why can't I make that claim? Jay him self said they were noticing a trend where people would take points out of a skill to put it it in "better" one. The arcane missle vs arcane orb comment. taking away skills hasn't changed the fact that arcane orb is better than arcane missle other wise why would people have wanted to dump all the points into it. And the new system where you are good at everything promotes you figuring out the sucky skills way to quickly
Because that's how player psychology works. Who said that Arcane Orb was better? Maybe it's stronger, and if I'm not mistaken, I think it may do splash or something along those lines. But it is, by merit of being higher on the tree, more costly. But that doesn't matter in the head of a player. All that matters is "it's stronger, so it deserves the most points." Is that not a fair statement? I think that's what you were getting at too. But what I think Jay Wilson and his crew are getting at is that while it was indeed possible to maximize the capabilities of a move, that meant that you had committed to not using other moves. That meant that while the system "worked" and one might beat the game on all difficulties with that one beefy skill... that's not what the design team wanted. The design team wanted to make a game where you had to creatively use multiple skills together. A tree system limits the number of builds to approximately the number of skills there are available, including rune changes. That's not customization. That's "I'm a Whirlwind Barbarian, but look, I'm totally using my other skills... level 1 leap, level 1 bash, level 1 shout... etc."
In short, then, yes. Arcane Orb is better than Magic Missile. I bet we all agree. I find that likely. What skill will you use when you can't afford Arcane Orb, then? Or will you stop and wait for your energy to regenerate so you can just Orb again? That's the idea. Big moves kill big enemies or big groups. Little moves kill little enemies or little groups. You waste your resources and cooldowns, and you'll get surrounded and taken down fast, and no potions or town portals to save your hide this time.
Yea what you are saying makes tons of sense. And the only argument I can make to that and I made it earlier is that yes you get more options of what skills you can use but it gives you all of them and "bad" skills such as arcane missle will not feel as good or powerful to other skills of the same tier because you have them all and you can very quickly figure out which is best that is player psychology too. When you have everything and know what it does its cool but things out everything you have you immediately realize kinda suck and that gives you no incentive to use them. where as the skill point system gives you the illusion that yes this skill is awesome and it keeps getting better(might be the worst skill in game) and since you aren't good at everything you don't know that it actually sucks and that feels better to a player.
What say you on this?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Give a man a skill tree, and he will become a Fire Sorc. Give a man 6 skills to choose from, pulling from all three trees, and he becomes a Fire Sorc that likes to shoot lightning to manage the bigger crowds."
Yea what you are saying makes tons of sense. And the only argument I can make to that and I made it earlier is that yes you get more options of what skills you can use but it gives you all of them and "bad" skills such as arcane missle will not feel as good or powerful to other skills of the same tier because you have them all and you can very quickly figure out which is best that is player psychology too. When you have everything and know what it does its cool but things out everything you have you immediately realize kinda suck and that gives you no incentive to use them. where as the skill point system gives you the illusion that yes this skill is awesome and it keeps getting better(might be the worst skill in game) and since you aren't good at everything you don't know that it actually sucks and that feels better to a player.
What say you on this?
With the new iteration of all skills being available and leveling with a player's level, gear, and rune choices they're striving to have no "bad" skills. What exactly makes a skill bad? That it does less damage? That it has little to no utility? That it has a cooldown? That it costs more/less resources? TheSkaBoss points this out very clearly and concisely a few posts up, that choices will have to be made on what skills a player utilizes to compliment each other and the playstyle or they're going to get their asses handed to them.
That is assuming that all skill are applicable equally in all situations. We don't yet know enough to say that some other skill is better than Magic Missile (to continue that hypothetical) for doing damage to say a highly mobile boss. Arcane Orb might be too slow, Disintegrate might not build up well (if it still does, I think it did at some point), Electrocute might have too short a range and so on.
Ideally most if not all skills will have different circumstances and play styles under which they shine. *If* we end in a situation where you'll always just gravitate towards some specific skills then Blizzard will have failed balancing them and customization will falter.
Yea I think your right on that we don't know enough but just going off of the balance done in everygame we have seen from in the past. I think we can atleast raise an alarm of concern on these matters and there implications. Yet again though I'll put my faith in Blizzard that the rune attunment system or whatever they decide they were talking about will add back that level of mystery and cutomization that causes the issue of learning what the quote un-quote bad skills are too quickly.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Give a man a skill tree, and he will become a Fire Sorc. Give a man 6 skills to choose from, pulling from all three trees, and he becomes a Fire Sorc that likes to shoot lightning to manage the bigger crowds."
Yea what you are saying makes tons of sense. And the only argument I can make to that and I made it earlier is that yes you get more options of what skills you can use but it gives you all of them and "bad" skills such as arcane missle will not feel as good or powerful to other skills of the same tier because you have them all and you can very quickly figure out which is best that is player psychology too. When you have everything and know what it does its cool but things out everything you have you immediately realize kinda suck and that gives you no incentive to use them. where as the skill point system gives you the illusion that yes this skill is awesome and it keeps getting better(might be the worst skill in game) and since you aren't good at everything you don't know that it actually sucks and that feels better to a player.
What say you on this?
With the new iteration of all skills being available and leveling with a player's level, gear, and rune choices they're striving to have no "bad" skills. What exactly makes a skill bad? That it does less damage? That it has little to no utility? That it has a cooldown? That it costs more/less resources? TheSkaBoss points this out very clearly and concisely a few posts up, that choices will have to be made on what skills a player utilizes to compliment each other and the playstyle or they're going to get their asses handed to them.
I see what your saying and I'm laying alot of hope in runes, But the utilize comment you made takes away from the RPG elements focus your suppose to be roleing a character not roleing a character that has the same powers as everyone else and just switches based on circumstance that is truly where the RPG comes from. I don't really know the last RPG game action or not that was thouroughly ejoyable where I could just just be every Role of character all willy nilly like.
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"Give a man a skill tree, and he will become a Fire Sorc. Give a man 6 skills to choose from, pulling from all three trees, and he becomes a Fire Sorc that likes to shoot lightning to manage the bigger crowds."
And the Diablo farming build of the week is.... This is exactly what ArenaNet did with Guild Wars except you have runes to enhance how the skill works. Get ready for a Diablo wiki with tons of player builds on it.
your suppose to be roleing a character not roleing a character that has the same powers as everyone else and just switches based on circumstance
How is that any different than Diablo II?
Because there was consequence to being a role. you didn't just switch. If you wanted to fill another role then you played another char an re-rolled and you didn't know what the optimal role skills were unless you looked online. Why didn't you know what the optimal roles were because you didnt have everyskill at the same level and there was mystery there about what the actual skills did. Do you play an RPG just just to look online for the optimal role?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Give a man a skill tree, and he will become a Fire Sorc. Give a man 6 skills to choose from, pulling from all three trees, and he becomes a Fire Sorc that likes to shoot lightning to manage the bigger crowds."
And the Diablo farming build of the week is.... This is exactly what ArenaNet did with Guild Wars except you have runes to enhance how the skill works. Get ready for a Diablo wiki with tons of player builds on it.
Oh dear lord. Farming, popular builds...
This is such new and dangerous territory for the Diablo world. I'm not sure we're gunna make it guys.
Yea what you are saying makes tons of sense. And the only argument I can make to that and I made it earlier is that yes you get more options of what skills you can use but it gives you all of them and "bad" skills such as arcane missle will not feel as good or powerful to other skills of the same tier because you have them all and you can very quickly figure out which is best that is player psychology too. When you have everything and know what it does its cool but things out everything you have you immediately realize kinda suck and that gives you no incentive to use them. where as the skill point system gives you the illusion that yes this skill is awesome and it keeps getting better(might be the worst skill in game) and since you aren't good at everything you don't know that it actually sucks and that feels better to a player.
What say you on this?
I say that you are still assuming that Magic Missile sucks, when you don't know that. Let me ask you this, if Magic Missile is low enough cost that you can use it as your left click attack (low enough cost and low enough cooldown that it has little to no effect on your energy drain, but is better than your regular attack) will you do it? At least for a time, I mean. I'm sure many will bail on low-level skills, but some might like having something that can serve as their basic attack and be worth it.
Even if we're competing Magic Missile against the other first tier skills the Wizard has, we're still finding a first tier skill that works with our build. And I have my doubts that people will find one first level skill to be better than the others, and I'll use Diablo II very quickly to describe my point. At the low levels of play, did it really matter whether you used Fire Bolt or Ice Bolt? You went with the one that suited you depending on if you were planning on exploiting the ice or fire tree. Similarly, people will find in this game that the low-level skills they implement into their high-level builds will not necessarily be the "best" but the one they like or the one they think works best with the other skills they use as well. And that becomes the "best" by definition, because in that player's head, it fit.
You can bet that if someone decides to use only high cost skills, they're going to need a skill to help them regenerate their resource more quickly... well, what's the difference? And who can say which route is better? Both players are using 5 skills that take up resource and devoting 1 skill to the attempt to regain some resource. Maybe one does that job better, but one has been attacking non-stop while the other is going to come back with bigger skills sooner. It's the player that will decide the winner, not the use or disuse of lower-level skills. Critical decisions made with the six tools available will determine a build's success, not the tools themselves.
Yea what you are saying makes tons of sense. And the only argument I can make to that and I made it earlier is that yes you get more options of what skills you can use but it gives you all of them and "bad" skills such as arcane missle will not feel as good or powerful to other skills of the same tier because you have them all and you can very quickly figure out which is best that is player psychology too. When you have everything and know what it does its cool but things out everything you have you immediately realize kinda suck and that gives you no incentive to use them. where as the skill point system gives you the illusion that yes this skill is awesome and it keeps getting better(might be the worst skill in game) and since you aren't good at everything you don't know that it actually sucks and that feels better to a player.
What say you on this?
I say that you are still assuming that Magic Missile sucks, when you don't know that. Let me ask you this, if Magic Missile is low enough cost that you can use it as your left click attack (low enough cost and low enough cooldown that it has little to no effect on your energy drain, but is better than your regular attack) will you do it? At least for a time, I mean. I'm sure many will bail on low-level skills, but some might like having something that can serve as their basic attack and be worth it.
Even if we're competing Magic Missile against the other first tier skills the Wizard has, we're still finding a first tier skill that works with our build. And I have my doubts that people will find one first level skill to be better than the others, and I'll use Diablo II very quickly to describe my point. At the low levels of play, did it really matter whether you used Fire Bolt or Ice Bolt? You went with the one that suited you depending on if you were planning on exploiting the ice or fire tree. Similarly, people will find in this game that the low-level skills they implement into their high-level builds will not necessarily be the "best" but the one they like or the one they think works best with the other skills they use as well. And that becomes the "best" by definition, because in that player's head, it fit.
You can bet that if someone decides to use only high cost skills, they're going to need a skill to help them regenerate their resource more quickly... well, what's the difference? And who can say which route is better? Both players are using 5 skills that take up resource and devoting 1 skill to the attempt to regain some resource. Maybe one does that job better, but one has been attacking non-stop while the other is going to come back with bigger skills sooner. It's the player that will decide the winner, not the use or disuse of lower-level skills. Critical decisions made with the six tools available will determine a build's success, not the tools themselves.
So what you are saying is that the skills are so well balanced that at level 7 I won't be able to tell the "best" "better" "worst" t1 skill by simply looking at the skills that are all available to me? And maybe you can rephrase what your talking about with the resource system because them taking skills out didn't change how the resource system worked? It worked the same in the skill point system
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Give a man a skill tree, and he will become a Fire Sorc. Give a man 6 skills to choose from, pulling from all three trees, and he becomes a Fire Sorc that likes to shoot lightning to manage the bigger crowds."
So what you are saying is that the skills are so well balanced that at level 7 I won't be able to tell the "best" "better" "worst" t1 skill by simply looking at the skills that are all available to me? And maybe you can rephrase what your talking about with the resource system because them taking skills out didn't change how the resource system worked? It worked the same in the skill point system
You have to define "best" if you want to look at three moves and decide on the "best." If one does more damage, but one does cold and thus slowing, you're going to have a hard time convincing me you know what's best, and that's only two factors to look at. And yeah, I'd like to believe that they've balanced it well enough that you're not shooting yourself in the foot by picking one over the other, so long as you're picking it because you like the way it feels to play it.
As far as the resource system thing goes, I know it didn't change with the skill-point system change. I was just trying to indicate that the new system will sway people toward utilizing low-level skills for benefits such as that, where skill-dumping that happened in the old system would have made the benefits of low-level skills (low cooldowns and low resource costs) invisible simply because they were low-level skills, and who cares about their benefits when you're dumping all your points into some higher skill anyway? Hope that clarifies my statements for you.
So what you're saying is that using diffirent skills is not a choice, but clicking them in a skillbook is?
No what I'm saying is if you have every skill at your disposal it de-incentives* you from choosing other skills that quickly become apparent as not as good. Why? again because you get to see what every single skill does at every level of power. In the other system you don't know fully how good bad awesome the other skills are because your not putting points into them. Unless all you want to do is look online and find out. And again the attunement system could rectify this becasue it brings back the level of mystery necessary to do so.
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"Give a man a skill tree, and he will become a Fire Sorc. Give a man 6 skills to choose from, pulling from all three trees, and he becomes a Fire Sorc that likes to shoot lightning to manage the bigger crowds."
So what you're saying is that using diffirent skills is not a choice, but clicking them in a skillbook is?
No what I'm saying is if you have every skill at your disposal it de-incentives* you from choosing other skills that quickly become apparent as not as good. Why? again because you get to see what every single skill does at every level of power. In the other system you don't know fully how good bad awesome the other skills are because your not putting points into them. Unless all you want to do is look online and find out. And again the attunement system could rectify this becasue it brings back the level of mystery necessary to do so.
What is the asterisk doing there, I don't even.
But seriously, you aren't going to know how good, bad, or awsome every skill is at face value either or what synergies it might have in combination with other skills. In other systems (read as: skillpoints) you simply have the (and i'm using your word here) illusion of choice. What you're actually choosing is doing nothing except make a whole bunch of choices at once (ie. Im skilling up fireball, I therefor won't use inferno on my sorc).
Break it down into a series of choices and see what comes up:
-Skillpoint way: I pick a skill, invest in it, and use it to exclusivity. I know of other skills, but have no way of testing them on an even keel with the skill I already invested in. My choices are thus limited and i've essentially made my choice for every enemy i'm attacking until I get a new skill up to par.
-Non-SP way: I pick a skill that is avalible and I use it. I acquire new skills and try them. Situationally, i'll have to decide which skill is the best tool for the job. My choices are many and I can make them as often as is called for. Content is no longer a test of my single skill, but a test of my skill-set.
I can look online and find things out either way, that has no bearing on the argument at hand. What does matter, is that for my intents and purposes, customization is not-only still very much alive and well, but I can (and must, difficulty permitting) utilize and customize my skillset to complete new tasks.
When I look back on my D2 career and try to think of things that made the game fun and compelling. I certainly don't remember "man, that fire-immune monster was so much fun on my hydra-sorc. Using a weak-arse frost spell to kill it was simply great."
Look a game which didn't have any, figured...probably a good idea to get these since it wasn't as fun without them.
Fantastic. Yet that has nothing to do with the conversation. It's a completely different game, built for a completely different fan base, play style & community, in a completely different genre and has it's own development goals and agendas. What are you trying to suggest?
So what your saying is you don't want to role a character in an action RPG game? Choice is suppose to have consequence so yeah you'd rather be like o crap something I can't defeat easily I know back to town switch. At least that's how it sounds in your fire sorc story. Every one came across moments like that you didn't quit playing you continued on and in the next area you flames were destroying everything and the game was still fun. And the illusion you dismiss so lightly is what makes skills feel powerful even if they are not and that is crucial.
Now in terms of internet you misunderstood completely. I'm saying in the skill system there was only 2 ways to know how awesome skills were. You either put points in them and found out or you looked it up online. Now they are all just given to you. Im not a big fan of using walkthroughs or looking online but now I can just see it its right there
You are right your not going to know at face value about the skills and synergies but you'll know it 30 seconds later(exaggeration) after you swapped em out real quick to try.
O the asterik thing was because I know that word can't be correct.
Maybe the solution lay somewhere between our 2 opinions.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Give a man a skill tree, and he will become a Fire Sorc. Give a man 6 skills to choose from, pulling from all three trees, and he becomes a Fire Sorc that likes to shoot lightning to manage the bigger crowds."
So what your saying is you don't want to role a character in an action RPG game? Choice is suppose to have consequence so yeah you'd rather be like o crap something I can't defeat easily I know back to town switch. At least that's how it sounds in your fire sorc story. Every one came across moments like that you didn't quit playing you continued on and in the next area you flames were destroying everything and the game was still fun. And the illusion you dismiss so lightly is what makes skills feel powerful even if they are not and that is crucial.
Now in terms of internet you misunderstood completely. I'm saying in the skill system there was only 2 ways to know how awesome skills were. You either put points in them and found out or you looked it up online. Now they are all just given to you. Im not a big fan of using walkthroughs or looking online but now I can just see it its right there
You are right your not going to know at face value about the skills and synergies but you'll know it 30 seconds later(exaggeration) after you swapped em out real quick to try.
O the asterik thing was because I know that word can't be correct.
Maybe the solution lay somewhere between our 2 opinions.
I think the implication is, the old system required pre-meditated choice (read the guide: make the character to fit it) and the new system requires de-facto choices (read the walk-through: use the appropriate skills). As I said, seeking a second opinion on what to do is a universal. We can't simply isolate that as a "cheat," prone only to one scenario.
Furthermore, how awsome something is: that's variable. Unless you comb over every monster and pre-select your optimal choices ahead of time, you have a lot of customization in terms of how you deal with X as opposed to Y with your skills. You no longer have to use fireball and god-help you if your monster doesn't take damage from it. You peruse the skill choices you've got and see what works. Trial and error if you didn't take the "~what do," rout and simply google it.
The moral of the story is: customization is not being harmed in the making of this new system. There are still a multitude of optimal, suboptimal, and downright stupid ways to go about slaying X and Y. Plenty of opportunity to play as though you were a firesorc, frostsorc, or any other vanilla-icecream variant you like. And plenty more opportunity to go all neopolitan on their asses and use whatever skill combos you want.
So what your saying is you don't want to role a character in an action RPG game? Choice is suppose to have consequence so yeah you'd rather be like o crap something I can't defeat easily I know back to town switch. At least that's how it sounds in your fire sorc story. Every one came across moments like that you didn't quit playing you continued on and in the next area you flames were destroying everything and the game was still fun. And the illusion you dismiss so lightly is what makes skills feel powerful even if they are not and that is crucial.
Now in terms of internet you misunderstood completely. I'm saying in the skill system there was only 2 ways to know how awesome skills were. You either put points in them and found out or you looked it up online. Now they are all just given to you. Im not a big fan of using walkthroughs or looking online but now I can just see it its right there
You are right your not going to know at face value about the skills and synergies but you'll know it 30 seconds later(exaggeration) after you swapped em out real quick to try.
O the asterik thing was because I know that word can't be correct.
Maybe the solution lay somewhere between our 2 opinions.
Your first sentence is inane. All the choices one will make in Diablo 3 will have consequences, many of which have already been covered in this thread and more that we'll discover when we play. If one comes across immunities in the harder difficulties we'll have the option of switching skills to fit the demand of the situation instead of having to resort to a skill that is lacking in every aspect (i.e. the low level frost spell). Having to do that is no fun and very annoying, frustrating, and takes away from gameplay.
Do you like being able to see it all right there? I can't tell, context is lost to me.
The word you're looking for is disincentive. Close!
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Yea what you are saying makes tons of sense. And the only argument I can make to that and I made it earlier is that yes you get more options of what skills you can use but it gives you all of them and "bad" skills such as arcane missle will not feel as good or powerful to other skills of the same tier because you have them all and you can very quickly figure out which is best that is player psychology too. When you have everything and know what it does its cool but things out everything you have you immediately realize kinda suck and that gives you no incentive to use them. where as the skill point system gives you the illusion that yes this skill is awesome and it keeps getting better(might be the worst skill in game) and since you aren't good at everything you don't know that it actually sucks and that feels better to a player.
What say you on this?
TheSkaBoss
With the new iteration of all skills being available and leveling with a player's level, gear, and rune choices they're striving to have no "bad" skills. What exactly makes a skill bad? That it does less damage? That it has little to no utility? That it has a cooldown? That it costs more/less resources? TheSkaBoss points this out very clearly and concisely a few posts up, that choices will have to be made on what skills a player utilizes to compliment each other and the playstyle or they're going to get their asses handed to them.
Yea I think your right on that we don't know enough but just going off of the balance done in everygame we have seen from in the past. I think we can atleast raise an alarm of concern on these matters and there implications. Yet again though I'll put my faith in Blizzard that the rune attunment system or whatever they decide they were talking about will add back that level of mystery and cutomization that causes the issue of learning what the quote un-quote bad skills are too quickly.
TheSkaBoss
TheSkaBoss
How is that any different than Diablo II?
TheSkaBoss
Oh dear lord. Farming, popular builds...
This is such new and dangerous territory for the Diablo world. I'm not sure we're gunna make it guys.
I say that you are still assuming that Magic Missile sucks, when you don't know that. Let me ask you this, if Magic Missile is low enough cost that you can use it as your left click attack (low enough cost and low enough cooldown that it has little to no effect on your energy drain, but is better than your regular attack) will you do it? At least for a time, I mean. I'm sure many will bail on low-level skills, but some might like having something that can serve as their basic attack and be worth it.
Even if we're competing Magic Missile against the other first tier skills the Wizard has, we're still finding a first tier skill that works with our build. And I have my doubts that people will find one first level skill to be better than the others, and I'll use Diablo II very quickly to describe my point. At the low levels of play, did it really matter whether you used Fire Bolt or Ice Bolt? You went with the one that suited you depending on if you were planning on exploiting the ice or fire tree. Similarly, people will find in this game that the low-level skills they implement into their high-level builds will not necessarily be the "best" but the one they like or the one they think works best with the other skills they use as well. And that becomes the "best" by definition, because in that player's head, it fit.
You can bet that if someone decides to use only high cost skills, they're going to need a skill to help them regenerate their resource more quickly... well, what's the difference? And who can say which route is better? Both players are using 5 skills that take up resource and devoting 1 skill to the attempt to regain some resource. Maybe one does that job better, but one has been attacking non-stop while the other is going to come back with bigger skills sooner. It's the player that will decide the winner, not the use or disuse of lower-level skills. Critical decisions made with the six tools available will determine a build's success, not the tools themselves.
So what you are saying is that the skills are so well balanced that at level 7 I won't be able to tell the "best" "better" "worst" t1 skill by simply looking at the skills that are all available to me? And maybe you can rephrase what your talking about with the resource system because them taking skills out didn't change how the resource system worked? It worked the same in the skill point system
TheSkaBoss
You have to define "best" if you want to look at three moves and decide on the "best." If one does more damage, but one does cold and thus slowing, you're going to have a hard time convincing me you know what's best, and that's only two factors to look at. And yeah, I'd like to believe that they've balanced it well enough that you're not shooting yourself in the foot by picking one over the other, so long as you're picking it because you like the way it feels to play it.
As far as the resource system thing goes, I know it didn't change with the skill-point system change. I was just trying to indicate that the new system will sway people toward utilizing low-level skills for benefits such as that, where skill-dumping that happened in the old system would have made the benefits of low-level skills (low cooldowns and low resource costs) invisible simply because they were low-level skills, and who cares about their benefits when you're dumping all your points into some higher skill anyway? Hope that clarifies my statements for you.
No what I'm saying is if you have every skill at your disposal it de-incentives* you from choosing other skills that quickly become apparent as not as good. Why? again because you get to see what every single skill does at every level of power. In the other system you don't know fully how good bad awesome the other skills are because your not putting points into them. Unless all you want to do is look online and find out. And again the attunement system could rectify this becasue it brings back the level of mystery necessary to do so.
TheSkaBoss
What is the asterisk doing there, I don't even.
But seriously, you aren't going to know how good, bad, or awsome every skill is at face value either or what synergies it might have in combination with other skills. In other systems (read as: skillpoints) you simply have the (and i'm using your word here) illusion of choice. What you're actually choosing is doing nothing except make a whole bunch of choices at once (ie. Im skilling up fireball, I therefor won't use inferno on my sorc).
Break it down into a series of choices and see what comes up:
-Skillpoint way: I pick a skill, invest in it, and use it to exclusivity. I know of other skills, but have no way of testing them on an even keel with the skill I already invested in. My choices are thus limited and i've essentially made my choice for every enemy i'm attacking until I get a new skill up to par.
-Non-SP way: I pick a skill that is avalible and I use it. I acquire new skills and try them. Situationally, i'll have to decide which skill is the best tool for the job. My choices are many and I can make them as often as is called for. Content is no longer a test of my single skill, but a test of my skill-set.
I can look online and find things out either way, that has no bearing on the argument at hand. What does matter, is that for my intents and purposes, customization is not-only still very much alive and well, but I can (and must, difficulty permitting) utilize and customize my skillset to complete new tasks.
When I look back on my D2 career and try to think of things that made the game fun and compelling. I certainly don't remember "man, that fire-immune monster was so much fun on my hydra-sorc. Using a weak-arse frost spell to kill it was simply great."
THEY HAVE TALENT TREES.
Look a game which didn't have any, figured...probably a good idea to get these since it wasn't as fun without them.
Fantastic. Yet that has nothing to do with the conversation. It's a completely different game, built for a completely different fan base, play style & community, in a completely different genre and has it's own development goals and agendas. What are you trying to suggest?
Edit: Already taken care of, I'm slow.
Now in terms of internet you misunderstood completely. I'm saying in the skill system there was only 2 ways to know how awesome skills were. You either put points in them and found out or you looked it up online. Now they are all just given to you. Im not a big fan of using walkthroughs or looking online but now I can just see it its right there
You are right your not going to know at face value about the skills and synergies but you'll know it 30 seconds later(exaggeration) after you swapped em out real quick to try.
O the asterik thing was because I know that word can't be correct.
Maybe the solution lay somewhere between our 2 opinions.
TheSkaBoss
I think the implication is, the old system required pre-meditated choice (read the guide: make the character to fit it) and the new system requires de-facto choices (read the walk-through: use the appropriate skills). As I said, seeking a second opinion on what to do is a universal. We can't simply isolate that as a "cheat," prone only to one scenario.
Furthermore, how awsome something is: that's variable. Unless you comb over every monster and pre-select your optimal choices ahead of time, you have a lot of customization in terms of how you deal with X as opposed to Y with your skills. You no longer have to use fireball and god-help you if your monster doesn't take damage from it. You peruse the skill choices you've got and see what works. Trial and error if you didn't take the "~what do," rout and simply google it.
The moral of the story is: customization is not being harmed in the making of this new system. There are still a multitude of optimal, suboptimal, and downright stupid ways to go about slaying X and Y. Plenty of opportunity to play as though you were a firesorc, frostsorc, or any other vanilla-icecream variant you like. And plenty more opportunity to go all neopolitan on their asses and use whatever skill combos you want.
Your first sentence is inane. All the choices one will make in Diablo 3 will have consequences, many of which have already been covered in this thread and more that we'll discover when we play. If one comes across immunities in the harder difficulties we'll have the option of switching skills to fit the demand of the situation instead of having to resort to a skill that is lacking in every aspect (i.e. the low level frost spell). Having to do that is no fun and very annoying, frustrating, and takes away from gameplay.
Do you like being able to see it all right there? I can't tell, context is lost to me.
The word you're looking for is disincentive. Close!