken. They created an issue where if you screwed up you couldn't use half the gear you wanted, or it made you not able to kill anything in the second half of the difficulties. But alas, stat points are still in the game, but they are on gear instead of given per level. This makes the game that much more custom because you choose which gear with which stats you want. A far better system.
3. Having to level a new character every time you wanted to try a different build was also broken. Don't mistake something that was in D2 for good, just because it was in D2. There's nothing that stops you from leveling another character if you so choose, but the majority of the player base don't WANT to level the same class twice or 6 times.
All in all the removal of stat points is a great move, and your toon feels the same because there are almost no options available in the beta that will be at release, including later level spells, runes, passives and gear.
@Bidmal;
Ask yourself, why do you care so much that i can swap skills when i want? Why do you want to put such a penalty on it? There's no good reason because it's a control issue; For some reason people with your mindset have a seriously hard problem thinking that someone else in a different game that you'll probably never meet is able to switch skills. In my opinion the system in place now is awesome, and it bugs me that you want to control how I play the game. Nothing is stopping YOU from keeping whatever build you want, and in all actuality the majority of players will end up sticking with one build. But If they wanted to change, there's the option.
Ooo you can do math... doesn't mean your math is legitimate. The skill system as it is... with skill swapping sucks. Sorry but it does...
Listen, I take the time to actually give you figures, facts and legitimate opinions. If you're just going reduce yourself to stating something sucks, without backing that up, or hell even explaining why you personaly think it sucks, then this conversation isn't going to go anywhere. You need to either explain to me, maturely, why you think 'skill swapping sucks', or not reply at all.
Its because 1.) i was getting ready to leave work... 2.) i've already had this argument several times:
Regardless of the number of possile permutations... it doesn't mean thats there much fucking diversity. As was said ... exactly to you in another thread:
Yay! someone else who hasn't done the math! Guess what bud, D3 has over 1.5 billion builds per class. Take that to the bank and cash it.
I get your point but these are just arbitrary numbers anyway. It's like saying the rubiks cube is some sort of infinite puzzle because it's got a total number of 43,252,003,274,489,856,000 possible permutations. Yet it can always be solved in 20 moves. I know my analogy isn't the best but my point is even though there's ~1.5 billion builds per class each individual aren't going to use more than a handful.
It gets even worse ... because its not truely a build when you can just flip flop skills depending on the situation.... I can switch to any passive i want... for any situation i encounter. I can switch to any skill i want... for any encounter (as it currently is... rune stone destruction will hopefully be implemented and change this).
I've been following Diablo III beta since it's announcement, grasping at every change and piece of information they would throw my way, and I just got my beta invite a few days ago. I've been playing the heck out of the beta and have beat it with several classes and I'm left with a feeling that none of my characters are unique. It may be just because this is early game and the addition of runestones may completely change my mind on this matter, but it feels like all of the characters I make have no differentiation from anyone elses characters. They FEEL the same.
I've never been a fan of getting rid of manual stat points and after having played the beta, I must say that it furthers my beliefs that this was a mistake. I understand that they want the game to be accessable to people who are new to the Diablo universe, or to Action RPG's in general, but at what point does it become too simple?
I also feel that there won't be much of a meta-game at the end of Diablo III. In Diablo II, you would make use of the meta-game because there were so many potential builds that you could keep making new characters and every single character could be unique, even if it was from the same class. As of now, once you make one of each class, you have to reason to make any additional characters because they can be so easily changed to a completely different type of build with no consiquence.
I'm not saying that bringing back manual stat points is the answer, but something is missing. There needs to be something more to individualize my character from anyone elses, and some incentive for me to make more than one character of each class. After all, there is no raiding and virtually no end-game content (inferno aside) for them to fall back on. Leveling, PVP, and MF'ing is what Diablo is about, and that's fine, but to me it feels like by allowing characters to change so easily, and having very little uniqueness, leveling is eliminated once you've been playing the game for say a year, and that drops one of your end-game options off the table.
first of all making duplicate characters was never a good part of D2. in fact i think it was one of its biggest flaws. having to re-do an entire character, re-level, regear (or swap) just because you want to try out a different build? thats ridiculous. and they've fixed this issue with D3. which I'm glad, no more "oops i messed up on a skill point, time to re-roll". fail. no more "meh i don't like this build very much after 20 levels, re-roll again". fail. if you enjoyed re-creating the same class over and over and OVER just to test out another build then ok thats you, and most people hated that. they only recently implemented the re-allocation of skill points after 10 damn years, but it didn't make the skill system any better because its just a fail system in general also.
i just received beta also and maxed out them all to 13. every class is completely different. they feel way different also. each class has different variations of skills, different resource systems/mechanics and some different gear they can each use. so i have no idea why your saying they "feel the same" when none of the classes are alike besides "ranged class" "melee class" as their general type.
i think you may be feeling like this because we have access to so little, like you said the rune system. it does make up like 90% of the skill system so theres that. and the beginning of any game feels the same, think about WoW or even D2, the VERY beginning "felt" kind of the same for some of the classes until you got higher. imho in D3 even in the beginning the classes don't feel the same, but i guess thats just me.
stat points have simply just moved. instead of using them each level, the gear you acquire or create has the attributes on them and you pick which gear you want based on the stats you want also. i know this isn't what you meant but its sort of similar how they did it, when you look at what the BS can craft you'll see they have set stats and then random property chances.
honestly too many people judge this game based on the 1/48th demo that is the beta and no one can really draw anything substantial from it because of that fact.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
@sabvre well I still agree with Snaks42 But the only way that I can see your point would be to also make a comment that the only way to remedy the issue would be to mainly focus on how blizzard balances such skill and diversity issues. to do this,
The diversity of skills is dependent solely on their ability to give each skill the focus to lead a build and thus carry more compliments and serve to be just as viable as any other build thus supporting both your concerns and applying Snaks42's logic to the large pool of potential values though common use of combinatronics,which of course shows that this is very difficult. like bile toads being a main build for damage but being supported by something else, and that something else can be built to also be your main source of damage, so players do not cling to one source or build over another. Everything is viable and everything is a potential solution to your issue.
Essentially the runesystem and how it operates is still up in the air in terms of how they will handle the disposal and re-use of each rune thus the reason for beta. I do have high hopes for this game and balance is something that can never be achieved due to a players individual variance in skill but all you can do as a developer is strive for a statistical basis on both player base and mathematical formulaic values.
Tell me what game has tremendous variance and diversity simply on the first 13 levels? (of course being within the same context as Diablo3 mechanics) I am also curious as to your solution, you obviously find this to be a great problem, so you must have an opinion as to how to make it better? this is how we can fix this.
@sabvre well I still agree with Snaks42 But the only way that I can see your point would be to also make a comment that the only way to remedy the issue would be to mainly focus on how blizzard balances such skill and diversity issues. to do this,
The diversity of skills is dependent solely on their ability to give each skill the focus to lead a build and thus carry more compliments and serve to be just as viable as any other build thus supporting both your concerns and applying Snaks42's logic to the large pool of potential values though common use of combinatronics,which of course shows that this is very difficult. like bile toads being a main build for damage but being supported by something else, and that something else can be built to also be your main source of damage, so players do not cling to one source or build over another. Everything is viable and everything is a potential solution to your issue.
Essentially the runesystem and how it operates is still up in the air in terms of how they will handle the disposal and re-use of each rune thus the reason for beta. I do have high hopes for this game and balance is something that can never be achieved due to a players individual variance in skill but all you can do as a developer is strive for a statistical basis on both player base and mathematical formulaic values.
Tell me what game has tremendous variance and diversity simply on the first 13 levels? (of course being within the same context as Diablo3 mechanics) I am also curious as to your solution, you obviously find this to be a great problem, so you must have an opinion as to how to make it better? this is how we can fix this.
remove skill swapping. Respecs should be in town, with an increasing gold cost. No Nephalem altar... no skill swapping outside of town AT ALL.... and more importantly not for free.
honestly too many people judge this game based on the 1/48th demo that is the beta and no one can really draw anything substantial from it because of that fact.
I just love it when people say this. What are you judging (although positively) on, then?
If people don't like what they see in the beta, yeah, chances are very big they won't like the game altogether. Yeah, it's really THAT simple.
if you negatively judged anything in life on 1/48th of it, you would misjudge most everything in life. dont be a imbecile
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
1. You only have ~10 skills and ~ 4 passives unlocked, out of the potential ~120 skills (runestones) and ~ 20 passives available per class.
2. Stat points were broken. They created an issue where if you screwed up you couldn't use half the gear you wanted, or it made you not able to kill anything in the second half of the difficulties. But alas, stat points are still in the game, but they are on gear instead of given per level. This makes the game that much more custom because you choose which gear with which stats you want. A far better system.
3. Having to level a new character every time you wanted to try a different build was also broken. Don't mistake something that was in D2 for good, just because it was in D2. There's nothing that stops you from leveling another character if you so choose, but the majority of the player base don't WANT to level the same class twice or 6 times.
All in all the removal of stat points is a great move, and your toon feels the same because there are almost no options available in the beta that will be at release, including later level spells, runes, passives and gear.
@Bidmal;
Ask yourself, why do you care so much that i can swap skills when i want? Why do you want to put such a penalty on it? There's no good reason because it's a control issue; For some reason people with your mindset have a seriously hard problem thinking that someone else in a different game that you'll probably never meet is able to switch skills. In my opinion the system in place now is awesome, and it bugs me that you want to control how I play the game. Nothing is stopping YOU from keeping whatever build you want, and in all actuality the majority of players will end up sticking with one build. But If they wanted to change, there's the option.
Ooo you can do math... doesn't mean your math is legitimate. The skill system as it is... with skill swapping sucks. Sorry but it does...
Listen, I take the time to actually give you figures, facts and legitimate opinions. If you're just going reduce yourself to stating something sucks, without backing that up, or hell even explaining why you personaly think it sucks, then this conversation isn't going to go anywhere. You need to either explain to me, maturely, why you think 'skill swapping sucks', or not reply at all.
Its because 1.) i was getting ready to leave work... 2.) i've already had this argument several times:
Regardless of the number of possile permutations... it doesn't mean thats there much fucking diversity. As was said ... exactly to you in another thread:
Yay! someone else who hasn't done the math! Guess what bud, D3 has over 1.5 billion builds per class. Take that to the bank and cash it.
I get your point but these are just arbitrary numbers anyway. It's like saying the rubiks cube is some sort of infinite puzzle because it's got a total number of 43,252,003,274,489,856,000 possible permutations. Yet it can always be solved in 20 moves. I know my analogy isn't the best but my point is even though there's ~1.5 billion builds per class each individual aren't going to use more than a handful.
It gets even worse ... because its not truely a build when you can just flip flop skills depending on the situation.... I can switch to any passive i want... for any situation i encounter. I can switch to any skill i want... for any encounter (as it currently is... rune stone destruction will hopefully be implemented and change this).
The ONLY difference between D3 and D2 is I can swap EASIER, but I was still ABLE to swap in D2! What skills I pick to use at that very point is diverse from the thousands of other players playing the class I am. Like EVERY other game, I'm able to swap skills to what I want. Other games have harsher penalties, and I along with many others actually don't like that, because I would swap anyway. It's quite honestly the fact that you can't stand that I could switch when I want to, and it's a control issue. You, for whatever reason, want to control me and the rest of the player base, because it's how YOU want to play.
Seriously, quit worrying about what other people are doing in their own games while playing diablo.
I've been following Diablo III beta since it's announcement, grasping at every change and piece of information they would throw my way, and I just got my beta invite a few days ago. I've been playing the heck out of the beta and have beat it with several classes and I'm left with a feeling that none of my characters are unique. It may be just because this is early game and the addition of runestones may completely change my mind on this matter, but it feels like all of the characters I make have no differentiation from anyone elses characters. They FEEL the same.
I've never been a fan of getting rid of manual stat points and after having played the beta, I must say that it furthers my beliefs that this was a mistake. I understand that they want the game to be accessable to people who are new to the Diablo universe, or to Action RPG's in general, but at what point does it become too simple?
I also feel that there won't be much of a meta-game at the end of Diablo III. In Diablo II, you would make use of the meta-game because there were so many potential builds that you could keep making new characters and every single character could be unique, even if it was from the same class. As of now, once you make one of each class, you have to reason to make any additional characters because they can be so easily changed to a completely different type of build with no consiquence.
I'm not saying that bringing back manual stat points is the answer, but something is missing. There needs to be something more to individualize my character from anyone elses, and some incentive for me to make more than one character of each class. After all, there is no raiding and virtually no end-game content (inferno aside) for them to fall back on. Leveling, PVP, and MF'ing is what Diablo is about, and that's fine, but to me it feels like by allowing characters to change so easily, and having very little uniqueness, leveling is eliminated once you've been playing the game for say a year, and that drops one of your end-game options off the table.
first of all making duplicate characters was never a good part of D2. in fact i think it was one of its biggest flaws. having to re-do an entire character, re-level, regear (or swap) just because you want to try out a different build? thats ridiculous. and they've fixed this issue with D3. which I'm glad, no more "oops i messed up on a skill point, time to re-roll". fail. no more "meh i don't like this build very much after 20 levels, re-roll again". fail. if you enjoyed re-creating the same class over and over and OVER just to test out another build then ok thats you, and most people hated that. they only recently implemented the re-allocation of skill points after 10 damn years, but it didn't make the skill system any better because its just a fail system in general also.
i just received beta also and maxed out them all to 13. every class is completely different. they feel way different also. each class has different variations of skills, different resource systems/mechanics and some different gear they can each use. so i have no idea why your saying they "feel the same" when none of the classes are alike besides "ranged class" "melee class" as their general type.
i think you may be feeling like this because we have access to so little, like you said the rune system. it does make up like 90% of the skill system so theres that. and the beginning of any game feels the same, think about WoW or even D2, the VERY beginning "felt" kind of the same for some of the classes until you got higher. imho in D3 even in the beginning the classes don't feel the same, but i guess thats just me.
stat points have simply just moved. instead of using them each level, the gear you acquire or create has the attributes on them and you pick which gear you want based on the stats you want also. i know this isn't what you meant but its sort of similar how they did it, when you look at what the BS can craft you'll see they have set stats and then random property chances.
honestly too many people judge this game based on the 1/48th demo that is the beta and no one can really draw anything substantial from it because of that fact.
You mis-read my post. I never once said one class feels like another, or a wizard feels like a barbarian. I said that theres no differentiation between my wizard and your wizard and some other random guys wizard. If I want my wizard to be the same as yours, 30 second cooldown later and its done. Theres no definition to make your own character unique and your own.
I regret wasting my time reading this thread. So many of these popping up. I guess D3 is going to be dog shit until we get D2's awesome (lol) skill trees. Do you guys even think for one second about how D2 really was? Whoa man, I'm so much different than that other zealot I'm playing with. I have 119 str, he only has 112. It doesn't even matter that we have the same spec and the same gear, I have 7 more strength. Goddamn that is some uniqueness right here.
Why not wait and see until all the skills are unlocked for every class when the game releases? Every class is going to have different skill sets to play different roles, from tanking to healing to utility, in melee range or from afar. The only way I see people not being unique even with the rune system is that if they make a certain color so overpowered that using the other colors would be detrimental to progress.
Personally, I understand the concerns about characters feeling unique enough; while there are a near-infinite number of possible combinations of skills and passives, there's nothing forcing a character to stick with a certain combination.
On the other hand, this isn't intended to be like WoW where there's a set cookie-cutter spec for each class; this is a game where there's supposed to be a huge number of viable specs for each class. So, making swapping specs too restrictive will hurt that aspect of the game.
I think the limited 30-second cooldown method right now is a mistake, personally. I agree with needing a nephilem altar to swap skills. I also think that this can be a good addition to gameplay, by having altars show up in various dungeons as well as in town; perhaps some in randomized spots, and some in fixed locations (when I played through the beta, one of the levels in the cathedral had an altar right next to the entrance, if I remember correctly).
As for having a fee to respec, again this isn't the type of game to require a set, optimized build, but I do agree that a small cost isn't bad. However, if a cost is added in, I believe it should be based on character level as well, and be completely free at lower levels (probably not charging anything until 40, at the earliest), so someone playing a new class the option to swap skills and abilities freely while they're learning the class. (This is especially true since you can learn a new skill while leveling; you don't want to force players to pay a fee just to use that new skill.)
Also, I wouldn't object to the limitations on skill swapping being based on difficulty level. Say, on Normal mode, you can swap skills freely wherever you are, not requiring an altar or triggering a cooldown. In Nightmare, you can swap skills freely and trigger the 30 second cooldown, or if you're at an altar, there's no cooldown triggered. In Hell mode, you have to use an altar to swap, but some altars can be found inside dungeons, as well as in town. In Inferno mode, you still need an altar, and there are no altars inside dungeons, only in town.
There is no real point in letting them be in a dungeon after you have the Town Portal (referring to the alters) , it takes less than 30 seconds (the current cd) to town portal, click new spell, click your portal back.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I've never been a fan of getting rid of manual stat points and after having played the beta, I must say that it furthers my beliefs that this was a mistake. I understand that they want the game to be accessable to people who are new to the Diablo universe, or to Action RPG's in general, but at what point does it become too simple?
I also feel that there won't be much of a meta-game at the end of Diablo III. In Diablo II, you would make use of the meta-game because there were so many potential builds that you could keep making new characters and every single character could be unique, even if it was from the same class. As of now, once you make one of each class, you have to reason to make any additional characters because they can be so easily changed to a completely different type of build with no consiquence.
I'm not saying that bringing back manual stat points is the answer, but something is missing. There needs to be something more to individualize my character from anyone elses, and some incentive for me to make more than one character of each class. After all, there is no raiding and virtually no end-game content (inferno aside) for them to fall back on. Leveling, PVP, and MF'ing is what Diablo is about, and that's fine, but to me it feels like by allowing characters to change so easily, and having very little uniqueness, leveling is eliminated once you've been playing the game for say a year, and that drops one of your end-game options off the table.
1) make runes dead-bound to skill, so u can't get it out, and with replacing it with another rune the previous one is gone;
2) if u swap-out the skill out of your 6-set, the rune in it destroys.
Therefore everyone will be able to try different build, but in the end-game will have to think which one to use, coz swapping will be VERY expensive with losing highlvl rune.
This would definitely help in making your character less... re-usable? Maybe not the right word, but you get the idea. I still feel that only having one thing to customize isn't enough, but I understand that this won't change before release. But this is a minor complaint, as overall I love the game and will surely wait in line at a mid-night release.
This way u gonna stuck ur skills with the runes...not being able to change it fast if u want or need...and u will need a lot on later game...
1. You only have ~10 skills and ~ 4 passives unlocked, out of the potential ~120 skills (runestones) and ~ 20 passives available per class.
2. Stat points were broken. They created an issue where if you screwed up you couldn't use half the gear you wanted, or it made you not able to kill anything in the second half of the difficulties. But alas, stat points are still in the game, but they are on gear instead of given per level. This makes the game that much more custom because you choose which gear with which stats you want. A far better system.
3. Having to level a new character every time you wanted to try a different build was also broken. Don't mistake something that was in D2 for good, just because it was in D2. There's nothing that stops you from leveling another character if you so choose, but the majority of the player base don't WANT to level the same class twice or 6 times.
All in all the removal of stat points is a great move, and your toon feels the same because there are almost no options available in the beta that will be at release, including later level spells, runes, passives and gear.
@Bidmal;
Ask yourself, why do you care so much that i can swap skills when i want? Why do you want to put such a penalty on it? There's no good reason because it's a control issue; For some reason people with your mindset have a seriously hard problem thinking that someone else in a different game that you'll probably never meet is able to switch skills. In my opinion the system in place now is awesome, and it bugs me that you want to control how I play the game. Nothing is stopping YOU from keeping whatever build you want, and in all actuality the majority of players will end up sticking with one build. But If they wanted to change, there's the option.
Ooo you can do math... doesn't mean your math is legitimate. The skill system as it is... with skill swapping sucks. Sorry but it does...
Listen, I take the time to actually give you figures, facts and legitimate opinions. If you're just going reduce yourself to stating something sucks, without backing that up, or hell even explaining why you personaly think it sucks, then this conversation isn't going to go anywhere. You need to either explain to me, maturely, why you think 'skill swapping sucks', or not reply at all.
So I don't see it happening
Its because 1.) i was getting ready to leave work... 2.) i've already had this argument several times:
Regardless of the number of possile permutations... it doesn't mean thats there much fucking diversity. As was said ... exactly to you in another thread:
It gets even worse ... because its not truely a build when you can just flip flop skills depending on the situation.... I can switch to any passive i want... for any situation i encounter. I can switch to any skill i want... for any encounter (as it currently is... rune stone destruction will hopefully be implemented and change this).
first of all making duplicate characters was never a good part of D2. in fact i think it was one of its biggest flaws. having to re-do an entire character, re-level, regear (or swap) just because you want to try out a different build? thats ridiculous. and they've fixed this issue with D3. which I'm glad, no more "oops i messed up on a skill point, time to re-roll". fail. no more "meh i don't like this build very much after 20 levels, re-roll again". fail. if you enjoyed re-creating the same class over and over and OVER just to test out another build then ok thats you, and most people hated that. they only recently implemented the re-allocation of skill points after 10 damn years, but it didn't make the skill system any better because its just a fail system in general also.
i just received beta also and maxed out them all to 13. every class is completely different. they feel way different also. each class has different variations of skills, different resource systems/mechanics and some different gear they can each use. so i have no idea why your saying they "feel the same" when none of the classes are alike besides "ranged class" "melee class" as their general type.
i think you may be feeling like this because we have access to so little, like you said the rune system. it does make up like 90% of the skill system so theres that. and the beginning of any game feels the same, think about WoW or even D2, the VERY beginning "felt" kind of the same for some of the classes until you got higher. imho in D3 even in the beginning the classes don't feel the same, but i guess thats just me.
stat points have simply just moved. instead of using them each level, the gear you acquire or create has the attributes on them and you pick which gear you want based on the stats you want also. i know this isn't what you meant but its sort of similar how they did it, when you look at what the BS can craft you'll see they have set stats and then random property chances.
honestly too many people judge this game based on the 1/48th demo that is the beta and no one can really draw anything substantial from it because of that fact.
The diversity of skills is dependent solely on their ability to give each skill the focus to lead a build and thus carry more compliments and serve to be just as viable as any other build thus supporting both your concerns and applying Snaks42's logic to the large pool of potential values though common use of combinatronics,which of course shows that this is very difficult. like bile toads being a main build for damage but being supported by something else, and that something else can be built to also be your main source of damage, so players do not cling to one source or build over another. Everything is viable and everything is a potential solution to your issue.
Essentially the runesystem and how it operates is still up in the air in terms of how they will handle the disposal and re-use of each rune thus the reason for beta. I do have high hopes for this game and balance is something that can never be achieved due to a players individual variance in skill but all you can do as a developer is strive for a statistical basis on both player base and mathematical formulaic values.
Tell me what game has tremendous variance and diversity simply on the first 13 levels? (of course being within the same context as Diablo3 mechanics) I am also curious as to your solution, you obviously find this to be a great problem, so you must have an opinion as to how to make it better? this is how we can fix this.
remove skill swapping. Respecs should be in town, with an increasing gold cost. No Nephalem altar... no skill swapping outside of town AT ALL.... and more importantly not for free.
if you negatively judged anything in life on 1/48th of it, you would misjudge most everything in life. dont be a imbecile
The ONLY difference between D3 and D2 is I can swap EASIER, but I was still ABLE to swap in D2! What skills I pick to use at that very point is diverse from the thousands of other players playing the class I am. Like EVERY other game, I'm able to swap skills to what I want. Other games have harsher penalties, and I along with many others actually don't like that, because I would swap anyway. It's quite honestly the fact that you can't stand that I could switch when I want to, and it's a control issue. You, for whatever reason, want to control me and the rest of the player base, because it's how YOU want to play.
Seriously, quit worrying about what other people are doing in their own games while playing diablo.
You mis-read my post. I never once said one class feels like another, or a wizard feels like a barbarian. I said that theres no differentiation between my wizard and your wizard and some other random guys wizard. If I want my wizard to be the same as yours, 30 second cooldown later and its done. Theres no definition to make your own character unique and your own.
Why not wait and see until all the skills are unlocked for every class when the game releases? Every class is going to have different skill sets to play different roles, from tanking to healing to utility, in melee range or from afar. The only way I see people not being unique even with the rune system is that if they make a certain color so overpowered that using the other colors would be detrimental to progress.
Battle.net Profile / Diablo Progress Profile
On the other hand, this isn't intended to be like WoW where there's a set cookie-cutter spec for each class; this is a game where there's supposed to be a huge number of viable specs for each class. So, making swapping specs too restrictive will hurt that aspect of the game.
I think the limited 30-second cooldown method right now is a mistake, personally. I agree with needing a nephilem altar to swap skills. I also think that this can be a good addition to gameplay, by having altars show up in various dungeons as well as in town; perhaps some in randomized spots, and some in fixed locations (when I played through the beta, one of the levels in the cathedral had an altar right next to the entrance, if I remember correctly).
As for having a fee to respec, again this isn't the type of game to require a set, optimized build, but I do agree that a small cost isn't bad. However, if a cost is added in, I believe it should be based on character level as well, and be completely free at lower levels (probably not charging anything until 40, at the earliest), so someone playing a new class the option to swap skills and abilities freely while they're learning the class. (This is especially true since you can learn a new skill while leveling; you don't want to force players to pay a fee just to use that new skill.)
Also, I wouldn't object to the limitations on skill swapping being based on difficulty level. Say, on Normal mode, you can swap skills freely wherever you are, not requiring an altar or triggering a cooldown. In Nightmare, you can swap skills freely and trigger the 30 second cooldown, or if you're at an altar, there's no cooldown triggered. In Hell mode, you have to use an altar to swap, but some altars can be found inside dungeons, as well as in town. In Inferno mode, you still need an altar, and there are no altars inside dungeons, only in town.