76 replies to this topic

[Aldoran]

Quote

Also, there are builds in D3 that don't need CHD, or builds that even try to stay away from IAS, and so on. It's not all black and
white...

what are these builds for endgame? endgame = efficient killing things on mp8-10, not 5mins to bitchslap one elitepack

[Loroese]

Aldoran, on 27 February 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

what are these builds for endgame? endgame = efficient killing things on mp8-10, not 5mins to bitchslap one elitepack

CMWW is the one I know of, the wizard build talked about previously. It doesn't need CD, though CD does raise the dps and thus farming speed. However the build farms MP8-10 reasonably fast with as little as 100-150k dps. Lower MP are still more efficient, but that's likely true for pretty much everyone trying to run MP8-10. With the right gear and choice of skills you can kill elites in 20-30s or less pretty easily.

[Bagstone]

What Loroese said. Plus, WDs stay away from IAS because it just makes mana consumption go through the roof. (It's something that wasn't obvious to me at first, but getting rid of IAS helped a lot).

[morbidlymystic]

Bagstone, on 27 February 2013 - 07:34 PM, said:

What Loroese said. Plus, WDs stay away from IAS because it just makes mana consumption go through the roof. (It's something that wasn't obvious to me at first, but getting rid of IAS helped a lot).

That is ONE build out of the entire game thus far that I know of.

By getting rid of you mean by swapping it with an alternative dmg stat right?

Edited by morbidlymystic, 27 February 2013 - 08:40 PM.

[Jaetch]

Old-school WW barbs focus on IAS and CC to proc Fury regeneration and LOH from Sprint Dust Devils. Technically no need for CD there other than to speed up killing things (which is counter-productive since WW barbs want to keep things alive just long enough to retain Fury regeneration for WOTB).

[maka]

^^I thought the point was to kill things, not keep them alive. If you're killing things too fast, you can increase the MP level, which brings me (and you) back to the original point: CC+CD.

Edited by maka, 27 February 2013 - 10:03 PM.

[Jaetch]

maka, on 27 February 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

^^I thought the point was to kill things, not keep them alive. If you're killing things too fast, you can increase the MP level, which brings me (and you) back to the original point: CC+CD.

Yep, and you'll keep killing things faster and faster, so you keep ramping up MP higher and higher, until everything dies too fast anyway and you come to the conclusion...

...Well, I think I'm pretty stacked now. I'm at the elusive "end-game."

[maka]

Come on, you know very well what I was saying. You saying that CD isn't important to WW barbs because they want to keep things alive is a fallacy.

[Jaetch]

maka, on 27 February 2013 - 11:18 PM, said:

Come on, you know very well what I was saying. You saying that CD isn't important to WW barbs because they want to keep things alive is a fallacy.

Jaetch, on 27 February 2013 - 09:07 PM, said:

WW barbs want to keep things alive just long enough to retain Fury regeneration for WOTB).

You don't want to one-shot trash mobs, which is what I meant about going into high MP levels.

[Richtko]

Agree with Jaetch. Played ww barb for about 500 hours and the build can get unbalanced if you stack too much damage before the rest of your gear is ready for it. You want mobs to stay alive long enough for your nado's to proc fury otherwise your walking around fury starved. I play CMWW now and play style aside there's a lot of similarities in the way the builds work, IAS and CC are mandatory stats for the builds to work correctly. If you just wanted to stack huge CC/CD it's not that hard, what's hard is balancing dps with other stats to increase you effective dps, and it should be IMO.

[morbidlymystic]

Jaetch, on 27 February 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

maka, on 27 February 2013 - 11:18 PM, said:

Come on, you know very well what I was saying. You saying that CD isn't important to WW barbs because they want to keep things alive is a fallacy.

Jaetch, on 27 February 2013 - 09:07 PM, said:

WW barbs want to keep things alive just long enough to retain Fury regeneration for WOTB).

You don't want to one-shot trash mobs, which is what I meant about going into high MP levels.

Then as he said you ramp up the difficulty....  If you can easily 1 shot mobs, then you should be doing that anyways, regardless of the spec/class.  You won't be 1 shotting MP10 mobs.

Edited by morbidlymystic, 28 February 2013 - 04:11 AM.

[Sigma]

morbidlymystic, on 27 February 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

Forock, on 27 February 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

Jaetch, on 27 February 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

Whoever wrote that guide needs to quit and uninstall the game.

Yes. The guy who wrote that guide does indeed need to uninstall the game. Then have his PC thrown out the window. Never mind it's probably a Mac.

Seriously though, this is the bottom line:

You do not need any CHD as a CM Wizard.

Sincerely,
One of the best CM Wizard EU

Ok fine, that spec is special then, and not a good standard for everyone.

You don't need it to clear high level content.  The spec is OP, which is why everyone and his dog uses some variation of it.

However, assuming you could afford it crit dmg on your gear would make you godly.

Turtel, on 27 February 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

morbidlymystic, on 27 February 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

Turtel, on 27 February 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

morbidlymystic, on 27 February 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

Except CC is 2nd best, maybe even 1st as it is used in a lot of proc based systems as well.  High crit chance is almost a given for any character.  If not then you are likely just gimping yourself to be a special snowflake.

Exactly! Weren't YOU the one saying how CHD is so much better than anything else?

Well considering Crit chance is a given, then yes it is.

If you prefer, then I can reword it.
The entire crit system is OP as hell.

See that's what i was pointing out earlier. You are looking at crit dmg on a character which already has high crit chance and most likely a good amount of primary stat, some AS and high weapon dmg..

All these stat synergize and make the CHD powerful together. Crit chance means you get to use your crit dmg more often, AS does the same, just by a lower amount. Weapon dmg/avg dmg and primary stat boost the base dmg, so CHD becomes more powerful if it multiplies a higher base.

CHD on low level characters is likely the worst stat you can get. There's not enough to support it.

I get your point, i really do, but understand that the power of CHD comes from the support of all other stats and 1 stat always will be the best - just like AS was, when the values were double.


There could be some balancing yes, but it won't happen.


edit: Okay well now with the edited post you are aiming at 2 out of 5 (regular) dps stats. I'd slightly changed what i wrote before, not bothering.

None of that changes the fact that at 60 geared its by far the most dominant stat far surpassing any other in dps contribution.
It needs to be nerfed!
Blizz can either lower Crit dmg affixes. lower crit chance (though this makes +crit% skills stronger) or nerf both.

Wait,  What....
did I just read that right,  you want (in a game which there is no real PVP) a nerf on DPS.
Excuse me whilst I just go and pick my jaw up off the floor.

WHY (and I have read the thread)  WHY would anyone want to nerf their DPS in a PVE game.  it makes no sense to me at all.

[maka]

Go back and read the whole thing after you pick up your jaw ( ). The OP feels that the prevalence of CC/CD limits gear choice and pigeonholes all classes and most builds into the same affixes and the same gear.

[TheDFO]

maka, on 28 February 2013 - 02:27 AM, said:

Go back and read the whole thing after you pick up your jaw ( ). The OP feels that the prevalence of CC/CD limits gear choice and pigeonholes all classes and most builds into the same affixes and the same gear.

I'm confused on two things. Only one of which has to do with this. The whole idea of why people are pigeonholed is because they only accept the fast farming gear possible, which means just enough ehp to survive, and then DPS DPS DPS! If they nerf CHC/CHD, then something else will be the best, and everyone will focus on that. Correct? Is a better solution to be so all DPS stats (which, lets be honest, as long as this game is about farming item drops, it's going to be the same idea of just enough ehp to live, and then all damage) are so amazingly balanced that you can stack any of them and it would work? That sounds near impossible. Or is the complaint that it is just easier to do this with CHC/CHD?

The second thing that confuses me is that CHD is really only OPed if you get enough CHC (and base stats). Is it really that easy to get enough CHC to make CHD useful? Further, everyone seems to be saying +CHD vs anything stat, but that's not the issue. It's actually +CHC AND +CHD vs any other stat. This might not matter if it's actually easy to get +CHC up enough. I'm not sure, never had that much cash.

[shaggy]

maka, on 28 February 2013 - 02:27 AM, said:

Go back and read the whole thing after you pick up your jaw ( ). The OP feels that the prevalence of CC/CD limits gear choice and pigeonholes all classes and most builds into the same affixes and the same gear.

It's not the prevalence of CHC/CHD gear.  It's the fact that in EVERY SLOT the BiS items amount to "lump as much DPS stats into this piece as possible, then use any leftover properties for Vit/% Life/resist all."  I made a few posts about this using amulets and gloves as examples.

Lets just say you're a DH.  You roll an amulet with Dex, minmax damage, Crit Chance, and IAS.  That's 4 of 6 properties.  What do you, ideally, want to do with the last two properties?  Most would say Crit Damage and Dex-Vit hybrid.

The problem is not that any offensive stat is "OP."  It's that any item becomes better by sacrificing EHP for DPS.  You can get enough EHP from shoulders, legs, chest, waist, boots, and helm that you want to max the fuck out of offensive stats on amulet, rings, gloves, and weapons.

We have TOO MANY potential offensive stats on a few particular items which completely trumps the idea of taking defensive stats on those itesm.  That's the whole problem with the system.  Hell, weapons can't even roll resist all, not like anyone would ever want that... but they can't.

[Sigma]

maka, on 28 February 2013 - 02:27 AM, said:

Go back and read the whole thing after you pick up your jaw ( ). The OP feels that the prevalence of CC/CD limits gear choice and pigeonholes all classes and most builds into the same affixes and the same gear.

I have no doubts that we are "pigeon holed" into certain gear choices.  However I still dont understand

morbidlymystic, on 27 February 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

None of that changes the fact that at 60 geared its by far the most dominant stat far surpassing any other in dps contribution.
It needs to be nerfed!
Blizz can either lower Crit dmg affixes. lower crit chance (though this makes +crit% skills stronger) or nerf both.

Can anyone explain why anyone would suggest a nerf to CHC / CHD, Because it make zero sense to me in a game where the sole idea after hitting level cap is to make your character as strong as possible.   Nerfing CHC/CHD  would obviously mean that your DPS would go down.

[morbidlymystic]

TheDFO, on 28 February 2013 - 02:48 AM, said:

maka, on 28 February 2013 - 02:27 AM, said:

Go back and read the whole thing after you pick up your jaw ( ). The OP feels that the prevalence of CC/CD limits gear choice and pigeonholes all classes and most builds into the same affixes and the same gear.

I'm confused on two things. Only one of which has to do with this. The whole idea of why people are pigeonholed is because they only accept the fast farming gear possible, which means just enough ehp to survive, and then DPS DPS DPS! If they nerf CHC/CHD, then something else will be the best, and everyone will focus on that. Correct? Is a better solution to be so all DPS stats (which, lets be honest, as long as this game is about farming item drops, it's going to be the same idea of just enough ehp to live, and then all damage) are so amazingly balanced that you can stack any of them and it would work? That sounds near impossible. Or is the complaint that it is just easier to do this with CHC/CHD?

The second thing that confuses me is that CHD is really only OPed if you get enough CHC (and base stats). Is it really that easy to get enough CHC to make CHD useful? Further, everyone seems to be saying +CHD vs anything stat, but that's not the issue. It's actually +CHC AND +CHD vs any other stat. This might not matter if it's actually easy to get +CHC up enough. I'm not sure, never had that much cash.

That is a viable argument IF it were the best by a small margin, but its a grand canyon.

Sigma, on 28 February 2013 - 03:20 AM, said:

maka, on 28 February 2013 - 02:27 AM, said:

Go back and read the whole thing after you pick up your jaw ( ). The OP feels that the prevalence of CC/CD limits gear choice and pigeonholes all classes and most builds into the same affixes and the same gear.

I have no doubts that we are "pigeon holed" into certain gear choices.  However I still dont understand

morbidlymystic, on 27 February 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

None of that changes the fact that at 60 geared its by far the most dominant stat far surpassing any other in dps contribution.
It needs to be nerfed!
Blizz can either lower Crit dmg affixes. lower crit chance (though this makes +crit% skills stronger) or nerf both.

Can anyone explain why anyone would suggest a nerf to CHC / CHD, Because it make zero sense to me in a game where the sole idea after hitting level cap is to make your character as strong as possible.   Nerfing CHC/CHD  would obviously mean that your DPS would go down.

Because it pigeon holes everyone into the same gear and same specs.  Especially weapons.
Balancing the game makes it more fun for everyone.

Edited by morbidlymystic, 28 February 2013 - 04:30 AM.

[Jack00]

Critical chance and critical damage bonus is probably the number #1 problem of the game, I've said it many times but I get shut downed by fanboys all the time. CC and CD bonus have become something so important that if an item doesn't have it, it's completely useless even if the rest of the stats are godlike. For exemple, I found a 2 handed weapon not long ago, 1290 dps, 500 str, 300 vit and 2 other good stats but guess what, no critical damage bonus and no critical chance neither, so my little crappy 790 dps dagger was better overall because it has CD bonus. I found sooo many great items, or should I say would be great items if CC and CD weren't a must but guess what, it is.
Another thing blizzard didn't think through while making the game. Add it to the list.

Edited by Jack00, 28 February 2013 - 04:20 AM.

[nadenitza]

There are no cons of having insane amounts of CD and CC, only pros. That's why everyone what's it. That's why there is no build devisity couse one stat rules em all, in a sorta way. Yes, yes other stats as increased dmg and IAS help too, but CD and CC multiply the crap out of them, so they are kinda bonus if you have em. It even further destroys build devisity i would say, they just add gasoline to the fire - it's "let's pump dat dps to the max mofo!" build and, hell, that may be the only build the game offer couse everything different than that is simply gimped. This is achieved because gear and itemization are flawed. Why do you stack stats? For more dps. Where are stats found? On your gear. WTF is gear used for? More dps. Hell do you even think about survivability? No, if you have enough dps and if you play softcore (especially). And the most importat piece of gear on your char is the weapon - if it's less than a 1K+ dps with as much CD on default as possible and with a socket forget about it.

It was a con having loads of CD and CC. when you met a reflect dmg champion, not anymore tho it got nerfed. That's where difficulty kinda stepped it but it flopped, or they kinda made it flop. But if your itemization and gear are flawed, difficulty would do little to fix it, in fact it will make it worse. That's why they nerfed the hell out inferno, couse of the flawed itemization but they just shot themself in the head again. Trying to kill fire with more fire. It's like a domino man.

As i previously mentioned the equivalent of CD in d2 is crushing blow, in sorta way. It was a rare stat and allowed some build diversity and gear choice and not having it was not that big of a deal either. Not the case in d3 tho, if you got no cc and/or cd in d3 your char is gimped until further notice. What diversity is that?

Now look here, im not saying nerf this nerf that, im not the guy how goes on and does that. I don't care if it gets nerfed or not anyway. What i wanna say is that stuff hurts one of the most godly aspects a diablo game can offer - creating your unique char that kicks ass in the endgame. The only unique thing in this D3 game is the "1k+ dps weapon that stacks em critters like mad", anything less that dat's a gimped story, not worth the time.

/end of rambling

Edited by nadenitza, 28 February 2013 - 07:10 AM.

[inkcheese]

TBH I don't believe that Critical Hit Damage should even exist outside of skills.