353 replies to this topic

[maka]

^^Come on, man, seriously? You're gonna throw out that number, 12 million? Let's be real...

[overneathe]

12 million people own the game. What do you mean "let's be real"?

[Xenocow]

overneathe, on 09 February 2013 - 03:27 AM, said:

1000 people is enough to represent 12 million people?

A samplesize of 1000 people is enough to represent 10 million people with a margin of error of around ±3%
We got a samplesize of 8000 people, so the margin of error is even smaller.

Get familiar with Digital Metrics, and how rating in General works.

How do you think the Millions and Millions of People who dont play anymore would vote if you count them in ?

Edited by Xenocow, 09 February 2013 - 04:23 AM.

[overneathe]

Since you seem more familiar with the subject perhaps you can enlighten me. How do 1000 represent 12 million?

Xenocow, on 09 February 2013 - 04:19 AM, said:

How do you think the Millions and Millions of People who dont play anymore would vote if you count them in ?

Facts, right here.

[mic129]

Hiderius, on 07 February 2013 - 04:53 AM, said:

Blizzard is Unaware of Diablo 3's Downfall...

It cannot be denied that Diablo 3 got mixed reviews, and substantial negative feedback post-release. See for example very low 3.8/10 Metacritic user rating (7864 Ratings), and average user rating of 2.2 / 5 on Amazon (3,116 customer reviews).
Comparatively Blizzard's Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty got 8.1 / 10 (2150 User Ratings). That means SC2 has (much) better lead designers who understand the franchise and fanbase.

Diablo 3 sold record amounts, yet many fans are seriously disappointed. Now there's new Action RPGs such as Path of Exile which many D3 fans prefer to play instead of D3.

Example: how can the low-budget Path of Exile be able to directly compete against Diablo 3? Diablo 3 is supposed to be the Triple A, blockbuster and gold-standard of the Action RPG genre! So something is amiss.

If budget isn't the cause, then it must be the faulty game design of the lead developers (repetitive gameplay, narrow restrictive level-design, no open world to explore, semi-cartoony washed out graphics, mediocre storyline etc).

Due to so much disappointment among fans it's questionable whether Diablo 4 and 5 would sell as well if Blizzard continues down the current game-design path.

I'm a big fan of the Diablo Franchise so I'm concerned about the disappointing state of Diablo 3.

Blizzard appears to be unaware of Diablo 3's downfall and severly overestimates itself. So they won't really listen to fans nor take essential measures to improve Diablo 3 and redeem the Diablo franchise.

Blizzard can pretend that Diablo 3 is the best Action RPG to date, but many fans think otherwise and will be reluctant to buy another Diablo game.

The Demise of Blizzard

The downfall of Diablo 3 could potentially be the turning point where Blizzard Entertainment itself enters its own demise, unless they change course.

I hope Blizzard can restore the Diablo Franchise to its former glory, but time will tell.

haha, this stopped making sense when u said Path of exile is better than D3. Also i doubt they compete diablo at all.

- Repetitive gameplay ..... you are pretty hypocrite.
---> D3 : kill endless waves of monster to level up and get new skills and loots.
---> PoE : Kill endless waves of monster to level up and get new talent points.
Both repetitive.

-No open world to explore..... oh hai this isnt WoW and when you will have hours played in PoE youll notice you play in the same levels over and over again
Both not open.

-Semi-cartoony washed graphics.... oh hai PoE graphics are pretty dull to be honest.
+1 D3

-Mediocre storyline .... YOUR opinion.


Now you say you are dissappointed in Diablo 3. I can tell you why..... along with many D2 notalgics fanboi, you expected a diablo 2.5.
Oh hai old broken game mechanics doesnt work for this time.... non-evolving games is the real downfall.

Just accept it this isnt diablo 2.5 this is DIABLO 3.




''
Blizzard appears to be unaware of Diablo 3's downfall and severly overestimates itself. So they won't really listen to fans nor take essential measures to improve Diablo 3 and redeem the Diablo franchise.''

Oh right blizzard ignores EVERY suggestions right?....
... ppl asked for clones.... we got clones
... ppl asked for clone's epic drop ... we got it
... ppl asked for easier INFERNO mode .... we got a dumbed down difficulty
... ppl asked for a way to scale difficulty.... we got it
... ppl asked for more drops (legendary/rares) ... we got it
... ppl asked for more levels.... we got parangon levels
    I may even be forgeting many things

Also i wouldnt say that they arent doing a shit to repair the game..... to be honest you prolly never played D2 in its young days.... it was as bland as D3 was at the beggining (no runewords, no ladder), only creep slaying and hardcore mode.... or if you like dueling.


All is all, they arent even close to dieing...... just the usual nostalgic players ranting over D3... yet most of em are playing D3 intensively id bet on it.

[mic129]

overneathe, on 09 February 2013 - 04:37 AM, said:

Since you seem more familiar with the subject perhaps you can enlighten me. How do 1000 represent 12 million?

Xenocow, on 09 February 2013 - 04:19 AM, said:

How do you think the Millions and Millions of People who dont play anymore would vote if you count them in ?

Facts, right here.

facts? he pulled that millions of millions statistic outta his ass lol

[Xenocow]

overneathe, on 09 February 2013 - 04:37 AM, said:

Since you seem more familiar with the subject perhaps you can enlighten me. How do 1000 represent 12 million?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Digital+Metric
http://lmgtfy.com/?q...accurate Survey

Cant really be arsed to write a thesis here.

mic129, on 09 February 2013 - 04:47 AM, said:

facts? he pulled that millions of millions statistic outta his ass lol

So how many people are still playing Diablo3 (from the 12 million) my dear Troll Friend?

Just take a look at the Twitch Numbers.

Diablo3 : 953 Viewers.
PoE : 6204 Viewers.

Not bad for a 85k players (in Total) game lol

[shaggy]

Xenocow, on 09 February 2013 - 04:19 AM, said:

A samplesize of 1000 people is enough to represent 10 million people with a margin of error of around ±3%
We got a samplesize of 8000 people, so the margin of error is even smaller.

A RANDOM sample, yes.

It's highly debateable that the metacritic sample is random, nor is there any way to actually verify that it is at all representative of the entire D3 population.  When a company does a political poll they do everything in their power to make sure that sample represents the entire population on a large number of demographics.  If there are 38% of people in the US who are African-American, they try to get their sample as close to that as possible, for example.  There is NO reason to believe that the metacritic cross-section does that because they can't.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Sampling_bias

Metacritic is not a polling site.  They do not, statistically, collect data, therefore their margin of error is almost always significantly higher than, say, an Associated Press political poll (and even those political polls get as high as +/- 4-5% margin of error).  To think that a non-scientific sampling of votes would somehow have only a 3% margin of error is unreal.  That's not even touching the very obvious sampling bias for that particular set of data, which only serves to increase the margin of error even further.  Hell, Metacritic doesn't even verify that you own the game, which further taints the sample.  There's no guarantee that *any* of those ratings are actually from people who own the game - there could be 1000 0/10 ratings from some other company who just wants to shit up Blizzard's name.  Metacritic doesn't do anything to prevent that.

For most games this doesn't matter, because it's pretty obvious that people vote honestly and that the small number of trolls get averaged out as statistical outliers.  But, given the data set for Diablo 3, one would be crazy not to call the "authenticity" of that information into question.

Since you are a PoE fan (I play it too, but I don't love it as much as you do), just think what you'd say if you saw a 3.8 rating for PoE on metacritic.  You would obviously say "this game may not be for everyone, but it's not a 3.8."  You would say that, it's not perfect, but you wouldn't really believe anything much below a 7.0.  Why doesn't that hold true for D3?  A 3.8 indicates that the game is borderline unplayable or not even worth the time to install it - like that porno playing card game I linked earlier.  If you really think that D3 is on the same level as that porno card game, I can only suggest that you take a step back, put down the reefer, and talk to the psychologist about why daddy never hugged you when you were little.  The difference is stark.

The reality of the matter is that it's not cost-effective for a developer to make games much below 6.5 which is why you rarely see games rated below 6.5, or so.  In order to make it onto a CD and not get axed during the development process there has to be some merit to your game.

Also, of note, 3.8 is suspiciously close to 3.7 which would be an obvious jab at Error 37.  Aren't you seeing that this stuff is more than coincidence and adds up to people trolling?  We can discuss statistics til we're blue in the face, but the fact of the matter is that there are umpteen reasons to call into question the validity of the data, regardless of if it's a statistically-representative sample (which it's not).

You simply don't have a statistically-significant sample.  You have a survey of metacritic users.  Metacritic users are *not* representative of the whole D3 population.  It'd be like taking a poll of people from Philadelphia, seeing that Obama was up on Romney 72 to 28, and concluding that almost 3/4ths of Americans lean left.  Philadelphia is not representative of the entire USA no more than metacritic is representative of "all gamers."

Edited by shaggy, 09 February 2013 - 05:45 AM.

[overneathe]

Xenocow, on 09 February 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

overneathe, on 09 February 2013 - 04:37 AM, said:

Since you seem more familiar with the subject perhaps you can enlighten me. How do 1000 represent 12 million?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Digital+Metric
http://lmgtfy.com/?q...accurate Survey

Cant really be arsed to write a thesis here.

Too bad, it could've been more useful, cause I found this:

"First, if you are posting a link to your survey on blogs and Twitter feeds, it will not be representative of any target population, and no number of responses is going to make it so. The information will be interesting from a qualitative standpoint, but-since it is not a random sample-it is not quantitative. In this case, whether you get one hundred, one thousand or one million responses doesn't matter. The information is interesting to talk about and might be fine for illustrative purposes for a blog post or a webinar, but the findings will not be useful for decision making."

Really though, I understand almost nothing on metrics/statistics. So, you want to try that thesis now?

Xenocow, on 09 February 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

So how many people are still playing Diablo3 (from the 12 million) my dear Troll Friend?

Just take a look at the Twitch Numbers.

Diablo3 : 953 Viewers.
PoE : 6204 Viewers.

Not bad for a 85k players (in Total) game lol

A game in its third week versus a game in its 9th month. You sure showed me. Not to mention 5854 of these right now are watching Kripp. A guy that has 62k followers on Twitch. Gee, that's almost as much as PoE itself. But yeah, I highly doubt some of them are from his WoW/GW2/D3 streaming and are just following as they're fans of his personality and whatever he seems to play right now. I mean, all the other PoE streamers boast pretty much the same numbers right?

Come on man.

[Xenocow]

Without real Numbers delivered by Blizzard we know nothing, thats a fact.

What we know for a fact :

* Jay Wilson is gone and this isnt a good sign for a "popular" game when the Lead DEV steps down (fired or not).
* The official Forums is clustered with Flame / Troll Posts
* Blizzard openly wrote "Sorry for not delivering" two times, and even Morhaime apologized.
* The Friendlists are empty.
* The Public Games are empty.
* The Streamers moved on, playing different games.
* The Mood toward Diablo3 across other Games Chatchannels (not only PoE) is completly negative.
* Metacritics + Amazon Reviews negative.
* German "Gamestar" subsequently downrated the Game.
* Blizzard offered Refunds in Korea (was it Korea?) for a unfinished Product, and bad Online Service.

And you still believe 12 Million people are playing? dream on.

I am going to bed now.

[pterosmacktyl]

Xenocow, on 09 February 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

Without real Numbers delivered by Blizzard we know nothing, thats a fact.

What we know for a fact :

* Jay Wilson is gone and this isnt a good sign for a "popular" game when the Lead DEV steps down (fired or not).
* The official Forums is clustered with Flame / Troll Posts
* Blizzard openly wrote "Sorry for not delivering" two times, and even Morhaime apologized.
* The Friendlists are empty.
* The Public Games are empty.
* The Streamers moved on, playing different games.
* The Mood toward Diablo3 across other Games Chatchannels (not only PoE) is completly negative.
* Metacritics + Amazon Reviews negative.
* German "Gamestar" subsequently downrated the Game.
* Blizzard offered Refunds in Korea (was it Korea?) for a unfinished Product, and bad Online Service.

And you still believe 12 Million people are playing? dream on.

I am going to bed now.

I don't think anyone in this thread claimed that 12 million people are actively playing. As mentioned earlier, 12 millions copies total were sold. That statistic is pretty impressive and something you would imagine a company would like to announce.

[Nikdik]

TheRabidDeer, on 08 February 2013 - 03:52 AM, said:

Hiderius, on 07 February 2013 - 04:53 AM, said:

Look at the game now:

Good item droprates

LMAO!

The RNG system sucks right now.

Nice troll though, going against the norm for a laugh. Keep raging against the machine dude.

Edited by Nikdik, 09 February 2013 - 09:01 AM.

[Xenocow]

mic129, on 09 February 2013 - 04:47 AM, said:

facts? he pulled that millions of millions statistic outta his ass lol

pterosmacktyl, on 09 February 2013 - 06:31 AM, said:

I don't think anyone in this thread claimed that 12 million people are actively playing.

This Guy still believes it apperently.

overneathe, on 09 February 2013 - 05:23 AM, said:

A game in its third week versus a game in its 9th month.

Its in closed Beta since middle 2012, and played by quite a lot of people even then.
And tell you what, the game was in closed beta already milestones ahead in Terms of Depth + Quality.

Edited by Xenocow, 09 February 2013 - 01:58 PM.

[Lord_Jaroh]

IgnatiusReilly, on 08 February 2013 - 08:15 PM, said:

Can we really accept Metacritic as an accurate gauge of player satisfaction when we're taking about the opinions of 3 thousand players out of a total of 12 million?

No one else finds that kind of silly?

That's about 0.00025% of total players. Microscopic. I mean, you could say, "This game bummed me out. I don't like it." But to point to that tiny number of players and say, "Welp, there ya go, no one likes it." Hmmm!

When on the flipside people can point to metacritic and say "See?!!!  My game is the bestest evar!!!!  It has a good metacritic?!!!!"  Then yes, if you use it for one, you have to use it for the other.  Can we rely on the reviews of game publications that are "paid" to give good reviews of games?  Of course not.  Thus we have to find a middle ground somewhere, and it probably lies right in the average of everyone's votes...or the metacritic score as you will.

3.8 does sound a bit low in my eyes, though.  I would vote it as a 6 to a 6.5, a slightly above mediocre game.  It does what it does, albeit other games do it far better.

Quote

Quote

They got rid of Stamina, and introduced new "resources" that add nothing to the game.

Resources are awesome. You have to manage them, you have to balance your skill usage in an interesting way, it interacts dynamically with your builds, it gives you a feeling of power when you go from only casting Pillar of Light once in a while to all the damn time because you've gotten so much spirit regen, it gives each class a bit of uniqueness in how you manage their resources, and how it feels to manage that, and most importantly it is tactical. It's honestly one of the more interesting advancements this game has made.

I cannot fathom why anyone would prefer simple mana pot spam to this highly dynamic resource system.

I think you should play the game more Lord_Jaroh.

I have played the game quite enough to know that the new resources are arbitrary and pointless.  As it is, they could all be called "Mana", and each class could handle "Mana" differently and the gameplay would be unchanged for every character.  I am not a fan of arbitrary mechanics.  They are no different than Elemental damage on weapons, or melee weapons themselves.

Now, if they had given access to all resources for all characters, then there would be a point to them being different.  You could base each resource on a different stat, have skills that work off each resource for every character, and have an item hunt that revolves around getting the stat that works for your build and resource management choice.  That would be a far more interesting system, one that actually makes sense, and as well one that actually adds depth to the game.

[maka]

overneathe, on 09 February 2013 - 04:01 AM, said:

12 million people own the game. What do you mean "let's be real"?

I mean that trying to pass off that 12 million people actually played this game to an extent where they can really evaluate it is disingenuous at best.

[shaggy]

Lord_Jaroh, on 09 February 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

IgnatiusReilly, on 08 February 2013 - 08:15 PM, said:

Can we really accept Metacritic as an accurate gauge of player satisfaction when we're taking about the opinions of 3 thousand players out of a total of 12 million?

No one else finds that kind of silly?

That's about 0.00025% of total players. Microscopic. I mean, you could say, "This game bummed me out. I don't like it." But to point to that tiny number of players and say, "Welp, there ya go, no one likes it." Hmmm!

When on the flipside people can point to metacritic and say "See?!!!  My game is the bestest evar!!!!  It has a good metacritic?!!!!"  Then yes, if you use it for one, you have to use it for the other.  Can we rely on the reviews of game publications that are "paid" to give good reviews of games?  Of course not.  Thus we have to find a middle ground somewhere, and it probably lies right in the average of everyone's votes...or the metacritic score as you will.

3.8 does sound a bit low in my eyes, though.  I would vote it as a 6 to a 6.5, a slightly above mediocre game.  It does what it does, albeit other games do it far better.

You say why we can't rely on the "paid" peoples scores, but then you go on to point out exactly why they're more valid than the user scores in this case.

Grats.

maka, on 09 February 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

overneathe, on 09 February 2013 - 04:01 AM, said:

12 million people own the game. What do you mean "let's be real"?

I mean that trying to pass off that 12 million people actually played this game to an extent where they can really evaluate it is disingenuous at best.

It's far less disingenuous than trying to pass off a couple thousand 0/10 votes as anything other than trolling, though.  But... we're still arguing about why the metacritic user scores are complete bullshit, aren't we?  Because no one wants to admit that they're nothing more than a couple thousand people (who may not have even played D3) just looking to troll Blizzard.

So if we can pick at that point as disingenuous then why can't we pick at the metacritic data as completely and blatantly inaccurate?  Why?  Because Captain Statisticshas a hardon for proving how bad D3 is and posts "proof" of why metacritic scores are statistically-significant.. proof that actually disproves the validity of most online surveys... and then goes back to full-on trollmode?  Why should we tolerate such blatant lack of intelligence?

There is no validity to the metacritic user ratings in their current form.  At all.  The rest of it is a moot point.

Like I said - if you think D3 is comparable to that porno playing card game then you have really lost your perspective on what makes a game.

Edited by shaggy, 09 February 2013 - 03:11 PM.

[maka]

mic129, on 09 February 2013 - 04:46 AM, said:

- Repetitive gameplay ..... you are pretty hypocrite.
---> D3 : kill endless waves of monster to level up and get new skills and loots.
---> PoE : Kill endless waves of monster to level up and get new talent points.
Both repetitive.

You don't get new skills in D3. Or have you not reached 60 yet?

mic129, on 09 February 2013 - 04:46 AM, said:

-No open world to explore..... oh hai this isnt WoW and when you will have hours played in PoE youll notice you play in the same levels over and over again
Both not open.

Nope, PoE has an end-game map system. Random maps/dungeons, with modifiers that can make them harder but more rewarding.

mic129, on 09 February 2013 - 04:46 AM, said:

-Semi-cartoony washed graphics.... oh hai PoE graphics are pretty dull to be honest.
+1 D3

Again, showing your intellectual dishonesty.

mic129, on 09 February 2013 - 04:46 AM, said:

-Mediocre storyline .... YOUR opinion.

Most people that care's opinion. If you thought it was good, you must be 13 or younger.

mic129, on 09 February 2013 - 04:46 AM, said:

Now you say you are dissappointed in Diablo 3. I can tell you why..... along with many D2 notalgics fanboi, you expected a diablo 2.5.
Oh hai old broken game mechanics doesnt work for this time.... non-evolving games is the real downfall.

Just accept it this isnt diablo 2.5 this is DIABLO 3.

Yeah, this crazy notion that sequels should follow on the footsteps of their predecessors, keeping the things that work and fixing the ones that don't. Crazy people.....

mic129, on 09 February 2013 - 04:46 AM, said:

All is all, they arent even close to dieing...... just the usual nostalgic players ranting over D3... yet most of em are playing D3 intensively id bet on it.

Let's bet. I could use the money.

[zimira]

Xenocow, on 09 February 2013 - 02:15 AM, said:

shaggy, on 09 February 2013 - 12:10 AM, said:

D3 may be bad, but it's not 0/10 bad.  I have never played a game that was so bad that I'd rate it 0/10, and D3 is certainly not the worst game I've played.  So, yes, there's severe reason to question metacritic scores because it sure seems like a bunch of butthurt nerds trying to have their vengeance.

Valid point. But i can turn it around.
What about the people who voted 10/10...?
Is it a 10 in your Eyes ?

Why does your 10 counts more as a 0 of a so called "butthurt nerd" ?

In the end it equals out, doesnt matter what you vote really.
If the people are happy they vote high, if the people are angry they vote low.

So the 3.8 is very realistic, and shows there are more angry people who are not pleased with the game.

On the other hand the users that took their time to write a review, rated it 88/100 on the same site.

Since it's unlikely that either of those numbers came from a random selection of the buyers, perhaps all they show is that people that dislike a game is more likely to log on and down vote it and that fan boys are more likely to write a full review with a positive vote.

As far as Twitch goes, when Kripp switches to the next new game and PoE loses 4500/5000 does that make PoE a worthless game? I mean Kripp makes a living out of supplying new information and hints about hot games and now as PoE is closing in on release that is the hot game that people want to get tips about to get a leg up on competition for when its released.

[maka]

pterosmacktyl, on 09 February 2013 - 06:31 AM, said:

As mentioned earlier, 12 millions copies total were sold. That statistic is pretty impressive and something you would imagine a company would like to announce.

That's not even true. Loads of those were GIVEN away when people bought the WoW annual pass. It's so dishonest to release that number without any explanations.


@shaggy: I never said a word about the whole Metacritic thing. I don't even frequent that site, and don't usually give any credence to ratings in games, anyway. Basically: I don't care.

[shaggy]

maka, on 09 February 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

@shaggy: I never said a word about the whole Metacritic thing. I don't even frequent that site, and don't usually give any credence to ratings in games, anyway. Basically: I don't care.

I agree.  But this whole discussion is played off that initial concept.  I'd like to see a lot more people rallying around the cause, honestly, because it's totally obvious that those ratings were bullshit.  Having people troll us with these ratings, which clearly were a result of trolling, shouldn't be tolerated here.

We could have a much better discussion of the game if we dropped the animosity that comes as a result of the fact that some people are touting obviously-tainted data as something wrong with the series.  You and I (AH aside) seem to be able to talk about things... but in this thread I find myself wanting to slap you (particularly because you said that anyone who likes the story is 13... I don't like any of the Diablo stories, does that make me wrong, or 13?).  We're devolving to insults, ad homenim attacks, people calling the moderators trolls... all because this post sets the absolute wrong tone for disucssion.

We can, and have, had far better, and far more productive discussions on this forum when we leave the obvious trolling out.  When an entire thread is based heavily on a few people insisting that obvious trolling creates fact... there's no room for anything productive to come from it.  That's why I reported it when it was first posted.  It'd be better if shit like this were locked immediately and the user infracted for trolling and us people who are intelligent enough to tell the difference could get back to talking about the series we enjoy rather than ..... whatever this thread is.

I'm sure you feel the same way.