90 replies to this topic

[Nyarlathotep]

Quote

The difference that I gave as an example above is that Diablo 3 will sell more no matter the marketing because it's welcoming to the less dedicated players

Fixed that for you. And so I'm not getting misinterpreted here : less dedicated players means players who do not want to spend lots of time on the game, be it by obligation or own choice. I totally respect this kind of choice. The only thing I don't respect here, are the people in this group who expect and demand every single game to be tailored to THEM.

I totally understand if the majority of players (note how I acknowledge that you guys are not a minority) doesn't want to spend 10h in a row just researching info on the game they want to play before they even start playing it. Really, I do. And as well, I totally agree with all you guys saying "there must be games for everyone, not only for hardcore players".
But what about practising a bit what you preach then ? If there must be games for everyone and not only for the more hardcore players, there still must be games for them. How on earth dare you DEMAND that some game be dumbed down to the point where dedicated players won't find any interest in it anymore ? That's basically demanding that games be made ONLY for you, and not one single anymore for the hardcore players. Quite the total opposite of your whole argumentation...

Let me make a simple parallel with say... sports for example. At the beginning of each new season, anyone who wants to participate in the competitions MUST pay their license fee to the Athletism Federation (whatever it is named in your country). When has anyone heard of an Athlete complaining to the Athletism Federation that "well, you know... Marathon is 42km, that's much more than I can run. I've paid my license so I am ENTITLED to participate the competition. Since I can only run 20km, you guys MUST bring the Marathon down to 20km so that I can do it as well". Seriously ?? If you can only run 20km, well then you register in the 20km running competition and NOT the Marathon. End of the story.
Why is there this NEED for the less dedicated players to be able to achieve the same as the more dedicated ones ? What would be the point of the pro athletes practising 10h a day if anyone could get to the same result by only practising 1h a week and having the rules changed so it's enough ?
If you can only do Hell in D3... well then SO BE IT. Play more, get more skill/gear, then go to Inferno. Don't demand that Inferno gets dumbed down to the point you can do it even with the skill of a tetraplegic oyster. Be honest with yourself. If you don't have the level, either you work to get to it, or you just accept that this is your place. Don't ask for a lot of other folks to lose their interest only for you to keep yours because you are too much imbued of yourself that you can't accept that well... this is the level you can play with the skill you have.
WoW has suffered that, Diablo as well. I really pray the Gods that PoE doesn't and that the PoE developpers stay true to their word that was always : PoE is for DEDICATED players only. They won't cater to "mr anybody".

If you're part of that enormous group of people who want to finish a game with only playing it a few hours here and there, PLEASE DO NOT COME TO POE. And don't get me wrong : I'm not saying this to bash or anything. I'm really saying this from your own point of view : there should be games for everyone. You guys got Blizzard to change Diablo 3 specially for you. Please appreciate it, stay there and leave the more dedicated players the PoE they love : untouched and undumbed. And if you do come to PoE anyway, then accept that you might hit a wall at some point without feeling the need to demand that the developpers build a door in that wall specially for you while everyone else is working their ass off to learn how to climb it.

Sorry for Wall of Text, but I had to get this out. Again, I didn't mean anything as offensive in my post, just would like that when someone comes with nice principles, they are honest enough to apply it to themselves too, and not only to others and when it suits them.

[Xpire]

Nyarlathotep, on 07 February 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

Quote

The difference that I gave as an example above is that Diablo 3 will sell more no matter the marketing because it's welcoming to the less dedicated players

Fixed that for you. And so I'm not getting misinterpreted here : less dedicated players means players who do not want to spend lots of time on the game, be it by obligation or own choice. I totally respect this kind of choice. The only thing I don't respect here, are the people in this group who expect and demand every single game to be tailored to THEM.

I totally understand if the majority of players (note how I acknowledge that you guys are not a minority) doesn't want to spend 10h in a row just researching info on the game they want to play before they even start playing it. Really, I do. And as well, I totally agree with all you guys saying "there must be games for everyone, not only for hardcore players".
But what about practising a bit what you preach then ? If there must be games for everyone and not only for the more hardcore players, there still must be games for them. How on earth dare you DEMAND that some game be dumbed down to the point where dedicated players won't find any interest in it anymore ? That's basically demanding that games be made ONLY for you, and not one single anymore for the hardcore players. Quite the total opposite of your whole argumentation...

Let me make a simple parallel with say... sports for example. At the beginning of each new season, anyone who wants to participate in the competitions MUST pay their license fee to the Athletism Federation (whatever it is named in your country). When has anyone heard of an Athlete complaining to the Athletism Federation that "well, you know... Marathon is 42km, that's much more than I can run. I've paid my license so I am ENTITLED to participate the competition. Since I can only run 20km, you guys MUST bring the Marathon down to 20km so that I can do it as well". Seriously ?? If you can only run 20km, well then you register in the 20km running competition and NOT the Marathon. End of the story.
Why is there this NEED for the less dedicated players to be able to achieve the same as the more dedicated ones ? What would be the point of the pro athletes practising 10h a day if anyone could get to the same result by only practising 1h a week and having the rules changed so it's enough ?
If you can only do Hell in D3... well then SO BE IT. Play more, get more skill/gear, then go to Inferno. Don't demand that Inferno gets dumbed down to the point you can do it even with the skill of a tetraplegic oyster. Be honest with yourself. If you don't have the level, either you work to get to it, or you just accept that this is your place. Don't ask for a lot of other folks to lose their interest only for you to keep yours because you are too much imbued of yourself that you can't accept that well... this is the level you can play with the skill you have.
WoW has suffered that, Diablo as well. I really pray the Gods that PoE doesn't and that the PoE developpers stay true to their word that was always : PoE is for DEDICATED players only. They won't cater to "mr anybody".

If you're part of that enormous group of people who want to finish a game with only playing it a few hours here and there, PLEASE DO NOT COME TO POE. And don't get me wrong : I'm not saying this to bash or anything. I'm really saying this from your own point of view : there should be games for everyone. You guys got Blizzard to change Diablo 3 specially for you. Please appreciate it, stay there and leave the more dedicated players the PoE they love : untouched and undumbed. And if you do come to PoE anyway, then accept that you might hit a wall at some point without feeling the need to demand that the developpers build a door in that wall specially for you while everyone else is working their ass off to learn how to climb it.

Sorry for Wall of Text, but I had to get this out. Again, I didn't mean anything as offensive in my post, just would like that when someone comes with nice principles, they are honest enough to apply it to themselves too, and not only to others and when it suits them.

Best thing I've heard today. Thank you kind sir!

[Xenocow]

Xpire, on 07 February 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

Best thing I've heard today. Thank you kind sir!

Yepp, have to double that... great post Nyarlathotep

[maka]

overneathe, on 07 February 2013 - 04:29 AM, said:

maka, on 07 February 2013 - 04:23 AM, said:

No. Just...no. It will sell more because it has "Diablo" and "Blizzard" on the cover. It will sell more because it looks 'prettier'. Everything else is just you making stuff up to support your stance.
Plus, all that verbosity to talk about a game's "success"? As if that matters in this discussion. We're talking quality, not quantity.

Exactly.

overneathe said:

And of course, take that as an opinion. I can't say I know too much about game design. Just my philosophy.

Somehow I missed that last sentence of yours. Sorry about that.
I still disagree with you, though

[overneathe]

I'm sorry but I didn't see any argumentation against me personally. I absolutely agree with everything you said. Note that in all the time in which PoE started gaining attention and become one of the best RPGs on the market right now - I haven't said a bad word about it. The worst thing I said is it's not going to make as much money as Diablo 3 has and will never make its popularity. Is that a bad thing? No. Just sad for the developers. Also combat is not as fluid. Not fast. Fluid. It's a personal thing that I don't enjoy and not something I'll tell my friends "dude, the game is just bad, trust me, I tried it". If you like it, then by all means - play it!

I am sure as hell glad there are good games out there! I am a gamer and I love having to chose what to play in the genres I like and *shock* I'm super glad other people have that same choice! The more games of a genre out there the better the games!

It's pretty obvious to me that for some members I can sound like a biased jerk, because hey - I work for this site that covers Diablo 3 in its entirety and make arguments in defense of D3. But my arguments are not against PoE, they're against Diablo 3 being bad. And I'm doing this because players need to realize it's all opinions, but they state them as if they're facts. You can say "Sadly I've not enjoyed my time as much as would've liked in Diablo 3 because of this and that" and it's all fine! Really. But it's when people talk in the manner of "this game is shit and Jay made it bad and he should feel bad, all people with more than a brain cell moved to PoE long ago" is the nonsensical type of post to which I'm against and against which I argue.

So please, don't think that I don't appreciate PoE for what it is - a game made for a more dedicated crowd, which will certainly lead to a smaller audience but will grant a bigger personal success for them. Now. Read my post again and see how I've tried to balance things for both games and crowds.

Also what made you think I don't spend 10 hours a day researching the things I play?

It's all fine to have different opinions Maka.

[maka]

I said I still disagree with you because you said this:

overneathe, on 01 February 2013 - 01:15 AM, said:

The difference that I gave as an example above is that Diablo 3 will sell more no matter the marketing because it's welcoming to new players

and I don't agree. I think the three big reasons D3 is played by more people are the following (in no particular order): it says 'Diablo' on the cover; it says 'Blizzard' on the cover; it looks 'prettier'.

I wasn't disagreeing with your entire post, just this.

[overneathe]

Well I didn't say that's the only reason, but it's a major reason. Anyone can try it and win, but once the game starts getting harder (which is not a problem for experienced players) it's not so hard to make you stop playing and you have plenty of choice to experiment with your build. When that starts not helping as well you start going to forums. PoE completely misses the second step (experimentation) when it comes to new players because of its built in restrictions. You have to start anew or farm a lot in order to try even a single alternative.

[maka]

Every player in PoE is a «new player». I don't quite get what you mean by this. New to what? PoE? As I said, everyone is new to PoE. New to computers? New to games? What?
Every single one of us was once a «new player», yet we didn't need to be coddled, we just played the games and understood them. There were no 'tutorials', or 'forums', or 'build guides' when I was playing D1 and D2 (and other RPG's), I just played the game, and after a while (if you take the trouble to THINK about things) you start understanding how things work.
What is this mythical creature called «The New Player» ?

Edited by maka, 07 February 2013 - 10:18 PM.

[overneathe]

New to RPGs and/or gaming.

We didn't need to be coddled because most of us started with the simplest games like Super Mario and while the gaming industry evolved we evolved with it. I myself started on the Atari. Trust me, I didn't need guides or tutorials to know to press a single button and tilt the joystick right to jump over a puddle. That encompassed the entire game.

Some players that have joined after, say, the year 2000 might not immediately find some games that actually navigate them into what to do and how to be successful at said game (apart from actions or arcades). Some of them have struggled and are now successful normal gamers, some didn't and think games are a waste of time and/or not worth it. And now we're past 2010 and people are actually angry that some games might actually offer a learning curve instead of being presented in a "stair type" curve where you just have to figure it out before you can start enjoying it, then fail and start learning anew to again start enjoying it (possibly even more).

Just because you've played RPGs for the last 15 years and know the genre inside out doesn't mean new players will have the time and/or patience to devour every detail out there. When people like you and me enter a new RPG everything is immediately familiar - health orb/resource orb, skill slots, skill trees, every type of potion imaginable, mob diversity and how to handle them, stat sheets, item stats etc, etc. You really think it's bad to actually let players be introduced to these principles of the genre before you start making them take decisions on things that would last them for tens or hundreds of hours?

And when you say "Every player in PoE is a «new player»." it's just so wrong. We are the old gamers. We're pretty much built to do this. The mechanics I described earlier are engraved into our brains. That goes for almost all people that went to PoE because it's harder to play. Because they're more dedicated than new players, because new players don't even know the basics of RPG games. And Diablo is a perfect game for new players. You can progress plenty without trying to figure out too much, but to be successful at the end you'll have to start mastering the game.

Before someone comes in and says "no, you can master the game without even using your brain"... just don't use this kind of trolling.  You know very well that's wrong. And please accept that I am indeed agreeing PoE is harder. That is its primary feature after all.

[maka]

I'm not "angry". But in some game mechanics, you can't have it both "easily accessible to new gamers" and "deep and complex", you have to choose. And when the choice is for the former, the game gets worse (for me).
I guess I just don't see why the game has to be easily accessible to people that are new to videogames. Like you said, we played simpler games before we played complex ones. There are plenty of simple games out there today.
Unless your answer  is "to boost sales". Then I have no rebuttal.

I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree. Which is all right.

[overneathe]

Of course it's alright.


And I was simply generalizing when I said people are angry. It's not pointed out towards anyone in particular. Just the general attitude people have over FB, YT, Bnet, etc.