[Arbedark]

Since the developers of D3 are wanting the game to be more tactical and strategic, I propose that they introduce more short-term buffs, and debuffs, on timers of course.

In Diablo 2 there were very few Short-Term buffs, and only really curses and a couple of the Barbs Warcries for Debuffs. By allowing the buffs to be such long-term and spammable they efectively took away an element of strategy that could add more depth to the game. The same is true for curses, they had such a long duration and were so spammable that they were in effect applied to every monster you ever fought, all the time.

Now I've introduced the idea in a basic concept, I'll present some examples of what I propose:

N.B These are just ideas, to give a flavour of what sort of stuff could be used, not necessarily actual skills to implement.

Buffs

1. Burst of Speed

In Diablo 2 the Burst of Speed skill wasn't really a Burst, more like a Prolonged Skill of Speed Enhancement. To make things more interesting Burst of speed could last 30 seconds and be on a 180 second cooldown. So if you cast BoS at every opportunity it would be up for 30 seconds, then down for 150 seconds, up 1/6 of the time. To balance this, BoS would of course need to be more powerful, a greater IAS boost, greater FRW Boost, maybe a damage boost to reflect increased Velocity. As well as increasing the potency of the skill it would need to be stackable with any other Buffs that were implemented (I.E if Fade was left as a long-term Buff, BoS wouldn't override Fade, but instead work as well as Fade). By doing this there would be many tactical considerations in both PvM and PvP. For PvM, do you cast BoS at every opportunity, or maybe save it for the tougher fights? Do you use it to wipe out the Minions with a Boss or save it until the Minions are dead to kill the Boss quicker? In PvP do you cast it at the start of a duel to try and get a quick kill, or wait and try and surprise your opponent? This sort of strategic thinking would add to the gameplay in my opinion, instead of joining a game and casting all your Buffs at the start and not having to cast a single one for over 10 minutes.

2. Focus (Placeholder name)

Focus would be a buff for the Mage character, granting a percentage bonus to all offensive spells. With a medium length and a medium cooldown (so it would be available roughly half the time), exact percent would need to be calculated so it wouldn't be necessary for the class to function, but would be a nice pick of skills if you could manage to re-cast it regularly.

3. Rapid Block

Rapid Block is a defensive buff for the main shield using character, granting 95% chance to block all physical attacks for 15 seconds, with a long cooldown (180-300 seconds cooldown). Granting near immunity for a very short time this skill would have tactical uses, but wouldn't necessarily be a "must-have" skill.

4. Regeneration Skill

Granting rapid health regeneration for a short period of time to a class, OHK's could still cause problems but would add survivability.

5. Charge up skills

Very similar to Frenzy from D2, as the skill charges up grants bonus', short term so you need to keep attacking with it to keep the bonus'.

6. Empower

Empowers a caster class with formidable melee skills, giving increased damage, IAS, DR etc, for 2-3 minutes, 4 minute cooldown. While empowered unable to cast spells, can only use melee skills etc.

Debuffs

1. Vicious Swing

An attack that gives a target a reduction in damage as they reel from the attack, the debuff lasts 3 seconds or so and gives -50% damage, less effective on Bosses / Depending on the size of the monster.

2. Lethargy

AoE Spell that has the same effect as chilling from D2, but can work on CI's and Bosses, 10 second duration, 12 second cooldown.

3. Voodoo Curse

Acts similar to a curse from D2, but with much shorter duration and a cooldown. Possibly just overlaps so can be kept in a boss perma, or maybe 1-2 seconds where the curse would have run out but the curse hasn't recharged yet, like lethargy example above.

Combined Buffs / Debuffs

1. Blade Shield

Ala Blade Shield from D2, caster surrounded by a shield of blades for a short while, gives defensive bonus' to the caster, and debuffs any monsters in contact with the caster.

Basically I'm hoping that there are lot more strategic skills in D3, rather than simply casting BO etc at the start of the game, then spamming the same offensive skill for the entire game. Adding buffs and debuffs with a short duration means they will need to be cast frequently, breaking up the monotony of casting the exact same offensive skill over and over again, and will add the tactical elements of deciding when to use the buffs or debuffs.

Thoughts and Opinions welcome.

[cjc5814]

I personally would hate buffing myself all the time.

Maybe they could have a large affect with a large cool down. Now I'd like to maybe save my "focus" for a boss in this case rather than burning it on simple mobs.

[Hnokki]

cjc5814 said:

I personally would hate buffing myself all the time.

Maybe they could have a large affect with a large cool down. Now I'd like to maybe save my "focus" for a boss in this case rather than burning it on simple mobs.

That's exactly what he was proposing. You'd have to save your buffs/debuffs for uniqes, bosses or when you're almost dead and need just a little extra to save your butt.

[cheebalover]

no fucking waaay!!! this game would then be WOW and we dont want that!! no short term buffs!

[Mastertim]

I like short term stuns/debuffs to other monsters, but I'm less thrilled about short term buffs. They basically serve the same purpose debuff for opponent makes you stronger in relation to them, buff makes you stronger in relation to the opponent. Its just that debuffs keep your focus on your opponent at all times. So in that way debuffs are better, so there is no point for both.

[Spelljammer]

Good idea, and they could also just make them available on unique items.

[Hnokki]

cheebalover said:

no fucking waaay!!! this game would then be WOW and we dont want that!! no short term buffs!

No it wouldn't. It would still be a fast paced action game, only you'd have to give a little thought into when and where you'd use your skills.

[cheebalover]

but but diablo was never that kinda game..we arent playing a strategy...

[Mortaal]

cheebalover said:

but but diablo was never that kinda game..we arent playing a strategy...

Agree to the above, and still I think short term buffs and cooldowns of over 10 seconds belong in WoW and not in Diablo games.

It just feels wrong somehow. sorry

[Arbedark]

cheebalover said:

no fucking waaay!!! this game would then be WOW and we dont want that!! no short term buffs!

No, it wouldn't be WoW. I'm not advocating Mounts, Raiding or anything else. Merely short term buffs and debuffs, which don't belong uniquiely to MMO's. About the only redeeming feature of Titan Quest was that it had short term buffs and debuffs which made it more interesting, even if it was chronically easy.

Hnokki said:

No it wouldn't. It would still be a fast paced action game, only you'd have to give a little thought into when and where you'd use your skills.

Thank you, exactly what I'm hoping for. You're clearing out the Chaos Sanctuary, and are having problems with one of the seal Bosses, use your Buff and take them down, or try and weather through them and save the Buff for Big D himself? More interesting.

cheebalover said:

but but diablo was never that kinda game..we arent playing a strategy...

No, but some strategic elements will add to the gameplay value. I'm suggesting that even without these buffs one can kill pretty quickly, but good use of these buffs will seperate the good players from the bad. And I'd rather have something else to do than spam the same spell repeatedly ala D2. Adding in buffs you have to recast or even just putting cooldowns on the more damaging spells would do this.

Mortaal said:

Agree to the above, and still I think short term buffs and cooldowns of over 10 seconds belong in WoW and not in Diablo games.

It just feels wrong somehow. sorry

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it, at least you're not flaming the idea for no reason, but I respectfully disagree with your opinion and feel that they would add more depth to the gameplay. :cool:

[Tiger]

I agree with OP, was going to make a thread myself, Diablo 3 needs strategy and from what the devs have said I think thats what we will get.

[akse]

Barbs shouts should be shorter tho. Like it was in 1.09. I hate those people that have their own BO bot in every damn game.. damn bunch of unskilled losers that can't play without double life(same goes for the ridiculous runeword bo).

In 1.09 they last like 1-2 minute IIRC.. Pre-LOD it wasn't wise to put more than 10 points to BO because of diminishing returns, the duration was even shorter.. 1 min.. Checked from arreat summit not sure if the duration times are same as then.

Not sure about these buffs, if they have too long cooldown, you eventually forget to use them. Thats what heppened to me in wow at least. I had to macro them to skills I used all the time in order to remember to use some cooldowns .)

[storm_temple]

cheebalover said:

but but diablo was never that kinda game..we arent playing a strategy...

Stick to diablo 1 plz.
who said d2 didn't have buff?
Shout , increase defense buff
Battle Orders ,increase mana life & stamina

Paladins has it in the form or an aura.(too many to list)
Sorceress has frost armor.
Necro Bone armor
Druid Cyclone armor
Assassin Blade sheild ,fade ,burst of speed

There are some dreaded moments in D2 when a buff or debuff and evasive maneuver
would prove critical
The Minotaur in act 5
The pack that comes with a unique monster
(physical immune,fanatism aura ,curse,extra strong) Fury attack
before 1.10 they could clean up any combo party.

Maybe someone holy could cast Faith Armor - damage reduce 80% for 5 seconds
reduce mana to zero
enuff time for everyone to get to safety and counter.

Act 4 - sanctuary
The Bane and doom of all melee heroes.
Some barbs and fighters are heavily surrounded. they are cursed by iron maiden.
Then a Paladin cast
Divine purge
Dispels curses , cures diseases poison
Remove on Cast and Protection last 5 - 10 seconds. (certain radius circle of effect)

Wouldn't that be cooler than switching to cleansing aura and waiting for it to take effect

The Assassin could teleport/phase 13 yards back leaving her shadow clone in her former place seamlessly would be ubber in pkpkpk with balancing and timer of course

You got my idea
It's would be more fun to play actively than passively.
Just cast BC, BO and Shout and they last ridiculously long then hack n slash away
untill boom.
-Barbarian Killed by Oblivion Knight-:O

[Kenzai]

Diablo's strategy lies in class builds and deciding your strategy before getting in the fight
Just like in real life, you dont have time to stop and think about what to do now, you have to prepare and practise your strategy before getting in action.

Strategy in D2 is good in that way, but buffes and such were just casted before getting in the fight and they lasted untill the end.
If it will be like its described in the OP, with short duration and long cooldown, it would add to the action AND strategy.
You would have to not only decide which buffes to use before getting in the fight, but when to cast them during the fight to get the best benefit.

Thats how i look at it, thus i totally agree with the OP.

[Tiger]

With the durations/cost in Diablo 2 most were basicaly passive skills.

[Kenzai]

Tiger said:

With the durations/cost in Diablo 2 most were basicaly passive skills.

Yes. As an example, paladin auras were like defensive and offensive passive skills. :D
If you want to use more than one combat skill, just use a shortcut to switch to it. It doesnt really matter if the aura takes the second button.

Thats why i think spirits are better, they should be enchanced though.
Some spirits are timed but invincible.
Some gain bonuses as you kill or something, but can be killed.

I can imagine how cool it would be.
The demons surround you and your party, your mercs get slaughtered...
Then suddenly... BAM! Cast your short duration über spirit with monstrous bonuses and send those damn demons back where they came from...

Think of the animation. The paladin raises his sword and an angel like creature appears blessing your party members...

Hope i could explain what i think of.

[Vio]

I'm sorry but this is an atrocious idea. There are plenty of ways to increase strategy without introducing buffs with cooldowns in the minutes.

Here's the issue. If an ability has a cooldown that's reasonable, it will just be spammed every time it's up with another ability filling in the gap, if the cooldown is unreasonable then that ability is essentially a boss skill and would never be used against anything but bosses.

Now this is one of the primary problems. If Blizzard put in abilities that had cooldowns in the minutes then they would have to design all boss mobs around these abilites. For you see, if they didn't design the bosses around these abilities anyone could save their cooldowns or just go AFK prior to a boss fight to wait for any that are unfinished.

Because of what I just pointed out, the choice in using these abilites would be merely an illusion. You say it would add depth but in reality it would merely turn these few abilites into boss abilities or skills that you use for fun to completely wreck something insignificant.

Cooldowns are almost universally a bad idea in a game of this sort. In games like these that are hack and slash, consistancy is what should be strived for, not bursts of power. Bursts of power inbalance everything. As I have pointed out, it wouldn't be a choice but rather a forced hand to save these power-house moves for boss mobs. The depth would only be there for those that literally just started the game, have never played a game of the same sort prior, and have a slight mental deficiency.

Another issue is that these abilities work negatively with the talent system used in Diablo II and I'm assuming will at least be mostly present in Diablo III.

Considering that one must use talent points to acquire abilities, and that talent points are then used to boost abilities five, ten, or even twenty times over. That means that spending your precious talent pool on a powerful, large cooldown, would be terrible. You could argue that it would add some more tact in choosing your talents but honestly that is not the part of the game that needs the boost in strategy.

Overall I could never see this idea working in a game such as this. Again, cooldowns would not add depth but instead add yet another restriction. You wouldn't be able to play the game without these powerful cooldowns to take bosses down and it would add a large amount of tedium.

Not being able to use your abilities is not fun, it detracts significantly from any fast-paced action.

I could probably write up multiple pages (much more coherently and well organized) as to why this idea would never fit within the DIII universe but I don't have the time at the moment.

I'll leave you with the former, scattered thoughts, and call it a night.

[woop]

Quote

I can imagine how cool it would be.
The demons surround you and your party, your mercs get slaughtered...
Then suddenly... BAM! Cast your short duration über spirit with monstrous bonuses and send those damn demons back where they came from...

Think of the animation. The paladin raises his sword and an angel like creature appears blessing your party members...

Omniknight from DotA?

[Kenzai]

Nice post Vio.

Perhaps instead of waiting for cool-down, we should kill x many monsters to be able to use the skill again.
Or x many experience. Otherwise, an area full of low health creeps would be easy.

woop said:

Omniknight from DotA?

lol

I played DotA for a very short time, dont really like it.

No idea who Omniknight is, i really made that idea up.

[waterswind]

the debuffs would have to be really strong and area on effect (aoe) for the fast paced fighting you do in diablo games and as you could see in the gameplay video the monsters are pretty easy to kill so the curses or debuffs would have to be really dramatic and have a huge aoe or be very dramatic and focused on one target (for boss fights) i still can only see debuffs as not useless when they are implemented on opponents that are difficult to kill and by the looks of the gameplay thats strictly limited to sub bosses and bosses

imo debuffs dont fit in diablo