In efforts that this point is not missed due to the new page:
The only issue I have with this thread is the fact that everything you're complaining about has already been complained about. And quite frankly, most of those complaints were followed up with reasonable explanations directly from the creators. All of the decisions have been well documented and publicized.
Yet, you choose to simply ignore the very public reasoning behind some of the systems you are complaining about. Instead, you simply add fire to the flames without giving any real motivation to engage in a discussion due to the fact that you chose to neglect the obvious points in retort to all of your complaints.
Please address this so that this thread can garner some sort of substance.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
As frustrating and finite as the D2 stats system was, I did like the fact that your build did take some thought, trying, failing and even research, this gave the game it's longevity. If in D3 it turns out that you can swap between (for instance i'll use d2 builds) a Frost Sorcerer to Fire Sorc just by resetting the stat points/skills anytime you want, people will have played ALL of the builds by the time they play a character through ONCE. As opposed to having to start again with a fresh character for every build.
In terms of numbers. (These are just example numbers)
- Say there are 5 characters
- With for example 3 different proper builds each.
= That is 15 builds right?
With D2 system that would equal 15 unique play throughs.
With D3 system that would equal 5 unique play throughs.
Which looking at it this way, is a shorter life span of the game. But that is not to say it will be much more enjoyable and flexible with add-ons and a heap of dlc content. I suppose I am just trying to simplify these points into a possible scenario.
Or........maybe i've had too much coffee, either way lol
As frustrating and finite as the D2 stats system was, I did like the fact that your build did take some thought, trying, failing and even research, this gave the game it's longevity. If in D3 it turns out that you can swap between (for instance i'll use d2 builds) a Frost Sorcerer to Fire Sorc just by resetting the stat points/skills anytime you want, people will have played ALL of the builds by the time they play a character through ONCE. As opposed to having to start again with a fresh character for every build.
In terms of numbers. (These are just example numbers)
- Say there are 5 characters
- With for example 3 different proper builds each.
= That is 15 builds right?
With D2 system that would equal 15 unique play throughs.
With D3 system that would equal 5 unique play throughs.
Which looking at it this way, is a shorter life span of the game. But that is not to say it will be much more enjoyable and flexible with add-ons and a heap of dlc content. I suppose I am just trying to simplify these points into a possible scenario.
Or........maybe i've had too much coffee, either way lol
Yay! someone else who hasn't done the math! Guess what bud, D3 has over 1.5 billion builds per class. Take that to the bank and cash it.
its only "bad lag" is due to about 100k new people playing and very few servers. It runs fine every other day. One key point of you even getting in now, was for them to see how the game plays when a server is filled way to much. You can expect more servers / less lag in the days to come
as for what you said about talent system, I really like this pic
i agree with you completely, i just think people are so used to tree systems now they done realize its technically the same thing...
As frustrating and finite as the D2 stats system was, I did like the fact that your build did take some thought, trying, failing and even research, this gave the game it's longevity. If in D3 it turns out that you can swap between (for instance i'll use d2 builds) a Frost Sorcerer to Fire Sorc just by resetting the stat points/skills anytime you want, people will have played ALL of the builds by the time they play a character through ONCE. As opposed to having to start again with a fresh character for every build.
In terms of numbers. (These are just example numbers)
- Say there are 5 characters
- With for example 3 different proper builds each.
= That is 15 builds right?
With D2 system that would equal 15 unique play throughs.
With D3 system that would equal 5 unique play throughs.
Which looking at it this way, is a shorter life span of the game. But that is not to say it will be much more enjoyable and flexible with add-ons and a heap of dlc content. I suppose I am just trying to simplify these points into a possible scenario.
Or........maybe i've had too much coffee, either way lol
Yay! someone else who hasn't done the math! Guess what bud, D3 has over 1.5 billion builds per class. Take that to the bank and cash it.
Omfg are you serious, I don't mean unique builds as in the amount of different possible combinations, I mean general builds, like 'hammerdin' etc. Of course there are millions of actual 'unique' builds, ffs.
As frustrating and finite as the D2 stats system was, I did like the fact that your build did take some thought, trying, failing and even research, this gave the game it's longevity. If in D3 it turns out that you can swap between (for instance i'll use d2 builds) a Frost Sorcerer to Fire Sorc just by resetting the stat points/skills anytime you want, people will have played ALL of the builds by the time they play a character through ONCE. As opposed to having to start again with a fresh character for every build.
In terms of numbers. (These are just example numbers)
- Say there are 5 characters
- With for example 3 different proper builds each.
= That is 15 builds right?
With D2 system that would equal 15 unique play throughs.
With D3 system that would equal 5 unique play throughs.
Which looking at it this way, is a shorter life span of the game. But that is not to say it will be much more enjoyable and flexible with add-ons and a heap of dlc content. I suppose I am just trying to simplify these points into a possible scenario.
Or........maybe i've had too much coffee, either way lol
Yay! someone else who hasn't done the math! Guess what bud, D3 has over 1.5 billion builds per class. Take that to the bank and cash it.
Omfg are you serious, I don't mean unique builds as in the amount of different possible combinations, I mean general builds, like 'hammerdin' etc. Of course there are millions of actual 'unique' builds, ffs.
Ah again, you don't understand. With D3, 90% of those builds are actually viable. Thus you can nickname whatever you like. In D2 if you didn't do one of like 4 builds, you couldn't solo hell, thus they were worthless.
Edit: To make it simpler
Amount of viable builds in D2 (meaning you can solo all of hell, in a timely manner w/o runewords bought off line lol) = like what, ~4 or 5?
As frustrating and finite as the D2 stats system was, I did like the fact that your build did take some thought, trying, failing and even research, this gave the game it's longevity. If in D3 it turns out that you can swap between (for instance i'll use d2 builds) a Frost Sorcerer to Fire Sorc just by resetting the stat points/skills anytime you want, people will have played ALL of the builds by the time they play a character through ONCE. As opposed to having to start again with a fresh character for every build.
In terms of numbers. (These are just example numbers)
- Say there are 5 characters
- With for example 3 different proper builds each.
= That is 15 builds right?
With D2 system that would equal 15 unique play throughs.
With D3 system that would equal 5 unique play throughs.
Which looking at it this way, is a shorter life span of the game. But that is not to say it will be much more enjoyable and flexible with add-ons and a heap of dlc content. I suppose I am just trying to simplify these points into a possible scenario.
Or........maybe i've had too much coffee, either way lol
Yay! someone else who hasn't done the math! Guess what bud, D3 has over 1.5 billion builds per class. Take that to the bank and cash it.
Omfg are you serious, I don't mean unique builds as in the amount of different possible combinations, I mean general builds, like 'hammerdin' etc. Of course there are millions of actual 'unique' builds, ffs.
Ah again, you don't understand. With D3, 90% of those builds are actually viable. Thus you can nickname whatever you like. In D2 if you didn't do one of like 4 builds, you couldn't solo hell, thus they were worthless.
Firstly, how can you even know if these 90% of builds are going to be viable? If I'm not mistaken the game is not out yet.
Secondly, Surely you can see what I'm getting at, say you are playing a Wizard, but you can swap and change your character build at anytime, therefore being able to try multiple builds within one play through. Or do you still not understand what I am getting at?
Thirdly, I am not bagging the game, I fucking love diablo and the new one will be amazing, and i will play the shit out of it no matter what. I was merely trying to put some context into what is otherwise done and dusted gripes about D3. Don't get me wrong, by no means am I saying the new system isn't good, just trying to shed some light on why people are worried about the change.
Please don't throw anymore facts and figures at me about the game, cheers.
As frustrating and finite as the D2 stats system was, I did like the fact that your build did take some thought, trying, failing and even research, this gave the game it's longevity. If in D3 it turns out that you can swap between (for instance i'll use d2 builds) a Frost Sorcerer to Fire Sorc just by resetting the stat points/skills anytime you want, people will have played ALL of the builds by the time they play a character through ONCE. As opposed to having to start again with a fresh character for every build.
In terms of numbers. (These are just example numbers)
- Say there are 5 characters
- With for example 3 different proper builds each.
= That is 15 builds right?
With D2 system that would equal 15 unique play throughs.
With D3 system that would equal 5 unique play throughs.
Which looking at it this way, is a shorter life span of the game. But that is not to say it will be much more enjoyable and flexible with add-ons and a heap of dlc content. I suppose I am just trying to simplify these points into a possible scenario.
Or........maybe i've had too much coffee, either way lol
Yay! someone else who hasn't done the math! Guess what bud, D3 has over 1.5 billion builds per class. Take that to the bank and cash it.
Omfg are you serious, I don't mean unique builds as in the amount of different possible combinations, I mean general builds, like 'hammerdin' etc. Of course there are millions of actual 'unique' builds, ffs.
Ah again, you don't understand. With D3, 90% of those builds are actually viable. Thus you can nickname whatever you like. In D2 if you didn't do one of like 4 builds, you couldn't solo hell, thus they were worthless.
Firstly, how can you even know if these 90% of builds are going to be viable? If I'm not mistaken the game is not out yet.
Secondly, Surely you can see what I'm getting at, say you are playing a Wizard, but you can swap and change your character build at anytime, therefore being able to try multiple builds within one play through. Or do you still not understand what I am getting at?
Thirdly, I am not bagging the game, I fucking love diablo and the new one will be amazing, and i will play the shit out of it no matter what. I was merely trying to put some context into what is otherwise done and dusted gripes about D3. Don't get me wrong, by no means am I saying the new system isn't good, just trying to shed some light on why people are worried about the change.
Please don't throw anymore facts and figures at me about the game, cheers.
I see what you are saying, but I think you are hung up on the fact that you think gameplay gets boring if you don't have to re level your toon every time you want to try something new. In fact I think the opposite will happen; Gameplay will be a lot MORE fun because I CAN switch if I really want to, and try something else. Contrary to popular belief most people are going to make a build and stick with it, and try to make it work. The fact that I can switch if I really want to is an awesome step forward in games like this. Having to re level and entire toon because you made a mistake on something was a broken system. And of course if you really have a hard on to level again, there's 10 character slots =D
And my point about how many builds will be viable, you're right I don't have an exact number. What I do have though, is what skills are going to be available in the game. Taking away ~10% of the builds is a rough estimate, because having all defensive skills, or all resource spending skills won't work. BUT, the majority WILL work, even the goofy builds. THAT'S my point.
Oh I agree, no doubt the first few play through's will be epic, and a lot MORE fun as you say due to that freedom to change. How could it not be! And yeh I will dabble in the other builds but will prob stick with one anyway as you say. I was more thinking about the longevity as in, instead of 8-10 years life D2 had, D3 might only have about 3 or 4. But hey we don't really know much yet till it comes out, and who really cares. It is likely to be the best game of our lifetime so far, so yeh these are just thoughts spewing out of my brain really.
You watch these forums go dead silent when it releases, that's including the haters who are gonna hand over the $100 anyway haha
Oh I agree, no doubt the first few play through's will be epic, and a lot MORE fun as you say due to that freedom to change. How could it not be! And yeh I will dabble in the other builds but will prob stick with one anyway as you say. I was more thinking about the longevity as in, instead of 8-10 years life D2 had, D3 might only have about 3 or 4. But hey we don't really know much yet till it comes out, and who really cares. It is likely to be the best game of our lifetime so far, so yeh these are just thoughts spewing out of my brain really.
You watch these forums go dead silent when it releases, that's including the haters who are gonna hand over the $100 anyway haha
Lol I know I love seeing people rage 'I ain't gonna buy it!'..... we know you are. I mean, you took time to get on this forum. You're gonna buy it. =D
A)If you don't like the beta, give it to someone who will actually put it to use.
B)Grow some balls and post on your real account. First post was this topic? Really!?
C)People like you make people like me angry because you got into the beta and piss the privilage away, and I, sit here and wait with envy for my chance to test and/or play the game.
Will never understand people crying about stats, gonna take a guess and say 90% of the people that were "hardcore" D2 players just looked up the perfect stats on a website like 90% of people do on any mmo game that comes out. Yes I know D2 isn't a mmo but same concept.
its only "bad lag" is due to about 100k new people playing and very few servers. It runs fine every other day. One key point of you even getting in now, was for them to see how the game plays when a server is filled way to much. You can expect more servers / less lag in the days to come
as for what you said about talent system, I really like this pic
considering they have almost NONE of the core (fail) features from D2 i cant possibly see how anyone can compare them like that.
things D3 doesnt have from D2:
pot spamming, gambler, skill trees, attribute distribution, runestones, tp scrolls, identify scrolls, limited number of bolts/arrows, fail mercenaries, trade games, boss runs, hostiling (lawl)
things added to D3 that arent in D2:
rune skill system, changing skills on the fly, blacksmith, jeweler, game-wide farming, GAH, RMAH, achievements, better stat effects, health globes, far better graphics (obv) , every class has its own resource system w/ individual attributes to them, 100x more viable builds, all skills wpn dmg based, mercenary skill choices, inferno mode, individual loot, pvp arena's
Yay! someone else who hasn't done the math! Guess what bud, D3 has over 1.5 billion builds per class. Take that to the bank and cash it.
I get your point but these are just arbitrary numbers anyway. It's like saying the rubiks cube is some sort of infinite puzzle because it's got a total number of 43,252,003,274,489,856,000 possible permutations. Yet it can always be solved in 20 moves. I know my analogy isn't the best but my point is even though there's ~1.5 billion builds per class each individual aren't going to use more than a handful.
+1 - Just because there are 2Billion possible builds doesn't mean you really hav that much build diversity. Quite honestly alot of the runes are worthless and will practically NEVER be chosen. Either that or its situational, and will only be used for X boss or PVP.
And those skills that are being chosen... how much of a build difference does X% poison damage versus X% fire damage for one skil (that can be switched within 30 seconds to the other) really make?
I'm a huge fan of diablo 3 ... and i'm going to buy the game regardless of my opinion on the matter... but respecing the way it currently is in game is fucking dumb.
>>>>>>OMG I CAN'T TRY OUT MY NEW SKILL WITHOUT A GOLD COST... WTF.... THIS IS GAME BREAKING... THERES A POTENTIAL SKILL I COULD TRY... WILL USE FOR 5 SECONDS AND NEVER USE AGAIN... AND I CAN'T TRY IT WAHHHHHHH<<<<<<<<
Skill swapping should never have been added to the game. Respecing fine... but skill swapping is fucking noob.
Yay! someone else who hasn't done the math! Guess what bud, D3 has over 1.5 billion builds per class. Take that to the bank and cash it.
I get your point but these are just arbitrary numbers anyway. It's like saying the rubiks cube is some sort of infinite puzzle because it's got a total number of 43,252,003,274,489,856,000 possible permutations. Yet it can always be solved in 20 moves. I know my analogy isn't the best but my point is even though there's ~1.5 billion builds per class each individual aren't going to use more than a handful.
+1 - Just because there are 2Billion possible builds doesn't mean you really hav that much build diversity. Quite honestly alot of the runes are worthless and will practically NEVER be chosen. Either that or its situational, and will only be used for X boss or PVP.
And those skills that are being chosen... how much of a build difference does X% poison damage versus X% fire damage for one skil (that can be switched within 30 seconds to the other) really make?
I'm a huge fan of diablo 3 ... and i'm going to buy the game regardless of my opinion on the matter... but respecing the way it currently is in game is fucking dumb.
>>>>>>OMG I CAN'T TRY OUT MY NEW SKILL WITHOUT A GOLD COST... WTF.... THIS IS GAME BREAKING... THERES A POTENTIAL SKILL I COULD TRY... WILL USE FOR 5 SECONDS AND NEVER USE AGAIN... AND I CAN'T TRY IT WAHHHHHHH<<<<<<<<
Skill swapping should never have been added to the game. Respecing fine... but skill swapping is fucking noob.
I want to troll but I wont. There is one thing though you need to learn about the gaming community. We love to do things off of the norm. The big build diversity allows players to find the worse combination possible and then try to beat the game using it. It allows more room for bring a challege outside of Hardcore and Inferno. It also allows players to make a build that is different from the feel of the class. Like going melee wizard. Or a caster witch doctor. There are always going to be the mainstream builds but there will still be builds not so mainstream but still just as powerful if not more.
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I don't always burn. But when I do, I use hellfire.
6. No single player option, not even an option..................theres a blue explanation but its just not valid. you buy a game you expect to be able to play it end of story regardless of what the status of your network is, part of bringing diablo 3 closer in the mmo fold..
Go play Diablo II if you want single player. And then after that, when you want multiplayer, go play with Diablo II bots and hackers. There is an option to play alone. You create your own game and don't let anyone else in.
1. So we have decided to go wtih the wow stat system? What happened to putting stats into your character i guess that allowed for to much thinking, creativity and thought. Cant have that. gotta get diablo 3 into the mmo fold.
The Diablo II stat system sucked. You spent what you needed to wear predetermined items and then put everything you had into vitality.
No one cares about your opinion, it's been done to death by forum trolls. You're just an annoying minority of the playerbase that Blizzard will shrug away.
Yay! someone else who hasn't done the math! Guess what bud, D3 has over 1.5 billion builds per class. Take that to the bank and cash it.
I get your point but these are just arbitrary numbers anyway. It's like saying the rubiks cube is some sort of infinite puzzle because it's got a total number of 43,252,003,274,489,856,000 possible permutations. Yet it can always be solved in 20 moves. I know my analogy isn't the best but my point is even though there's ~1.5 billion builds per class each individual aren't going to use more than a handful.
+1 - Just because there are 2Billion possible builds doesn't mean you really hav that much build diversity. Quite honestly alot of the runes are worthless and will practically NEVER be chosen. Either that or its situational, and will only be used for X boss or PVP.
And those skills that are being chosen... how much of a build difference does X% poison damage versus X% fire damage for one skil (that can be switched within 30 seconds to the other) really make?
I'm a huge fan of diablo 3 ... and i'm going to buy the game regardless of my opinion on the matter... but respecing the way it currently is in game is fucking dumb.
>>>>>>OMG I CAN'T TRY OUT MY NEW SKILL WITHOUT A GOLD COST... WTF.... THIS IS GAME BREAKING... THERES A POTENTIAL SKILL I COULD TRY... WILL USE FOR 5 SECONDS AND NEVER USE AGAIN... AND I CAN'T TRY IT WAHHHHHHH<<<<<<<<
Skill swapping should never have been added to the game. Respecing fine... but skill swapping is fucking noob.
I want to troll but I wont. There is one thing though you need to learn about the gaming community. We love to do things off of the norm. The big build diversity allows players to find the worse combination possible and then try to beat the game using it. It allows more room for bring a challege outside of Hardcore and Inferno. It also allows players to make a build that is different from the feel of the class. Like going melee wizard. Or a caster witch doctor. There are always going to be the mainstream builds but there will still be builds not so mainstream but still just as powerful if not more.
I don't think you fully understood my post... i never once said not all skills are useful. I said not all runes are useful. There are some straight up worthless runes... also the majority of my post is about the absolute stupidity of skill swapping.
Melee Wizard and caster Witch doctor are by no means non mainstream builds.... Melee wizard is so rampantly talked about its not even funny... and the WD has more dps spells than summons. Just because someone doesn't take gargantuan or zombi dogs doesn't mean they are an oddball build?
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Please address this so that this thread can garner some sort of substance.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
In terms of numbers. (These are just example numbers)
- Say there are 5 characters
- With for example 3 different proper builds each.
= That is 15 builds right?
With D2 system that would equal 15 unique play throughs.
With D3 system that would equal 5 unique play throughs.
Which looking at it this way, is a shorter life span of the game. But that is not to say it will be much more enjoyable and flexible with add-ons and a heap of dlc content. I suppose I am just trying to simplify these points into a possible scenario.
Or........maybe i've had too much coffee, either way lol
Yay! someone else who hasn't done the math! Guess what bud, D3 has over 1.5 billion builds per class. Take that to the bank and cash it.
i agree with you completely, i just think people are so used to tree systems now they done realize its technically the same thing...
Omfg are you serious, I don't mean unique builds as in the amount of different possible combinations, I mean general builds, like 'hammerdin' etc. Of course there are millions of actual 'unique' builds, ffs.
Ah again, you don't understand. With D3, 90% of those builds are actually viable. Thus you can nickname whatever you like. In D2 if you didn't do one of like 4 builds, you couldn't solo hell, thus they were worthless.
Edit: To make it simpler
Amount of viable builds in D2 (meaning you can solo all of hell, in a timely manner w/o runewords bought off line lol) = like what, ~4 or 5?
Amount of viable builds in D3 = ~ 1 billion.
Firstly, how can you even know if these 90% of builds are going to be viable? If I'm not mistaken the game is not out yet.
Secondly, Surely you can see what I'm getting at, say you are playing a Wizard, but you can swap and change your character build at anytime, therefore being able to try multiple builds within one play through. Or do you still not understand what I am getting at?
Thirdly, I am not bagging the game, I fucking love diablo and the new one will be amazing, and i will play the shit out of it no matter what. I was merely trying to put some context into what is otherwise done and dusted gripes about D3. Don't get me wrong, by no means am I saying the new system isn't good, just trying to shed some light on why people are worried about the change.
Please don't throw anymore facts and figures at me about the game, cheers.
I see what you are saying, but I think you are hung up on the fact that you think gameplay gets boring if you don't have to re level your toon every time you want to try something new. In fact I think the opposite will happen; Gameplay will be a lot MORE fun because I CAN switch if I really want to, and try something else. Contrary to popular belief most people are going to make a build and stick with it, and try to make it work. The fact that I can switch if I really want to is an awesome step forward in games like this. Having to re level and entire toon because you made a mistake on something was a broken system. And of course if you really have a hard on to level again, there's 10 character slots =D
And my point about how many builds will be viable, you're right I don't have an exact number. What I do have though, is what skills are going to be available in the game. Taking away ~10% of the builds is a rough estimate, because having all defensive skills, or all resource spending skills won't work. BUT, the majority WILL work, even the goofy builds. THAT'S my point.
Oh I agree, no doubt the first few play through's will be epic, and a lot MORE fun as you say due to that freedom to change. How could it not be! And yeh I will dabble in the other builds but will prob stick with one anyway as you say. I was more thinking about the longevity as in, instead of 8-10 years life D2 had, D3 might only have about 3 or 4. But hey we don't really know much yet till it comes out, and who really cares. It is likely to be the best game of our lifetime so far, so yeh these are just thoughts spewing out of my brain really.
You watch these forums go dead silent when it releases, that's including the haters who are gonna hand over the $100 anyway haha
Lol I know I love seeing people rage 'I ain't gonna buy it!'..... we know you are. I mean, you took time to get on this forum. You're gonna buy it. =D
B)Grow some balls and post on your real account. First post was this topic? Really!?
C)People like you make people like me angry because you got into the beta and piss the privilage away, and I, sit here and wait with envy for my chance to test and/or play the game.
this^
everything hes saying is old news nonesense and has already been destroyed by blue posts and LOGIC (doh!).
just in case he's serious ill copy a post i made previously about the jump from D2 to D3:
+1 - Just because there are 2Billion possible builds doesn't mean you really hav that much build diversity. Quite honestly alot of the runes are worthless and will practically NEVER be chosen. Either that or its situational, and will only be used for X boss or PVP.
And those skills that are being chosen... how much of a build difference does X% poison damage versus X% fire damage for one skil (that can be switched within 30 seconds to the other) really make?
I'm a huge fan of diablo 3 ... and i'm going to buy the game regardless of my opinion on the matter... but respecing the way it currently is in game is fucking dumb.
>>>>>>OMG I CAN'T TRY OUT MY NEW SKILL WITHOUT A GOLD COST... WTF.... THIS IS GAME BREAKING... THERES A POTENTIAL SKILL I COULD TRY... WILL USE FOR 5 SECONDS AND NEVER USE AGAIN... AND I CAN'T TRY IT WAHHHHHHH<<<<<<<<
Skill swapping should never have been added to the game. Respecing fine... but skill swapping is fucking noob.
Go play Diablo II if you want single player. And then after that, when you want multiplayer, go play with Diablo II bots and hackers. There is an option to play alone. You create your own game and don't let anyone else in.
The Diablo II stat system sucked. You spent what you needed to wear predetermined items and then put everything you had into vitality.
No one cares about your opinion, it's been done to death by forum trolls. You're just an annoying minority of the playerbase that Blizzard will shrug away.
I don't think you fully understood my post... i never once said not all skills are useful. I said not all runes are useful. There are some straight up worthless runes... also the majority of my post is about the absolute stupidity of skill swapping.
Melee Wizard and caster Witch doctor are by no means non mainstream builds.... Melee wizard is so rampantly talked about its not even funny... and the WD has more dps spells than summons. Just because someone doesn't take gargantuan or zombi dogs doesn't mean they are an oddball build?