41 replies to this topic

[nadenitza]

Ghost_Sanguis, on 26 February 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

Nothing against the guide writers themselves, but rather the people that request them. I mean, is it just me or have some people lost their ability to make their own decisions? I've been seeing a lot of this on this forum in particular, and I'm not sure about the other forums.

Ignoring the fact that it's funner to farm your own gear, what is the point in playing if you can't bring yourself to experiment with gear choices (the only thing we really can experiment with that has a negative consequence, losing gold)? We cannot screw up characters, and you can always get more gold/gear later if it's a bad choice.

Am I the only one who thinks this?

You don't need any guides in this game, at least no anymore.

The only thing you need is a 1k+ dps weapon, everything else is irrelevant. That's how dumbed down and simplified itemization is.

[overneathe]

nadenitza, on 27 February 2013 - 02:51 AM, said:

dumbed down and simplified itemization

There are enough threads that talk about this. This one is not going to be one of them.

[morbidlymystic]

Ghost_Sanguis, on 27 February 2013 - 12:21 AM, said:

morbidlymystic, on 26 February 2013 - 10:59 PM, said:

Bleu42, on 26 February 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

I have to agree. All these 'help me find an upgrade' and 'what build to use?' threads are kind of annoying =D But, some people like to lead, some people like to be led.

So now we can't discuss builds either?  Cant talk about skills, cant talk about items, so whats left? Should we be speculating as to whether or not the scoundrel is banging the enchantress?

I'm not saying that people need to stop talking about things, they do as they please. I'm just saying that I think it's stupid.

D3 is items and builds, just like D2.
Thus you just said discussing the game is stupid on a site that is dedicated to doing just that.

Seriously, if the current discussions aren't DEEP enough for you, then that says something about the game and not the fanbase.

[ProzaicMuze]

I agree, but for very different reasons. I don't mind that people want to make "helpful videos," but in most cases these videos are actually detrimental to the viewer.

For example, I have yet to watch a budget guide in which I couldn't turn around and buy a cheaper and/or better set given my experience with the AH. I could make my own guide to prove this, but it would ruin itself as anyone attempting to repeat my steps would raise the price for others who are doing the same. By specifically telling people WHAT to buy rather than teaching them HOW to buy, budget guides are, in actuality, inflation guides.

This is precisely why I refuse to make purchasing guides for any of the build guides I put out. In the end, the only thing a budget guide really does is raise the price of everything it covers. I also partially blame budget guides for the horrible availability of certain items on the AH. Someone makes a guide saying "this item is worthless" causing many who blindly believe it to stop picking up that item. Daibos and Staves are perfect examples of this even though they are completely viable for specific builds built around them.

The same goes for those making build guides labeled "Best" or "Most Efficient [CLASS] Build!" Not only is this false, it's dishonest given that there are multiple builds for every class that excel at specific things. There is no one build for any class that is the best at everything. Even the WW Barb loses out to a HotA Barb in certain situations.

So while I'm not annoyed by the abundance of guides, I am disappointed by the often misleading content they contain.

[Bagstone]

ProzaicMuze, on 27 February 2013 - 06:48 AM, said:

In the end, the only thing a budget guide really does is raise the price of everything it covers.

If a budget guide covers 1) items that are really really cheap or 2) offers enough of alternatives, then it's fine. As long as there is basically unlimited supply, it works (just because some random int/MS/allres boots have been mentioned in a guide with a 50k price tag, people won't put them up for 1m in the AH). However, if guides focus on *one* legendary item on a slot and that is only available in small numbers (~10 or so), the budget guide is ridiculous because flippers are just gonna buy all these items and resell them for 2x the price. Then it's inflation, yes. Happened with the last guide. The previous "real budget" guides for less than a million were nice and didn't cause that kind of inflation.

[Ultragrisen]

Ghost_Sanguis, on 27 February 2013 - 12:21 AM, said:

morbidlymystic, on 26 February 2013 - 10:59 PM, said:

Bleu42, on 26 February 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

I have to agree. All these 'help me find an upgrade' and 'what build to use?' threads are kind of annoying =D But, some people like to lead, some people like to be led.

So now we can't discuss builds either?  Cant talk about skills, cant talk about items, so whats left? Should we be speculating as to whether or not the scoundrel is banging the enchantress?

I'm not saying that people need to stop talking about things, they do as they please. I'm just saying that I think it's stupid.

So getting help and learn from others=stupid? hahaha well my dear forum writer, then your life is gonna be prettu pretty hard.

[eytars_Wrath]

Diavolo222, on 26 February 2013 - 07:24 PM, said:

So we are now complaining about budget guides really?Grow the fuck up.

Bingo!

[Laevus]

I don't mind guides, budget or otherwise. They have given me a few tips on classes I didn't enjoy levelling and ignored the moment they hit 60. However, I think the worst part comes when the classes get pigeon-hold into a small handful of optimum builds due to these guides. I won't get into the debate over broken mechanics, farming efficiency etc, but I sometimes wish people use their imaginations to try different build/gear combos rather than jumping to one of the guides and sticking with it. I for one prefer to take the idea of the guide, and then tweak it or change it to suit myself, or see what I can come up with once I understand the principle of the class.

Not entirely off topic, but my main gripe with this forum lately has been the regular threads about videos or streams. i want to read and discuss on forums, not be directed to an external video all the time. I also don't understand why I should spend my time watching other people play. I won't get on a long rant about it, but sometimes I think it would be worth having a dedicated sub forum for streams or video only posts.

[maka]

"I help those who help themselves". And this also goes to the myriad of "HELP ME GEAR!" or "I HAVE 50M,TELL ME HOW TO SPEND THEM!" threads.

[JKlimek]

you guys are missing the forest for the trees.  This game isn't easy to figure out for people who don't spend 100 hours on their class and have enough money to waste it on the wrong types of equipment.  I HAVE spent hundreds of hours on this game and I still find it helpful to take a look at the budget guides to figure out classes I'm not that familiar with.

Think about it, how is the average person supposed to know about procs?  It doesn't say anything about that in the game.  There goes the CM build and the basis of the acid rain WD and to a certain extent the WW barb build.  How is any normal player supposed to figure out that IAS increases chanelling cost of spells?  There goes tempest rush monk.  You could waste a ton of money increasing your paper dps and then just lose out on efficiency for builds like the snow wizard build. Not to mention all of the spells and abilities that we have all discarded because it doesn't proc loh, or has a low proc rate, or etc etc. I have relatives that play this game that don't troll the forums regularly and have a hard time understanding the paragon levels, uber portal construction, where to find the new DE and plans, etc.  Stop to think for a second and try to figure out how you'd ever know half of what you know from simply the patch notes that are shown once on the splash screen before you log in and then never again.  There are people who NEED 1M build guides, can you imagine those people that are so terrible/dont have enough time to farm more than 1M gold?

You guys are not the target of these guides!

Edited by JKlimek, 27 February 2013 - 04:06 PM.

[maka]

^^Then let's discuss procs. Let's discuss skill mechanics. Let's discuss stats. Let's make general, permanent guides about the game, and not just make "SUPER 50M WD GUIDE" posts that to top it all off just directs you to a video.

Also, I only have a couple of million, yet I think these guides are worthless. Why one expects to be able to do MP10 Ubers by playing a couple of hours a week is beyond me. I don't even have a Hellfire Ring.

People should learn their place.

Edited by maka, 27 February 2013 - 05:25 PM.

[Jaetch]

maka, on 27 February 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

"I help those who help themselves". And this also goes to the myriad of "HELP ME GEAR!" or "I HAVE 50M,TELL ME HOW TO SPEND THEM!" threads.

This is especially true for people who PM me in-game for help. I usually don't help people right away, but I tell them to read up on all the guides that are available on this site before coming back to consult me. Then I tell them to share their own opinions on what to get and I'll explain whether or not I agree with their choices.

Best way to learn is by doing things yourself and emulating others who enjoy success and understanding why they succeed. But back on topic, the guides that are written cater to people who are pretty much clueless about a particular class and its builds. The guides are supplements, not meant to be the one single path to enlightenment. Actually playing the game will help you learn.

[maka]

To sum up my position: I like guides that don't tell you how to gear your character, or what skills to choose. Guides that EXPLAIN the class, explain the mechanics, the skills, how they work, what they do and don't do, what they proc and don't proc, etc.
I don't like guides that say "get items X, Y and Z; pick skills A, B and C"; I also don't like threads that basically ask people to tell them what to do. Like I said, the "I HAVE XX MILLION, TELL ME WHAT TO BUY!" threads. Every time I come to DFans, it seems that the "Recent Posts" section is filled with those posts.

[Bagstone]

I completely agree - guides should never say outright "buy X, use skill Y". It's just plain stupid and doesn't help the player. That's what I don't like about these recent Youtube video guides (besides the fact that 90% of them are just searching for clicks anyways).

However, there are people who really don't want to spend a lot of time on theorycrafting, and I don't have a problem helping them. ~15 years ago I bought, assembled, and configured dozens of computers for my friends. I loved to do this, they just wanted to use the PC and didn't care about the rest. It's the same with these threads "please help me": People ask for help, I like to help them, and I learn a lot by thinking about their char development. Winwin. Btw, there will always be threads that you don't like in the "recent posts" lists (for me it's every stream/video/giveaway thread).

[Jaetch]

Bagstone, on 27 February 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

I completely agree - guides should never say outright "buy X, use skill Y". It's just plain stupid and doesn't help the player. That's what I don't like about these recent Youtube video guides (besides the fact that 90% of them are just searching for clicks anyways).

However, there are people who really don't want to spend a lot of time on theorycrafting, and I don't have a problem helping them. ~15 years ago I bought, assembled, and configured dozens of computers for my friends. I loved to do this, they just wanted to use the PC and didn't care about the rest. It's the same with these threads "please help me": People ask for help, I like to help them, and I learn a lot by thinking about their char development. Winwin. Btw, there will always be threads that you don't like in the "recent posts" lists (for me it's every stream/video/giveaway thread).

Don't you get a little annoyed each time a "Help me upgrade" thread pops up when your gearing guide clearly has a section that helps push aspiring wizards in the right direction?

[Bagstone]

Jaetch, on 27 February 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:

Don't you get a little annoyed each time a "Help me upgrade" thread pops up when your gearing guide clearly has a section that helps push aspiring wizards in the right direction?

Mmh... no, not really. I mean, I'd appreciate if they took the time to read it - but despite the TL;DR section I know that a lot of people don't want to read that much text and like feedback tailored to their char specifically.

Besides, the guide was really just a dump of what was going through my head for quite a while. It wasn't really to kill all these threads. But I am actually thinking about adding a few subsections to the FAQ because recent threads are all the same (Chanto set, Zuni set, breakpoints, ...)

[irzerg]

GangusKahn, on 26 February 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

Ghost_Sanguis, on 26 February 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

Nothing against the guide writers themselves, but rather the people that request them. I mean, is it just me or have some people lost their ability to make their own decisions? I've been seeing a lot of this on this forum in particular, and I'm not sure about the other forums.

Ignoring the fact that it's funner to farm your own gear, what is the point in playing if you can't bring yourself to experiment with gear choices (the only thing we really can experiment with that has a negative consequence, losing gold)? We cannot screw up characters, and you can always get more gold/gear later if it's a bad choice.

Am I the only one who thinks this?

Why is it people are always so concerned at what other people are doing?  If you dont like the guides dont read them.  I like the guides, personally.  It allows me to learn more about the game and sometimes catch things I missed.

People complaint for the sake of complaining...Is like after reading a basic guide, and to read a similar guide that explain what the original poster's have said...From there, people start judging the repetativeness of guides and giving "Duhhhhh, isn't that common sense"...

If D3 wasn't nerf at all (pre 1.0.3), i think alot of people are still crying for help, plus, if it wasn't for "those" guide, i don't think many will ever clear Inferno...Just saying..

[maka]

irzerg, on 01 March 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

If D3 wasn't nerf at all (pre 1.0.3), i think alot of people are still crying for help, plus, if it wasn't for "those" guide, i don't think many will ever clear Inferno...Just saying..

So?
It took me a long time to clear Inferno, and if it wasn't for the nerf, it would've taken me an even longer time. So the stance I'm taking is against my own interests, but it doesn't matter, because that's how I think things should be.
Plus, Blizzard themselves said that it should take people a long time to clear it anyway, so it was "working as intended".
Granted the whole "you need Act 3 gear to clear Act 2" was stupid and horribly implemented, but that's a different story altogether.

Edited by maka, 02 March 2013 - 11:12 AM.

[ruksak]

maka, on 02 March 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

irzerg, on 01 March 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

If D3 wasn't nerf at all (pre 1.0.3), i think alot of people are still crying for help, plus, if it wasn't for "those" guide, i don't think many will ever clear Inferno...Just saying..

So?
It took me a long time to clear Inferno, and if it wasn't for the nerf, it would've taken me an even longer time. So the stance I'm taking is against my own interests, but it doesn't matter, because that's how I think things should be.
Plus, Blizzard themselves said that it should take people a long time to clear it anyway, so it was "working as intended".
Granted the whole "you need Act 3 gear to clear Act 2" was stupid and horribly implemented, but that's a different story altogether.

IMO Inferno should've been left as a monumental challenge. The change that I thought needed to be made was to make inferno-viable gear accessible in Hell mode. Players could've geared up for the "impossible" challenge ahead. Instead, they just hit the EZ button.

There seems to be a lingering desire by many to have some "impossible" mode re-implemented.

[m4st0d0n]

Ghost_Sanguis, on 26 February 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

We cannot screw up characters, and you can always get more gold/gear later if it's a bad choice.

Actually this is the core of the problem. Why do we have to farm (=waste our time) just to experiment? You and me, we might have plenty of time, but the other 99% of gamers do not.

Edited by m4st0d0n, 02 March 2013 - 04:26 PM.