8 replies to this topic

[Chriss007]

Way to often do i hear or read that ppl says, dont do it like that, its not the most effecient way.

Eventhough good improvements have been made the game still has some major flaws


I really like Monster Power,  it helped a lot, since it made it possible to farm other acts then just act 3.
But if u wanne be effecient, u are effectively still confined to a small number of routes in act 3

Its all about killing as many monster u can, as fast as u can,  so most ppl farm on low MP to maximice their  profits, both XP-wise and loot-wise.

If u like that playingstyle, then i guess its all just fine for u, but for ppl like me, that like to fight enemies that dont die from 1 hit then its far from optimal

So in that regard theres som good stuff comming in 1.07 with the changes to the XP bonus pr MP level.
But think the bonuses are too low to really matter.  I think they should be a litte higher and more in line the increased HP of the monsters.
Lets take MP6 for an example:
Monsters have around 9times more HP then on MP0, but then after 1.07 u still only gain around 3 times more XP.
I would like it to be more like 5 times,  bumping the XP bonus from the current 215% to 400%.
I wouldnt even mind if they scaled equally, so 9 times more HP would equal 9 times more exp, or on MP10 where 35times more HP would equal 35 times more XP, but that would probably be too much.

But why then, arent they also increasing drop rates or MF on higher MP?,  since u still get a lot more items from farming as fast as possible on lower MP's.
Again, it probably shouldnt scale euqally, but it could definatly use an increase, so that ppl like me can farm on MP 5-6-7-8 or whatever they like, and still be as effecient, or close to it, as the low MP speed farmers.

Blizz also said that with MP they wanted to give players the oppertunity to find the MP level that suited them and their playstyle best. But why should players like that then be "punished" with less XP and fewer loot drops?

I would love to go farm om higher MP like 8-9-10 if i would still get roughly the same rewards for my time spent!
That way i could go farm on MP 9 or 10 if i was in the mood for a challenge, or go down to MP 0-2 if i just wanted to cruise ahead and not have to worry about anything.

But is it just me, or are others feeling the same way?

Edited by Chriss007, 16 January 2013 - 04:03 PM.

[Zera]

cause if u buff rewards for mp doing sub 5 monster levels would mean u nerfed ur farming on lower mps and u can't do that unleas you have bad gear which is essentialy what they wanted to prevent (aka the higher mp u farm on and the better gear u have the better it becomes meaning u need to upgrade mp as soon as u have the gear for it)

just as an edit I have no problem with them making it more rewarding for people who play the game in on a harder level but that wasn't their intentions

Edited by Zera, 16 January 2013 - 05:22 PM.

[martysuchy]

Zera, on 16 January 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

cause if u buff rewards for mp doing sub 5 monster levels would mean u nerfed ur farming on lower mps and u can't do that unleas you have bad gear which is essentialy what they wanted to prevent (aka the higher mp u farm on and the better gear u have the better it becomes meaning u need to upgrade mp as soon as u have the gear for it)

+1

thats it, thats all

Edited by martysuchy, 16 January 2013 - 04:49 PM.

[Jalatiphra]

Assume we have averaged out xp and loot on all MPs:

if you have say 100k dps  and kill everything on mp0 with one hit you would like need 35 hits on mp10 - concidering mobs have 35times more life.
this character would benefit from the 35 times xp bonus as well 35 times higher chances of getting loot.
Therefore he would effectively  lvl just as fast on mp 10  as on mp1 and gain the same loot.

BUT:
Now comes a character with 1million dps thus kills mobs on mp10 10 times as fast as the other caracter.
He would gain 10 times more xp on mp10 as on mp1.
thats a pretty great difference.
----
This would make the game pretty unapealing to casual gamers since they feel left behind, because they lack the time to find appropriate gear to get higher  killspeeds.

But casuals are the major part of the playerbase, so MPs are balanced in a way that hardcore gamers still can gain a benefit from going to a higher MP ( concidering they are as fast as on MP0)- but this benefit is not as big as in the above "linear" scaling so that casuals dont feel forced to put more time into the game.

1990 game design principles are just not practical anymore.
forget that MORE TIME  INVESTED = FASTER AND FASTER REWARDS
you get more rewards through more  time invested  but this relation is linear and not exponential as in your scenario.

this has been explained by blizzard in typical politcal correct terms to not piss of the hardcore player base.

TL:DR
linear scaling MP bonuses are logical  but impractical because  of scaling gear.
If you had a fixed DPS number, linear scaling would be fine. But we dont have. a perfectly geared character can farm mp10 as fast as mp0 thus would be in a huge advantage - just because he invested more time / money into the game.
This would effectiveley make the rich richer and the poor poorer.
THIS IS NOT GOOD DESIGN

Current Design (2005)+: Invest 1 Hour get 1 reward - Invest x hour get x rewards.
Your Design (1990)+: Invest 1 Hour get 1 reward - Invest x Hour get x² rewards.

Edited by Jalatiphra, 16 January 2013 - 06:36 PM.

[Chriss007]

Jalatiphra, on 16 January 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

Assume we have averaged out xp and loot on all MPs:

if you have say 100k dps  and kill everything on mp0 with one hit you would like need 35 hits on mp10 - concidering mobs have 35times more life.
this character would benefit from the 35 times xp bonus as well 35 times higher chances of getting loot.
Therefore he would effectively  lvl just as fast on mp 10  as on mp1 and gain the same loot.

BUT:
Now comes a character with 1million dps thus kills mobs on mp10 10 times as fast as the other caracter.
He would gain 10 times more xp on mp10 as on mp1.
thats a pretty great difference.
----
This would make the game pretty unapealing to casual gamers since they feel left behind, because they lack the time to find appropriate gear to get higher  killspeeds.

But casuals are the major part of the playerbase, so MPs are balanced in a way that hardcore gamers still can gain a benefit from going to a higher MP ( concidering they are as fast as on MP0)- but this benefit is not as big as in the above "linear" scaling so that casuals dont feel forced to put more time into the game.

1990 game design principles are just not practical anymore.
forget that MORE TIME  INVESTED = FASTER AND FASTER REWARDS
you get more rewards through more  time invested  but this relation is linear and not exponential as in your scenario.

this has been explained by blizzard in typical politcal correct terms to not piss of the hardcore player base.

TL:DR
linear scaling MP bonuses are logical  but impractical because  of scaling gear.
If you had a fixed DPS number, linear scaling would be fine. But we dont have. a perfectly geared character can farm mp10 as fast as mp0 thus would be in a huge advantage - just because he invested more time / money into the game.
This would effectiveley make the rich richer and the poor poorer.
THIS IS NOT GOOD DESIGN

Current Design (2005)+: Invest 1 Hour get 1 reward - Invest x hour get x rewards.
Your Design (1990)+: Invest 1 Hour get 1 reward - Invest x Hour get x² rewards.

Well u clearly didnt read what i wrote!

I havnt said that they should average out XP and loot for all levels!  I said that would be too much!


Are u gonna tell me that regardless of which MP lvl u play on,  u get the same rewards for the time invested?  

Im talking about beeing forced into playing the game a fairly specific way to be effecient, whereas i would like if there where more options to choose from.

Theres no way that
"

Current Design (2005)+: Invest 1 Hour get 1 reward - Invest x hour get x rewards.
Your Design (1990)+: Invest 1 Hour get 1 reward - Invest x Hour get x² rewards.
"
applies to me playing on MP0 and then on MP6.  In no way am i gonna get the same amount of rares from playing 1 hour on MP6 as i would get from playing 1hour on MP0.

Yes for a select few, your statement about MP10 and getting much much more loot would be kind of true, if everything was avereged out, but that would probably require better gear then what is possible atm.
And then u are talking about ppl having 1mill dps? no1 has that much, at least according to diabloprogress..
So lets be reallistic.  Almost any player can get 100k dmg without spending a lot if time and gold atm. 200k is still achievable, but after that its gonna get pretty expensive and most casual players will most likely not get much higher unless they get really lucky with some supernice legendary drop.
so even if there are some few players that have 6-700k dmg buffed, it doesnt make sense to balance the game around the top 0.1% of the playerbase. There still arent that many players who have 400dps buffed, but there are some, so lets use them as an example, since it makes it much more realistic!
Now put that through your math and they get x4 the rewards for the time spent compared to the 100k dps player, if again, everything was avereged out.

Now to the way the game works today,  the XP bonus is getting a buff, which is nice, but its hardly gonna make players go to higher MP levels.  But at least it will give players like me a litte more XP while farming.
Loot isnt changing at all,  so all u get on MP10 is 250% more MF.   And to that we need to remember the NV bonus which makes the 250% from MP10 less of a difference. Some ppl have spent many hours looking at MF and it seems like about 350MF will give u about 4 times more rares. (dont know if that counts for legendarys aswell). take a loot at this post http://www.diablofan...stical-insight/

But lets just, to make it more easy say that bonus u get from MP10 is 3.5 times more loot for the same number of mobs killed. But then it takes 35times longer to kill them...  so u need to farm 10 times longer to get the same amount of loot on MP10.
Now we look af the 400k dps player, and yes, he can do it 4 times faster, but that still not fast enough.

And we havent even looked at the MF gained from gear and paragon levels. If we take them into account, cuz MF gets added, not multiplied, then the extra 250% from MP10 will problaby only get u twice the amount of rares from the same number of kills. which means that even a 400k dps player will still get almost 4.5 times less loot by going to MP10.  
Which means that if these calculations where 100% correct, then u could increase the number of rares gained for the same number of elites killed by 4.5 on MP10 and the 400k dps player would only get the same amount of rares as the 100k player on MP0.
Ofcourse this isnt 100% correct, but its not all that inacurrate.   U definatily wont get the same amont of loot for the same amount of time spent regardless of MP level!

So how can u say that there arent room for improvements when it comes to loot and MP levels?
why should normal players that like to play on higher MP levels get less loot then those on low MP?

[wwepatriot]

Chriss007, on 16 January 2013 - 08:11 PM, said:

Jalatiphra, on 16 January 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

Assume we have averaged out xp and loot on all MPs:

if you have say 100k dps  and kill everything on mp0 with one hit you would like need 35 hits on mp10 - concidering mobs have 35times more life.
this character would benefit from the 35 times xp bonus as well 35 times higher chances of getting loot.
Therefore he would effectively  lvl just as fast on mp 10  as on mp1 and gain the same loot.

BUT:
Now comes a character with 1million dps thus kills mobs on mp10 10 times as fast as the other caracter.
He would gain 10 times more xp on mp10 as on mp1.
thats a pretty great difference.
----
This would make the game pretty unapealing to casual gamers since they feel left behind, because they lack the time to find appropriate gear to get higher  killspeeds.

But casuals are the major part of the playerbase, so MPs are balanced in a way that hardcore gamers still can gain a benefit from going to a higher MP ( concidering they are as fast as on MP0)- but this benefit is not as big as in the above "linear" scaling so that casuals dont feel forced to put more time into the game.

1990 game design principles are just not practical anymore.
forget that MORE TIME  INVESTED = FASTER AND FASTER REWARDS
you get more rewards through more  time invested  but this relation is linear and not exponential as in your scenario.

this has been explained by blizzard in typical politcal correct terms to not piss of the hardcore player base.

TL:DR
linear scaling MP bonuses are logical  but impractical because  of scaling gear.
If you had a fixed DPS number, linear scaling would be fine. But we dont have. a perfectly geared character can farm mp10 as fast as mp0 thus would be in a huge advantage - just because he invested more time / money into the game.
This would effectiveley make the rich richer and the poor poorer.
THIS IS NOT GOOD DESIGN

Current Design (2005)+: Invest 1 Hour get 1 reward - Invest x hour get x rewards.
Your Design (1990)+: Invest 1 Hour get 1 reward - Invest x Hour get x² rewards.

Well u clearly didnt read what i wrote!

I havnt said that they should average out XP and loot for all levels!  I said that would be too much!


Are u gonna tell me that regardless of which MP lvl u play on,  u get the same rewards for the time invested?  

Im talking about beeing forced into playing the game a fairly specific way to be effecient, whereas i would like if there where more options to choose from.

Theres no way that
"

Current Design (2005)+: Invest 1 Hour get 1 reward - Invest x hour get x rewards.
Your Design (1990)+: Invest 1 Hour get 1 reward - Invest x Hour get x² rewards.
"
applies to me playing on MP0 and then on MP6.  In no way am i gonna get the same amount of rares from playing 1 hour on MP6 as i would get from playing 1hour on MP0.

Yes for a select few, your statement about MP10 and getting much much more loot would be kind of true, if everything was avereged out, but that would probably require better gear then what is possible atm.
And then u are talking about ppl having 1mill dps? no1 has that much, at least according to diabloprogress..
So lets be reallistic.  Almost any player can get 100k dmg without spending a lot if time and gold atm. 200k is still achievable, but after that its gonna get pretty expensive and most casual players will most likely not get much higher unless they get really lucky with some supernice legendary drop.
so even if there are some few players that have 6-700k dmg buffed, it doesnt make sense to balance the game around the top 0.1% of the playerbase. There still arent that many players who have 400dps buffed, but there are some, so lets use them as an example, since it makes it much more realistic!
Now put that through your math and they get x4 the rewards for the time spent compared to the 100k dps player, if again, everything was avereged out.

Now to the way the game works today,  the XP bonus is getting a buff, which is nice, but its hardly gonna make players go to higher MP levels.  But at least it will give players like me a litte more XP while farming.
Loot isnt changing at all,  so all u get on MP10 is 250% more MF.   And to that we need to remember the NV bonus which makes the 250% from MP10 less of a difference. Some ppl have spent many hours looking at MF and it seems like about 350MF will give u about 4 times more rares. (dont know if that counts for legendarys aswell). take a loot at this post http://www.diablofan...stical-insight/

But lets just, to make it more easy say that bonus u get from MP10 is 3.5 times more loot for the same number of mobs killed. But then it takes 35times longer to kill them...  so u need to farm 10 times longer to get the same amount of loot on MP10.
Now we look af the 400k dps player, and yes, he can do it 4 times faster, but that still not fast enough.

And we havent even looked at the MF gained from gear and paragon levels. If we take them into account, cuz MF gets added, not multiplied, then the extra 250% from MP10 will problaby only get u twice the amount of rares from the same number of kills. which means that even a 400k dps player will still get almost 4.5 times less loot by going to MP10.  
Which means that if these calculations where 100% correct, then u could increase the number of rares gained for the same number of elites killed by 4.5 on MP10 and the 400k dps player would only get the same amount of rares as the 100k player on MP0.
Ofcourse this isnt 100% correct, but its not all that inacurrate.   U definatily wont get the same amont of loot for the same amount of time spent regardless of MP level!

So how can u say that there arent room for improvements when it comes to loot and MP levels?
why should normal players that like to play on higher MP levels get less loot then those on low MP?

I dunno about less loot, but they should get less quality items.

One of the things that has happened to me and has happened to many players since the launch of this game is the strong continue to get stronger, the weaker (ones who are at MP5 and under) are simply not getting stronger even though they are doing the same things the strongest players who can do higher than MP5 are doing.

Thats been a nagging issue IMO.

[Chriss007]

wwepatriot, on 17 January 2013 - 10:53 PM, said:

I dunno about less loot, but they should get less quality items.

One of the things that has happened to me and has happened to many players since the launch of this game is the strong continue to get stronger, the weaker (ones who are at MP5 and under) are simply not getting stronger even though they are doing the same things the strongest players who can do higher than MP5 are doing.

Thats been a nagging issue IMO.

In some way the stronger should have a better chance to get loot, simply because they have better gear and can farm more loot faster.
But the loot they are chasing for personal upgrades are also way more rare, and therefor u need to be able to get more loot faster if they want a chance to win against the rng-god.

The problem im talking about is more about the difference in rewards based on playstyle.  I dont like that, just because ppl like me prefers to farm at a higher MP level, simply cuz oneshotting everything isnt always fun, we get "punished" by not getting same amount of loot for the same time spent as compared to an equally geared player speedfarming on low MP.

Im not saying that it has to be completely equal, cuz that is simply not possible, too many variables plays a factor in that. But i do feel that the difference in rewards from a certain playstyle are too great.
And the same goes for XP, which is why the comming change is a nice step forward, but i still think the XP bonus pr MP lvl should be a little higher.
And just the same principle can pretty much be applied to loot and MP lvl.

[wwepatriot]

You could be right, But what I am trying to really say is one of the problems I see in this game is even worse than the problem I saw in the MMO game Everquest.

That problem is, their is too big of a gap between a MP1 player and a MP9 player, to top it off, they implementing a PVP system with this gap in place.

I aint saying a MP1 player should instantly become as powerful as a MP9 player, the problem I am seeing is that anyone under MP5 and has played significant time in this game, is not going to move past MP5 level.

My case applies to this very accurately, as a barbarian with 115 hours of game play, only 20 of it used to do the quest and acts. So thats 90 hours of farming, in that 90 hours, I been pretty much on MP2 and 3 in that time span, the issue though? Nothing dropping not even legendaries on runs through most of Act 3. I can mow through most stuff and see 3-4 rares drop at a time, (all crap) thats about far as it goes.

In other words, its not a skill issue, thats far from it, its a loot issue or luck issue, I dunno wtf it is, even running with 300 MF after NV and only lvl 13 Paragon, I am not seeing these drops like some people are on the same darn MP level. I am fed up farming and seeing nothing drop.

[Chriss007]

wwepatriot, on 18 January 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

You could be right, But what I am trying to really say is one of the problems I see in this game is even worse than the problem I saw in the MMO game Everquest.

That problem is, their is too big of a gap between a MP1 player and a MP9 player, to top it off, they implementing a PVP system with this gap in place.

I aint saying a MP1 player should instantly become as powerful as a MP9 player, the problem I am seeing is that anyone under MP5 and has played significant time in this game, is not going to move past MP5 level.

My case applies to this very accurately, as a barbarian with 115 hours of game play, only 20 of it used to do the quest and acts. So thats 90 hours of farming, in that 90 hours, I been pretty much on MP2 and 3 in that time span, the issue though? Nothing dropping not even legendaries on runs through most of Act 3. I can mow through most stuff and see 3-4 rares drop at a time, (all crap) thats about far as it goes.

In other words, its not a skill issue, thats far from it, its a loot issue or luck issue, I dunno wtf it is, even running with 300 MF after NV and only lvl 13 Paragon, I am not seeing these drops like some people are on the same darn MP level. I am fed up farming and seeing nothing drop.

I can understand what u feel like, i have farmed many thousands of rares from act 3 and later the other acts with MP on, and i cant say that i have found many good items.. In my 550+hours of playing on my barb  i have maybe found items worth 300-400mill combined and probably 400 of those hours have been spent farming act3+.  So have not been the luckiest, but sadly enough i most likely havent been the most unlucky :/
Im fairly well geared, sitting at almost 170k dps going to 225k with battle rage, and im able to solo ubers a MP8 without much problem, and have no problem taking them on MP10 on a team with equally geared players.
But this also means that upgrades for me now costs mostly 50mill+ and some items are 200+.  So my motivation for farming is quite low atm,  cuz if look at what i have gotten so far, im looking at having to farm 200+hours to buy a nice IK chest,  and i dont even wanna think about a Mempo or a Witching hour...
All i can do is hope that the RNG goods will treat me with a rare og legendary that is worth 200+mill or more.

And this bring me back to the point of the OP,  Yes, i could most likely get more loot and earn more gold on AH if i switched to speedfarming on low MP,  but thats exactly my point,  why should that be the, by far, best option?

Mindless farming on low MP can be a nice and relaxing playstyle sometimes, but i cant do that for very long.. Farming is boring enough in itself,  so the only way for me is to set the MP at a level where i have to think just a little bit.  
So i mostly farm on MP6  or 7, cuz eventhough its not hard and i dont die, i still run into elites where i actually have to move out of the way if i dont wanna die.
This is aslo why i dont like to do the WW farm very often, cuz it takes away all need of skills. it feels like, hey, dont have a brain, no problem, just play WW on low MP and win.

Edited by Chriss007, 19 January 2013 - 11:21 PM.