Starting a new video series today where I go beneath the surface of the systems being used in Diablo 3 and try to answer questions people have/will have about the less obvious mechanics in the game.
My goal with each video will be to get to questions that will actually allow for us to make better decisions when we play the game. You can see an example of a very "actionable" question in the third question of this episode.
The three questions I'll be answering today are:
1. How much does dual wielding increase attack speed?
2. Is your attack speed when dual wielding an average of each (weapon's) speed or independent?
3. Is it always better to be using two weapons?
Hope you guys enjoy and learn something from this.
I love making this style of video because I learn a lot myself, please ask questions you have and if the answer is something I think people want to know I'll include it in one of the videos!
=]
Additionally, because it is modifying both weapon speeds, and because you are attacking with each weapon separately, the final overall speed can be simply the average attack speed.
As for the dps, it's the same thing in that you are averaging the damage because you are alternating between the two. If you have 2 weapons of exactly equal dps and stats, you can expect that 15% increase in dps. Any difference between them and you get less. With a significant difference in dps, you lose dps due to the wasted time swinging the other weapon.
As an example:
Assuming two 1.0 speed weapons with 10-10 range, you will expect to see 1.15 as the speed for both weapons and your dps should go from 10 to 11.5 as a result.
When you drop to one weapon with 7-8 range and same speed, you get 10+8 = average of 9 * 1.15 = 10.35 dps.
The breakpoint for when dual wielding will result in a net benefit is when the average dps of your weapons will be at least more than [better weapon dps] / 1.3. With the example value of 10, it's approximately 7.7 dps; anything higher will be a net increase, anything less is a net decrease.
Again, this assumes only raw dps, and doesn't take into account other effects.
Y'know I"m curious and I cant watch the video from here at work..
I heard there was a damage increase to 2 handed weapons (about 15%) to compensate for dual wielding getting an attack speed buff so they stay comparable. Any truth to this?
Additionally, because it is modifying both weapon speeds, and because you are attacking with each weapon separately, the final overall speed can be simply the average attack speed.
As for the dps, it's the same thing in that you are averaging the damage because you are alternating between the two. If you have 2 weapons of exactly equal dps and stats, you can expect that 15% increase in dps. Any difference between them and you get less. With a significant difference in dps, you lose dps due to the wasted time swinging the other weapon.
As an example:
Assuming two 1.0 speed weapons with 10-10 range, you will expect to see 1.15 as the speed for both weapons and your dps should go from 10 to 11.5 as a result.
When you drop to one weapon with 7-8 range and same speed, you get 10+8 = average of 9 * 1.15 = 10.35 dps.
The breakpoint for when dual wielding will result in a net benefit is when the average dps of your weapons will be at least more than [better weapon dps] / 1.3. With the example value of 10, it's approximately 7.7 dps; anything higher will be a net increase, anything less is a net decrease.
Again, this assumes only raw dps, and doesn't take into account other effects.
Just talking about the IAS bonus for now.. so it truncates the decimals rather than rounds?
I mean if I have a 1.38 attack speed weapon then it only goes up to 1.58 even though 1.38*1.15 = 1.5875
Sorry I didn't say it earlier, but thanks for this information and nice work on the video. I had seen the calculations before, but I think some people will understand it a bit better in video form.
If at any point anyone has information on dual wielding vs 2handed I'd love to see that too. I think that's one area that's still abit ambiguous.
Alright after testing I've verified that you are correct and it's 15%.
I made the mistake of assuming they would round rather than truncate.
Really my fault and I do appreciate you calling me on it asap.
As for the rest of your post, I'd call the majority of it extensions rather than corrections.
I'll just make my own comments on what you wrote because I'm interested in keeping the conversation going.
Additionally, because it is modifying both weapon speeds, and because you are attacking with each weapon separately, the final overall speed can be simply the average attack speed.
The final overall speed can be an average, but it isn't. In the game it shows each weapon speed based on what will swing next.
Hope I understood you properly.
The breakpoint for when dual wielding will result in a net benefit is when the average dps of your weapons will be at least more than [better weapon dps] / 1.3. With the example value of 10, it's approximately 7.7 dps; anything higher will be a net increase, anything less is a net decrease.
If you're going to go so far as to find these numbers, and I applaud you for doing so, you need to also take it a step further and mention that higher attack speed and lower DPS might be more valuable if you are facing a large number of weak units as opposed to a few strong units (like in PvP). This is of course due to the wasted damage you have when you kill a unit. Anyone who's played an RPG and scoffed at getting an enemy down to <1% life and having to give it another full hit should be able to relate to this.
You've missed the point about averaging the speeds. Regardless of how it displays and what is being swung, you are in fact performing the average as your actual attacks per second, which is an important step for determining #3. It also appears my guesswork was wroong on #3, and it's in fact approximately [higher dps] / 1.35, where the 1.35 is approximated.
Calculated using the following. Given a higher weapon dps of 10, you want your final average dps to be at *least* 10 as well after adding the second weapon. Assume a final desirable dps of 10, and remove the speed bonus:
10 / 1.15 = avg dps of weapons. Multiply it by 2 to get total dps. Subtract 10 to get the required dps of 2nd weapon. Divide 10 by this number to see what % higher 10 is and you'll find it to be approximately 35%.
I would provide full equations, but I'm on a phone currently.
Also the better statement regarding these calculations is that these matter for abilities that use both weapons' damages. As patch notes state, not all abilities will operate as such, *especially* for aoe abilities in your low hp environment. Ultimately, this is not a tower defense where you are limited in time, but in your survivability and attack speed & overkill are far concerns compared to many other questions such as ability setup, environment, and other equipment.
Realizing that 2 fast weapons is faster overall than 1 fast and 1 slow is what is pertinent here, as well as the loss in dps from the arguably more important situation, faced by a single or few strong enemies over many weak. It's also important when evaluating barb and dh weapon situations where there are specific generation and damage fluctuations as a result of opting for a shield or quiver over second weapon.
i wrote this post on a diffrent thread and i didn't get an answer to is...so i hope u can help me with this:
"i am not sure i get this new thing about duel wielding:
When dual-wielding, certain skills will now always use your main-hand weapon to determine damage
For example, Cyclone Strike will use your main-hand weapon damage even if your off-hand weapon is set to swing next
if i understand it correctly it means that only 1 weapon at a time will modify the dmg of the skill, so technically the only advantage u have with duel wielding is their speed and their stats, but not the fact u r holding 2 different weapons which have each their own dmg. and if thats the case than u better off with a 1 hand and shield cuz atleast than u have more armor while with dw u don't get extra dmg.
if any1 understand it differently or mayB know more about this - plz tell me. cuz if it's the way i think it is - it's a rly sad day for all the monk, barb and DH duel wielders.
"
if u guys already answer it...i apologize,,,guess my english comprehension isn't good as i thought .
nice info and video,i would like to know why some weapons change weapon % on skill runes,look at this video and how grasp of the dead with groping eels change weapon %
i wrote this post on a diffrent thread and i didn't get an answer to is...so i hope u can help me with this:
"i am not sure i get this new thing about duel wielding:
When dual-wielding, certain skills will now always use your main-hand weapon to determine damage
For example, Cyclone Strike will use your main-hand weapon damage even if your off-hand weapon is set to swing next
if i understand it correctly it means that only 1 weapon at a time will modify the dmg of the skill, so technically the only advantage u have with duel wielding is their speed and their stats, but not the fact u r holding 2 different weapons which have each their own dmg. and if thats the case than u better off with a 1 hand and shield cuz atleast than u have more armor while with dw u don't get extra dmg.
if any1 understand it differently or mayB know more about this - plz tell me. cuz if it's the way i think it is - it's a rly sad day for all the monk, barb and DH duel wielders.
"
if u guys already answer it...i apologize,,,guess my english comprehension isn't good as i thought .
thanks again,
Arrok
You quite don't understand how dual wielding works
I'll show you on example.
Lets say you're playing as barbarian, and you want to do Cleave three times. You're equipped with two weapons:
- your main hand has 20 dps
- your offhand has 5 dps
For the sake of simplicity lets assume 1.00 AS and no additional modifiers, I'm also disregarding attack speed buffs.
In this scenario:
- your main hand attack does 20 damage
- your offhand does 5 damage
- your average dps is 12.5 dps (this is what you'll see on character screen).
Beacuse of how you're switching weapon for every other attack, while dual wielding you'll see that:
- your first cleave will do 20 damage
- your second cleave will do 5 damage
- your third cleave will do 20 damage (and so on)
But for Cyclone Strike it would always be (disregarding damage modifier from the skill itself):
- your first Cyclone Strike does 20 damage
- your second Cyclone Strike does 20 damage
- your third Cyclone Strike does 20 damage
My guess is that every 'powerful' skill, with longish cooldown will be like that from now on. It is a good change though. It gives you some flexibility when it comes to weapon choosing. You will benefit from your offhand modifiers though (like dexterity etc).
And it maximizes your damage
I don't know how to explaing it more clearly.
yup i think u explained it rly good - so as long as there r some skills which use the speed of the duel wield and every hit is been made with a different weapon than thats fine....however( if i understand u correctly) when i use a skill with CD - which means speed doesn't affect it much, the dmg is according to ur main weapon - which for ur own good should be the weapon with the highest dmg between the 2 weapons to make it the most effective. so i see the case is that when it comes to skills with CD 2hand weapons is the better weapon to use. but on skills with no CD the balance between 2 hand and duel wield is fine :)( cuz than the speed is getting into account).
thanks alot for explaining it for me, i rly appreciate it and hopefully i understood what u wanted to say
ya ofc everything is an assumption cuz we didn't play diablo 3 and it's not the final version.
but now it's alot more clearer for me thx alot for ur time to explain that to me.
now i see how APS is always taking into account- even in a CD skill- plus even tho cyclone strike uses only main weapon that main weapon also has that extra 15% of his own ASP when i use duel-wield so there is some what a "bonus" effect to the cyclone strike when u use duel-wield :). so now i will also have another thing to take into consideration when i choose my weapon - rather it's duel-wielding, 1h and shield or 2h :D.
The breakpoint for when dual wielding will result in a net benefit is when the average dps of your weapons will be at least more than [better weapon dps] / 1.3. With the example value of 10, it's approximately 7.7 dps; anything higher will be a net increase, anything less is a net decrease.
Again, this assumes only raw dps, and doesn't take into account other effects.
But other effects are very important to the point that it makes your number there unusable.
When dual wielding you can actually remove a higher DPS weapon for a lower DPS weapon and have your net DPS go up because of stats/speed difference/speed transfer onto better weapon/critical hit chance.
All the video was trying to make sure people don't assume second weapons are additive which a lot of people do.
I think your assumption about truncating weapon speeds is incorrect.
I was running some tests in-game just now to determine if the dual wield bonus was multiplicative or additive with other non-weapon IAS and got these numbers:
As you can see, the bonuses are clearly not multiplicative. The additive results match assuming rounding rather than truncation except for the 1.50 speed test case.
I'm assuming that your truncation assumption was based on similar values like 1.30 * 1.15 = 1.495 displaying as 1.49 rather than 1.50. I think there is a better explanation of these results, though. Attacks per second are stored internally as a floating point number and neither 1.935 nor 1.495 (or any decimal ending in 5) is exactly representable as a binary float. I believe in all case the actual representation is more like 1.93499999 and 1.4949999 which explains why those specific cases seem to be truncated when they are actually just being rounded.
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Starting a new video series today where I go beneath the surface of the systems being used in Diablo 3 and try to answer questions people have/will have about the less obvious mechanics in the game.
My goal with each video will be to get to questions that will actually allow for us to make better decisions when we play the game. You can see an example of a very "actionable" question in the third question of this episode.
The three questions I'll be answering today are:
1. How much does dual wielding increase attack speed?
2. Is your attack speed when dual wielding an average of each (weapon's) speed or independent?
3. Is it always better to be using two weapons?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vke_bm42cNI
Hope you guys enjoy and learn something from this.
I love making this style of video because I learn a lot myself, please ask questions you have and if the answer is something I think people want to know I'll include it in one of the videos!
=]
1.2 * 1.15 = 1.38
1.38 / 1.2 = 1.15 = 15% increase.
1.4 * 1.15 = 1.61
1.5 * 1.15 = 1.725
Additionally, because it is modifying both weapon speeds, and because you are attacking with each weapon separately, the final overall speed can be simply the average attack speed.
As for the dps, it's the same thing in that you are averaging the damage because you are alternating between the two. If you have 2 weapons of exactly equal dps and stats, you can expect that 15% increase in dps. Any difference between them and you get less. With a significant difference in dps, you lose dps due to the wasted time swinging the other weapon.
As an example:
Assuming two 1.0 speed weapons with 10-10 range, you will expect to see 1.15 as the speed for both weapons and your dps should go from 10 to 11.5 as a result.
When you drop to one weapon with 7-8 range and same speed, you get 10+8 = average of 9 * 1.15 = 10.35 dps.
The breakpoint for when dual wielding will result in a net benefit is when the average dps of your weapons will be at least more than [better weapon dps] / 1.3. With the example value of 10, it's approximately 7.7 dps; anything higher will be a net increase, anything less is a net decrease.
Again, this assumes only raw dps, and doesn't take into account other effects.
I heard there was a damage increase to 2 handed weapons (about 15%) to compensate for dual wielding getting an attack speed buff so they stay comparable. Any truth to this?
Just talking about the IAS bonus for now.. so it truncates the decimals rather than rounds?
I mean if I have a 1.38 attack speed weapon then it only goes up to 1.58 even though 1.38*1.15 = 1.5875
I'll keep testing
If at any point anyone has information on dual wielding vs 2handed I'd love to see that too. I think that's one area that's still abit ambiguous.
I made the mistake of assuming they would round rather than truncate.
Really my fault and I do appreciate you calling me on it asap.
As for the rest of your post, I'd call the majority of it extensions rather than corrections.
I'll just make my own comments on what you wrote because I'm interested in keeping the conversation going.
The final overall speed can be an average, but it isn't. In the game it shows each weapon speed based on what will swing next.
Hope I understood you properly.
If you're going to go so far as to find these numbers, and I applaud you for doing so, you need to also take it a step further and mention that higher attack speed and lower DPS might be more valuable if you are facing a large number of weak units as opposed to a few strong units (like in PvP). This is of course due to the wasted damage you have when you kill a unit. Anyone who's played an RPG and scoffed at getting an enemy down to <1% life and having to give it another full hit should be able to relate to this.
Working now correct?
http://www.diablofan...post__p__740890
Calculated using the following. Given a higher weapon dps of 10, you want your final average dps to be at *least* 10 as well after adding the second weapon. Assume a final desirable dps of 10, and remove the speed bonus:
10 / 1.15 = avg dps of weapons. Multiply it by 2 to get total dps. Subtract 10 to get the required dps of 2nd weapon. Divide 10 by this number to see what % higher 10 is and you'll find it to be approximately 35%.
I would provide full equations, but I'm on a phone currently.
Also the better statement regarding these calculations is that these matter for abilities that use both weapons' damages. As patch notes state, not all abilities will operate as such, *especially* for aoe abilities in your low hp environment. Ultimately, this is not a tower defense where you are limited in time, but in your survivability and attack speed & overkill are far concerns compared to many other questions such as ability setup, environment, and other equipment.
Realizing that 2 fast weapons is faster overall than 1 fast and 1 slow is what is pertinent here, as well as the loss in dps from the arguably more important situation, faced by a single or few strong enemies over many weak. It's also important when evaluating barb and dh weapon situations where there are specific generation and damage fluctuations as a result of opting for a shield or quiver over second weapon.
"i am not sure i get this new thing about duel wielding:
if any1 understand it differently or mayB know more about this - plz tell me. cuz if it's the way i think it is - it's a rly sad day for all the monk, barb and DH duel wielders.
"
if u guys already answer it...i apologize,,,guess my english comprehension isn't good as i thought .
thanks again,
Arrok
http://www.youtube.c...d&v=CvBAtCtT7_M
yup i think u explained it rly good - so as long as there r some skills which use the speed of the duel wield and every hit is been made with a different weapon than thats fine....however( if i understand u correctly) when i use a skill with CD - which means speed doesn't affect it much, the dmg is according to ur main weapon - which for ur own good should be the weapon with the highest dmg between the 2 weapons to make it the most effective. so i see the case is that when it comes to skills with CD 2hand weapons is the better weapon to use. but on skills with no CD the balance between 2 hand and duel wield is fine :)( cuz than the speed is getting into account).
thanks alot for explaining it for me, i rly appreciate it and hopefully i understood what u wanted to say
best regards,
Arrok
but now it's alot more clearer for me thx alot for ur time to explain that to me.
now i see how APS is always taking into account- even in a CD skill- plus even tho cyclone strike uses only main weapon that main weapon also has that extra 15% of his own ASP when i use duel-wield so there is some what a "bonus" effect to the cyclone strike when u use duel-wield :). so now i will also have another thing to take into consideration when i choose my weapon - rather it's duel-wielding, 1h and shield or 2h :D.
thx again for the help and take care m8,
Arrok
There is 1 question I have and was wondering if you can answer or test/verify.
With damage increase skills are they multiplicative or additive?
For example a wizard has 2 skills that increase the damage by 30% and 20% and add that to the monk's mantra to increase damage by another 20%.
If the base damage is say 100% is the concluded damage 100x1.3x1.2x1.2 = 187.2%
Or is it 100 + 30 + 20 + 20 = 170%
Or it could be more complicated and have a mixture of multiplicative and additive skills.
Thanks in advance for any information you may share
Great question! I'll look into it =]
But other effects are very important to the point that it makes your number there unusable.
When dual wielding you can actually remove a higher DPS weapon for a lower DPS weapon and have your net DPS go up because of stats/speed difference/speed transfer onto better weapon/critical hit chance.
All the video was trying to make sure people don't assume second weapons are additive which a lot of people do.
Thanks for posting tho!
I was running some tests in-game just now to determine if the dual wield bonus was multiplicative or additive with other non-weapon IAS and got these numbers:
14% non-weapon IAS (4% glove, 5% ring, 5% ring)
1.50 * 1.14 * 1.15 = 1.9665
1.50 * (1.14 + 1.15) = 1.935
in-game display: 1.93
1.40 * 1.14 * 1.15 = 1.8354
1.40 * (1.14 + 1.15) = 1.806
in-game display: 1.81
1.30 * 1.14 * 1.15 = 1.7043
1.30 * (1.14 + 1.15) = 1.677
in-game display: 1.68
1.20 * 1.14 * 1.15 = 1.5732
1.20 * (1.14 + 1.15) = 1.548
in-game display: 1.55
As you can see, the bonuses are clearly not multiplicative. The additive results match assuming rounding rather than truncation except for the 1.50 speed test case.
I'm assuming that your truncation assumption was based on similar values like 1.30 * 1.15 = 1.495 displaying as 1.49 rather than 1.50. I think there is a better explanation of these results, though. Attacks per second are stored internally as a floating point number and neither 1.935 nor 1.495 (or any decimal ending in 5) is exactly representable as a binary float. I believe in all case the actual representation is more like 1.93499999 and 1.4949999 which explains why those specific cases seem to be truncated when they are actually just being rounded.