39 replies to this topic

[Zuchi]

Temsen, on 25 January 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:

Actually, I'll probably keep blinding flash, it's still a nice defensive utility and it+mantra is probably the best damage boost you can get for that low spirit cost.

Still, that "nerf" is pretty annoying, monks weren't exactly the highest dps class even with the snapshotting (excluding the extreme gear swapping) and buffing a spirit spender that costs half your spirit doesn't exactly make me want to use it more..

Currently with Blinding Flash I can snapshot around 205k dps with my gear and 133k constant DPS self buffed. DR[Foresight] + Combination Strike instead of Blind I can snapshot 172k DPS and 172k constant DPS self buffed. DR+Foresight has its utility as well, I especially like the utility it provides for kiting mobs (can't really kite with FoT+TC as you keep teleporting to mobs), I like the utility to keep SW up by breaking tables/chairs/columns/ladders cuz of the long reach when there's no mobs to hit (can't really teleport to these objects as they're not targettable so SW breaks them before you can reach it with FoT), also you can DPS mobs from behind a wall (if there's Waller mobs) with Deadly reach too. So defensive + utility it provides is debatable, but in my opinion DR is better. In terms of spirit cost, DR Foresight + Combination Strike costs 0 spirit. And with no snapshotting, I'll prefer to deal 40k more dps constantly than have big boost for only 3 seconds every 20 seconds and dealing 40k less dps for all other times.

Edited by Zuchi, 28 January 2013 - 11:25 AM.

[Windsurfer21]

I was wondering if the increased damage from WoL would be better then the 4 sec Bliding Flash without the snapshot.

[Rhye]

mikehardez, on 25 January 2013 - 12:31 AM, said:

Zuchi, on 24 January 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

I'll probably go back to my old build with combination strike and 2 spirit regenerators (DR+Foresight for buff).

I might consider Cyclone Strike with the reduced spirit cost rune though.

Yeah, I was thinking something like this might become the new optimal dual-wield build:

http://us.battle.net...gVSk!TUg!acYYca

With Exploding Palm being buffed from 30% to 50% of mob's max health it seems strictly better than say, BoH: Blazing Wrath.

Why Deadly Reach - Foresight? Way of a Hundred Fists - Blazing Fists is a much better choice. It will net you a lot more spirit (higher att speed) and less down time (due to the run speed increase). Having more spirit is very important since we will be using Exploding Palm all the time.

Btw, I can't figure out why they buffed our best skill.. Oh well. Thanks for 50% Exploding Palm I thought 30% was more than enough...

[Zuchi]

Rhye, on 30 January 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

mikehardez, on 25 January 2013 - 12:31 AM, said:

Zuchi, on 24 January 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

I'll probably go back to my old build with combination strike and 2 spirit regenerators (DR+Foresight for buff).

I might consider Cyclone Strike with the reduced spirit cost rune though.

Yeah, I was thinking something like this might become the new optimal dual-wield build:

http://us.battle.net...gVSk!TUg!acYYca

With Exploding Palm being buffed from 30% to 50% of mob's max health it seems strictly better than say, BoH: Blazing Wrath.

Why Deadly Reach - Foresight? Way of a Hundred Fists - Blazing Fists is a much better choice. It will net you a lot more spirit (higher att speed) and less down time (due to the run speed increase). Having more spirit is very important since we will be using Exploding Palm all the time.

Btw, I can't figure out why they buffed our best skill.. Oh well. Thanks for 50% Exploding Palm I thought 30% was more than enough...

Can you keep the WotHF 3 sec buff with Fists of Thunder? Deadly Reach's buff lasts 30 seconds that's why. The above build focuses on FoT+Thunderclap as the main attack, the other spirit generator is only there for buffing and/or utility.

[Diavolo222]

Blazing Fists is a lot better than forsight in higher monster power , ull have time to refresh BF and it will give you more spirit and more cyclone procs.Forsight I find is good for lower monster power as u just need to refresh it and then forget about it for 30 sec.

[Rhye]

Zuchi, on 30 January 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

Rhye, on 30 January 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

mikehardez, on 25 January 2013 - 12:31 AM, said:

Zuchi, on 24 January 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

I'll probably go back to my old build with combination strike and 2 spirit regenerators (DR+Foresight for buff).

I might consider Cyclone Strike with the reduced spirit cost rune though.

Yeah, I was thinking something like this might become the new optimal dual-wield build:

http://us.battle.net...gVSk!TUg!acYYca

With Exploding Palm being buffed from 30% to 50% of mob's max health it seems strictly better than say, BoH: Blazing Wrath.

Why Deadly Reach - Foresight? Way of a Hundred Fists - Blazing Fists is a much better choice. It will net you a lot more spirit (higher att speed) and less down time (due to the run speed increase). Having more spirit is very important since we will be using Exploding Palm all the time.

Btw, I can't figure out why they buffed our best skill.. Oh well. Thanks for 50% Exploding Palm I thought 30% was more than enough...

Can you keep the WotHF 3 sec buff with Fists of Thunder? Deadly Reach's buff lasts 30 seconds that's why. The above build focuses on FoT+Thunderclap as the main attack, the other spirit generator is only there for buffing and/or utility.

Are you referring to the extra 8% from Combination Strike? It lasts for 30 seconds even though the tooltip says 3 sec (as long as you continue with FoT which you ofc will). And WoaHF 5stack is refreshed every 5th second to keep it up all the time, yes.

And ofc, FoT + Thunderclap is the main attack. Just one click on WoaHF will refresh the stacks, so you can continue to nuke with FoT. With high att. speed you hit 3 times with WoaHF and get 5 stacks in just 1 sec. Refreshing it is even faster.

[mikehardez]

Rhye, on 30 January 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

Why Deadly Reach - Foresight? Way of a Hundred Fists - Blazing Fists is a much better choice. It will net you a lot more spirit (higher att speed) and less down time (due to the run speed increase). Having more spirit is very important since we will be using Exploding Palm all the time.

Btw, I can't figure out why they buffed our best skill.. Oh well. Thanks for 50% Exploding Palm I thought 30% was more than enough...

While WotHF: Blazing Fists is definitely the more interesting choice, I'm not sure it's really better than DR: Foresight.

Sheet numbers on my particular character show Foresight to be superior (albeit slightly) to Blazing Fists from a DPS standpoint. While 15% extra movespeed at 3 stacks is certainly attractive, the buff is most likely to expire when it would be the most valuable; running through dead zones without mobs. Although the tooltip states that you gain stacks on crits, you can refresh your stacks by punching destructible objects (apparently they can be critically hit). But unlike with Thunderclap (with SW), you have to stop movement to refresh your BF stacks, which makes the the extra movespeed the ability provides largely theoretical (I think you'd be hard pressed to get it to perform even as well as Fleet Footed).

Moreover, the percentage of your time spent in transit compared to time spent in combat is inversely proportional to MP level. In other words, movespeed is devalued when most of your time is spent in combat. With the 1.07 MP changes, I suspect running as quickly as possible through MP0 will no longer be ideal for most characters.

The final nail in the coffin for Blazing Fists is that to reap its bonuses, you have to use Thunderclap less. I'd be happy to see evidence to the contrary, but I can't think of any situation where Blazing Fists outperforms Thunderclap. Because you only need to really use Foresight every 30 seconds to see the full benefit, this means you get to spend nearly all your time Thunderclapping. And to add insult to injury, Foresight is basically "fire and forget", making it both easier to use and technically superior.

On the bright side, Exploding Palm is going to be amazing

[Rhye]

mikehardez, on 31 January 2013 - 06:20 AM, said:

Rhye, on 30 January 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

Why Deadly Reach - Foresight? Way of a Hundred Fists - Blazing Fists is a much better choice. It will net you a lot more spirit (higher att speed) and less down time (due to the run speed increase). Having more spirit is very important since we will be using Exploding Palm all the time.

Btw, I can't figure out why they buffed our best skill.. Oh well. Thanks for 50% Exploding Palm I thought 30% was more than enough...

While WotHF: Blazing Fists is definitely the more interesting choice, I'm not sure it's really better than DR: Foresight.

Sheet numbers on my particular character show Foresight to be superior (albeit slightly) to Blazing Fists from a DPS standpoint. While 15% extra movespeed at 3 stacks is certainly attractive, the buff is most likely to expire when it would be the most valuable; running through dead zones without mobs. Although the tooltip states that you gain stacks on crits, you can refresh your stacks by punching destructible objects (apparently they can be critically hit). But unlike with Thunderclap (with SW), you have to stop movement to refresh your BF stacks, which makes the the extra movespeed the ability provides largely theoretical (I think you'd be hard pressed to get it to perform even as well as Fleet Footed).

Moreover, the percentage of your time spent in transit compared to time spent in combat is inversely proportional to MP level. In other words, movespeed is devalued when most of your time is spent in combat. With the 1.07 MP changes, I suspect running as quickly as possible through MP0 will no longer be ideal for most characters.

The final nail in the coffin for Blazing Fists is that to reap its bonuses, you have to use Thunderclap less. I'd be happy to see evidence to the contrary, but I can't think of any situation where Blazing Fists outperforms Thunderclap. Because you only need to really use Foresight every 30 seconds to see the full benefit, this means you get to spend nearly all your time Thunderclapping. And to add insult to injury, Foresight is basically "fire and forget", making it both easier to use and technically superior.

On the bright side, Exploding Palm is going to be amazing

You got some good points there my friend, but I still feel you overlook a few things. We have to spend more time refreshing BF, compared to DR. And yes, Thunderclap IS the best DPS skill (out of our spirit generators) as far as I know. But the extra spirit we generate from BF will net us so much spirit. I have tons of attack speed on my gear, but I still feel (when testing DR) that I'm waiting on spirit to be able to keep Overawe up (48% bonus) and spam all the Exploding Palms I want.

But I think it's a matter of finding the setup you like. BF can be a pain to refresh all the time. DR on the other hand is easier to live with in that respect. If only they could give DR a timer like they give BF stacks... Oh well.

Another good reason as to why BF is superior is the fact that most top geared MP10 farming monks use that build (the one I'm using). I'm not going to act like a fanboy here, but I like to think they know what they are talking about. Just take a look at Invis when he streams. He talks about his build a lot and it makes sense to me.

Btw: when doing ubers, I use 3 spirit generators. BF, Thunderclap and DR. The dps. Oh lord, the numbers! Gotta love it. But I love Exploding Palm more

Edited by Rhye, 31 January 2013 - 07:51 AM.

[Chmurnik]

• Cyclones generated by Sweeping Wind should now travel roughly in the same direction that the player is facing

How it will affect TR Build ? what do u guys think , it will help or not ? i worry about that cuz now even if cyclons spawn randomly they usualy go behind me killing mobs i left.

[Rhye]

Chmurnik, on 31 January 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

• Cyclones generated by Sweeping Wind should now travel roughly in the same direction that the player is facing

How it will affect TR Build ? what do u guys think , it will help or not ? i worry about that cuz now even if cyclons spawn randomly they usualy go behind me killing mobs i left.

Not sure why you bring that up here, but I'll answer anyways.

When running TR you will move so fast it wont be much of a difference. The tornadoes won't move faster than you, so there is no way they will be less effective.

Having said that, Cyclone is not the best alternative when doing TR. Firestorm is much better since it has a much larger radius. This is something I have tested for hours and I used it for most of my Paragon levling. On MP 0-2.

This is something copied from thisguide on TR.

Through my testing, I have found that if you have ~<42% chance to crit with Tempest Rush, Firestorm will yield better xp/hr than Cyclone on average.


Hope it helps.

[mikehardez]

Rhye, on 31 January 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

Having said that, Cyclone is not the best alternative when doing TR. Firestorm is much better since it has a much larger radius. This is something I have tested for hours and I used it for most of my Paragon levling. On MP 0-2.

I strongly agree with this conclusion. Through personal testing I've found Cyclone to be completely underwhelming in TR builds. The proc coefficient on TR is abysmal which results in very few cyclones being produced, even with decent crit chance. If you need some more spirit in a TR build, go with Inner Storm. Otherwise, I consider Firestorm essentially the only other choice.

If a significant number of mobs are left standing after you TR through them with Firestorm, it's a DPS issue; Cyclones won't fix that regardless of which direction they travel.

[Polrayne]

So don't flame me for this....

I've experiemented with Exploding Palm on the PTR and I really don't see it helping.  And the main reason why is that very, very rarely is something that I mark with Exploding Palm, near to other mobs when they die and it explodes.  Now I freely admit that I use an Echoing Fury, so most of the time my target likes to go for a walk every few seconds.  However, I've spammed it on mobs around me and I just don't see things blowing up.

I did run with this build http://eu.battle.net...eYSk!WUX!abbcca  which essentially uses BoH for the constant up of 15% extra damage and Wall of Light-Empowered Wave.  With the buffed dps of Wall of Light and the lower spirit cost, I can spam 3 of these on top of elite packs and or larger clumps of mobs and they all instantly die.  This is the effect that I expected from Exploding Palm and I just don't see it.  I drop stuff, way, way faster with Wall of Light than any other ability I've used.  I know that the buff to Exploding Palm makes it seem amazing - but mechanically, it doesn't seem to near have the effect that Wall of Light does.

So those of you that don't use an Echoing Fury - do you find Exploding Palm that beneficial and have you tried Wall of Light on the PTR?

[Chmurnik]

Polrayne, on 03 February 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

So don't flame me for this....

I've experiemented with Exploding Palm on the PTR and I really don't see it helping.  And the main reason why is that very, very rarely is something that I mark with Exploding Palm, near to other mobs when they die and it explodes.  Now I freely admit that I use an Echoing Fury, so most of the time my target likes to go for a walk every few seconds.  However, I've spammed it on mobs around me and I just don't see things blowing up.

I did run with this build http://eu.battle.net...eYSk!WUX!abbcca  which essentially uses BoH for the constant up of 15% extra damage and Wall of Light-Empowered Wave.  With the buffed dps of Wall of Light and the lower spirit cost, I can spam 3 of these on top of elite packs and or larger clumps of mobs and they all instantly die.  This is the effect that I expected from Exploding Palm and I just don't see it.  I drop stuff, way, way faster with Wall of Light than any other ability I've used.  I know that the buff to Exploding Palm makes it seem amazing - but mechanically, it doesn't seem to near have the effect that Wall of Light does.

So those of you that don't use an Echoing Fury - do you find Exploding Palm that beneficial and have you tried Wall of Light on the PTR?

On what MP  you were testing this , cuz Exploding Palm is priceless for MP 8-10 now , with 1.07 changes it will be outstanding. I think it will allow monks to be able to farm highest mp fastest. Mark 2 mobs in group = BOOOM , every thing die

[Polrayne]

I was on MP6.  I didn't go any higher, because at 6 is where I feel with my current dps that I drop stuff "fast enough" to progress the rest of the way to 100.

I will take a look at EP again, but, I still feel like it doesn't do damage in a large enough area to hit anything.

[Rhye]

Polrayne, on 03 February 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

So don't flame me for this....

I've experiemented with Exploding Palm on the PTR and I really don't see it helping.  And the main reason why is that very, very rarely is something that I mark with Exploding Palm, near to other mobs when they die and it explodes.  Now I freely admit that I use an Echoing Fury, so most of the time my target likes to go for a walk every few seconds.  However, I've spammed it on mobs around me and I just don't see things blowing up.

I did run with this build http://eu.battle.net...eYSk!WUX!abbcca  which essentially uses BoH for the constant up of 15% extra damage and Wall of Light-Empowered Wave.  With the buffed dps of Wall of Light and the lower spirit cost, I can spam 3 of these on top of elite packs and or larger clumps of mobs and they all instantly die.  This is the effect that I expected from Exploding Palm and I just don't see it.  I drop stuff, way, way faster with Wall of Light than any other ability I've used.  I know that the buff to Exploding Palm makes it seem amazing - but mechanically, it doesn't seem to near have the effect that Wall of Light does.

So those of you that don't use an Echoing Fury - do you find Exploding Palm that beneficial and have you tried Wall of Light on the PTR?

I have.

On live I feel Exploding Palm is the best skill we have. Buffing it from 30 to 50% will only make it overpowered. I like that

When I used Echoing Fury I did NOT use Exploding Palm simply because the fear ruined the whole thing. If you use EF, then Exploding Palm might be something to stay clear of. I spent 1b on new weapons just to get rid of my EF to be able to use Exploding Palm, so I may be a bit biased.

And I think Wall of Light is much better when using two-handed weapons. Well, ofc it is, but on MP10 (what I play 100% of the time) 30-50% corpse explosion vs X amount of wep dmg always favors the % based life loss.

It all comes down to what you enjoy playing, so why not use Wall of Light if that is something you enjoy?

[metalsvinet]

Have any of you tried exploding palm with a twohander setup? And at what mp level does it really start to shine?

[Polrayne]

Rhye, on 05 February 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

I have.

On live I feel Exploding Palm is the best skill we have. Buffing it from 30 to 50% will only make it overpowered. I like that

When I used Echoing Fury I did NOT use Exploding Palm simply because the fear ruined the whole thing. If you use EF, then Exploding Palm might be something to stay clear of. I spent 1b on new weapons just to get rid of my EF to be able to use Exploding Palm, so I may be a bit biased.

And I think Wall of Light is much better when using two-handed weapons. Well, ofc it is, but on MP10 (what I play 100% of the time) 30-50% corpse explosion vs X amount of wep dmg always favors the % based life loss.

It all comes down to what you enjoy playing, so why not use Wall of Light if that is something you enjoy?

I agree that the bane of my existance is going to be that fear proc on the Echoing Fury.  It is sometimes, situtionally beneficial when I'm dealing with packs.  To have one run away from the desecration, or plague that they continually all cast is helpful.  And with the short tele from Thunderclap, i've made it work.  

And to clarify - I found the Echoing Fury and just considered it my RNG destiny that I have to use it

However - help me out with actual gameplay of Exploding Palm.  You've got four mobs around you and at mp10 they aren't going to drop quickly (I would assume) so you mark up one of them with EP and when they are at low life, you plan or hope that they are near to the others and then the explosion takes the rest out?

What I don't get is the other three mobs have probably lost maybe 25% of their health while standing around you from SW and the Cyclones.  So that 50% hit is great, but again - situationally - you are getting wailed on by four mobs, while you focus fire down one of them so that it can do your dps for you, all at once and only once to the rest that are near to it.  You still have to go after the others and single target another down.

With Wall of Light, I was able to essentially drop all four mobs at roughly the same time, because of how far and wide the dps effect goes.  Exploding Palm's radius seems to be very, very small.

I'm not laboring on about this to change people's minds about Wall of Light- as you said, if I have fun with it, than that's the way to play.  I'm mainly curious that I'm not using Exploding Palm in the right way and my Echoing Fury is causing too many issues.

Because realistically if you can use it on mp10 and have fun - than its got to be worth its salt.  Or dps, rather

edit: because tired fingers make for great typos.

Edited by Polrayne, 05 February 2013 - 03:57 PM.

[Rhye]

Polrayne, on 05 February 2013 - 03:53 PM, said:

Rhye, on 05 February 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

I have.

On live I feel Exploding Palm is the best skill we have. Buffing it from 30 to 50% will only make it overpowered. I like that

When I used Echoing Fury I did NOT use Exploding Palm simply because the fear ruined the whole thing. If you use EF, then Exploding Palm might be something to stay clear of. I spent 1b on new weapons just to get rid of my EF to be able to use Exploding Palm, so I may be a bit biased.

And I think Wall of Light is much better when using two-handed weapons. Well, ofc it is, but on MP10 (what I play 100% of the time) 30-50% corpse explosion vs X amount of wep dmg always favors the % based life loss.

It all comes down to what you enjoy playing, so why not use Wall of Light if that is something you enjoy?

I agree that the bane of my existance is going to be that fear proc on the Echoing Fury.  It is sometimes, situtionally beneficial when I'm dealing with packs.  To have one run away from the desecration, or plague that they continually all cast is helpful.  And with the short tele from Thunderclap, i've made it work.  

And to clarify - I found the Echoing Fury and just considered it my RNG destiny that I have to use it

However - help me out with actual gameplay of Exploding Palm.  You've got four mobs around you and at mp10 they aren't going to drop quickly (I would assume) so you mark up one of them with EP and when they are at low life, you plan or hope that they are near to the others and then the explosion takes the rest out?

What I don't get is the other three mobs have probably lost maybe 25% of their health while standing around you from SW and the Cyclones.  So that 50% hit is great, but again - situationally - you are getting wailed on by four mobs, while you focus fire down one of them so that it can do your dps for you, all at once and only once to the rest that are near to it.  You still have to go after the others and single target another down.

With Wall of Light, I was able to essentially drop all four mobs at roughly the same time, because of how far and wide the dps effect goes.  Exploding Palm's radius seems to be very, very small.

I'm not laboring on about this to change people's minds about Wall of Light- as you said, if I have fun with it, than that's the way to play.  I'm mainly curious that I'm not using Exploding Palm in the right way and my Echoing Fury is causing too many issues.

Because realistically if you can use it on mp10 and have fun - than its got to be worth its salt.  Or dps, rather

edit: because tired fingers make for great typos.

I'm gonna stick to talking about elite/champion packs since trash is...well trash (I use EP on them too, but that's just random spamming and it all goes boom. Sometimes I won't use EP since mobs die in 1-2 hits).

Elite packs (the blue ones)
Melee: these are the best packs to see how good EP can be. They all gather around me (more is always better) and I nuke 1 target. I try to apply EP as soon as possible for the 12% dmg debuff on target. I refresh if I can't nuke it down in the time EP is up. When it explodes, the other targets are on 50% or less (since they take an additional 48% dmg from Overawe that is up 99% of the time). I then apply another EP on the elite with the lowest HP and a few sec later they are both dead. I have dealt dmg enough to kill 1.5 elites, but EP helped me kill 3-4. If you see what I mean?

Another thing to try, is to apply EP on an elite you aren't nuking down so that it will take 12% extra dmg from the explosion when your main target goes down. When you master EP use, this will become your bread and butter. Using EF however will render all of this hopeless.

Ranged:
This gets a big more tricky. I usually mark one target with EP nuke it down and if there are other targets nearby: great. If not I just kill them one by one. Wall of Light won't be any better since the mobs can be spread all over the place anyways.

Elite packs (yellow boss, white minions)
Melee
I mark a minion with EP, nuke it down (try to apply EP on a nearby minion just before the explosion) and repeat until the boss is dead. It usually takes 2 EP to get a pack down leaving the yellow boss at 40% or so and all the minions are dead. Easy packs.

Ranged
On these I just mark the yellow boss with EP and nuke it down. Ranged mobs are so fragile that it doesn't matter much. The 12% dmg buff from Flesh is Weak makes for a quick fight.

You said something about mobs not dropping quick on MP10. Well, they do. I wouldn't play MP10 if it wasn't the most efficient way to farm for me. But I think I'll illustrate how EP is used and how fast it kills by sending you to twitch. Here is a monk (a bit more dps compared to me, but almost identical in play style and farming speed. I have timed it and he can finish an act3 run 1 min faster than me).

1h 11m into the clip he is done talking and will start farming
http://www.twitch.tv...suk/b/364249690

Hope I helped. If not, feel free to join me for a game so I can show you how I use EP. If you by any chance have a lvl 60 on EU.

And just so I've mentioned it: I'm using Serenity now because I was boosting ppl for uberbosses on MP10 last night. I will change back to EP as soon as I start farming MP10 solo again

Edited by Rhye, 06 February 2013 - 12:34 PM.

[Polrayne]

I love watching INVIS play - its a glimpse into the world of dps that I hope I have soon

Thank you for the description of the gameplay for using EP - its pretty much what I imagined trying to do.  I still feel though that I'm spending more time making sure that mobs are targeted and marked with EP, rather than just focusing on dpsing the whole group.  But that's also because I'm chasing too much due to the fear proc of my Echoing Fury.

I'd love to run a game with you - but I'm state-side

Thanks again for the advice!

[Neooo]

Just use the combination strike build that most of high end players are doing and you won't feel a thing about nerf . It's a NERF about those monks who ran with 30k dps and buff them self with skorn and go 300k dps sweeping wind...