29 replies to this topic

[rebjorn]

So, we all wonder what would fix this and that with Diablo 3. It's just a thought but..

What if when you start a new character you can tick a checkbox labelled "No trading character" - as the description implies, this character wouldn't be able to perform any trades - at all. Everything about that character is 100% without outside influence.

Would that A) be fun? B) solve anything? C) Prove that Blizz didn't create D3 for RMAH revenues only?

Thx :- )

Edited by rebjorn, 08 January 2013 - 02:53 PM.

[Orb]

I guess you can just self-impose these rules by yourself.
Also, if they have this checkbox, they would have to add other self-imposed rules as checkbox as well (purist, health phobia etc.) and it's hard to draw a line which rules should be included or not.

[rebjorn]

I can't comment on your other assessments, Orb, but self-imposing these rules is not easy for everyone and I'll happily admit that includes me. There's a lot of competition involved. The single-player / LAN gameplay was limited. One could cheat, yes, but not really when you played with friends who knew the game enough to notice things. A lot of players and I mean A LOT of players feel that the AHs are ruining a lot of things about this game.

[Zero(pS)]

The problem with self imposing ourselves those rules is knowing that the whole drop system very likely takes into account the AH existance, and that to get decent gear to get to later stages of Inferno (or higher MPs) you'd probably have to play dozens of hours to find mediocre items.

In the end, the feeling is that you're just hindering yourself for no reason. I can't properly explain why, it just feels bad. If it was a proper mode (proposed by Blizzard), and a legit way of playing the game (with a way to even show others in your profile), it would have a whole different feel to it. I'm pretty sure a LOT of people would play the game like that, as many don't like "playing the AH" ​(it's a major negative point for a lot of the players).

I've seen this suggested a number of times now. Most people seem to think that the chance of having something good drop would be so low that Blizz would need to revamp the whole drop system so that people could reach the later stages of Inferno difficulty.

I think it could work if it came with something like +500% MF and +500% GF (this later part so we could try out crafting), maybe a slightly increased chance of having recipes drop, and revamped shops (so the vendors can have a chance of selling something like a 1.2k weapon with decent affixes instead of 110% crap).

I'd certainly try it out.

[TheDemokin]

I'd say such rules can be self imposed quite easily - it's just a matter of personal preference. However to say the least never using the AH is a completely different game - right now as it is, with using AH it would take an average Joe (2-4) hours a day months to be able to do MP10 at any sort of decency. If you want to play the game without any MP at all as a purist that farms items to simply be able to do MP0 all the way - you're taking away a huge part of the game that was added in the recent patch as extra content. This is not about efficiency of farming, MF, etc - it's more of just something else to do when you're bored of doing 1283710298730189 millions Alkaizer runs on MP0-1 - because lets face it - that's just pretty damn boring.
If you do not have AH - you will take, may be, at least a year to be able to even do MP8 if you're gearing yourself from purely your own drops, and quite honestly - i won't wanna play that.

Right now as it is - if you're bored of playing the normal game - go to hardcore side. That is challenging, it is a whole new game, very different builds, very different gearing, very different playstyle. On top of that you are always on the edge of your seat - you really don't wanna get jailed next to 5 exploding bombs or run over fence fire... On top of that - you will have no gold or items and it's pretty damn hard to 'cheat' by using some of the stuff you have on softcore.

I still dont' understand why people say that AH ruined the game. Trading is an essential part of any game that has gear drops. Back in D2LOD people would spend 10 hours farming cows and 100 hours spamming on trade forums, and jumping from one trade game to another just to be able to find that 1 upgrade they want. There were LOADS of pure traders that never even hit 99 and just traded making loads of USD by selling SOJs and then runes... no different from the current situation. The only thing that AH did is - removed the need to create and host hundreds of trade games with 5-8 players in each. It drastically simplified the gear searching process via trading. Back then finding upgrades on your own was just as impossible as it is now - say if you wanted to find an SOJ you could farm for months before you get to see one, etc. In other words - AH didn't do any changes to the game - it just created a much better / easier interface for trade which was completely non-existent the predecessor.

[maka]

TheDemokin, on 08 January 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

-snip-

That's just not true. In D2, I never, EVER, traded. In fact, I mostly played SP and LAN, so I pretty much relied on my own drops (as I'm doing now in D3). It's not the same. It's nowhere near the same.

[TheDemokin]

maka, on 08 January 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

TheDemokin, on 08 January 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

-snip-

...

That was YOUR personal choice and you CAN make the same choice here, how is that different?

[Emberos]

I have alts of each class called NoAHxcuses that are all geared without using AH.  They can use BS/Jeweler but only use gems/pages/mats that they have found themselves.  They are going through the game at MP10 currently.  It's a fun way to play 1-60 at any rate.  Once I hit 60 with them, I'm sure I'll have to drop the MP to 0 or 1 but that's fine.  One AH geared toon that can run MP10 Inferno is enough -- the others I'm playing with what I can find/craft on my own and it's a good change of pace.

[Vulmio]

Orb, on 08 January 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:

I guess you can just self-impose these rules by yourself.
Also, if they have this checkbox, they would have to add other self-imposed rules as checkbox as well (purist, health phobia etc.) and it's hard to draw a line which rules should be included or not.

Well, hardcore mode is just a "checkbox" for "when my character die I delete it". We could do it by ourselves without needing a whole mode built around it.

[Indimix]

Zero(pS), on 08 January 2013 - 04:25 PM, said:

The problem with self imposing ourselves those rules is knowing that the whole drop system very likely takes into account the AH existance, and that to get decent gear to get to later stages of Inferno (or higher MPs) you'd probably have to play dozens of hours to find mediocre items.

In the end, the feeling is that you're just hindering yourself for no reason. I can't properly explain why, it just feels bad. If it was a proper mode (proposed by Blizzard), and a legit way of playing the game (with a way to even show others in your profile), it would have a whole different feel to it. I'm pretty sure a LOT of people would play the game like that, as many don't like "playing the AH" ​(it's a major negative point for a lot of the players).

I've seen this suggested a number of times now. Most people seem to think that the chance of having something good drop would be so low that Blizz would need to revamp the whole drop system so that people could reach the later stages of Inferno difficulty.

I think it could work if it came with something like +500% MF and +500% GF (this later part so we could try out crafting), maybe a slightly increased chance of having recipes drop, and revamped shops (so the vendors can have a chance of selling something like a 1.2k weapon with decent affixes instead of 110% crap).

I'd certainly try it out.

Agree. But it will only work if Blizz implements a proper non-random blacksmith in the game. So you can do things like:

- Add sockets
- Add affixes
- More interesting stuff.

And costs relative to what you want to add/modify and more important, in what piece of item you have.

[Speaker]

Vulmio, on 08 January 2013 - 09:21 PM, said:

Orb, on 08 January 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:

I guess you can just self-impose these rules by yourself.
Also, if they have this checkbox, they would have to add other self-imposed rules as checkbox as well (purist, health phobia etc.) and it's hard to draw a line which rules should be included or not.

Well, hardcore mode is just a "checkbox" for "when my character die I delete it". We could do it by ourselves without needing a whole mode built around it.

That's not even close to the same thing.  Hardcore is like a whole separate server where you can only group with hardcore players and buy and sell from hardcore players through trades/AH, and that is by design.  It wouldn't make sense if you could farm all day on your softcore chars and then trade the gear to your hardcore char.

Edited by Speaker, 08 January 2013 - 11:24 PM.

[maka]

TheDemokin, on 08 January 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

maka, on 08 January 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

TheDemokin, on 08 January 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

-snip-

...

That was YOUR personal choice and you CAN make the same choice here, how is that different?

I thought that was pretty clear.
It's different because D2 was a much more 'free' game experience; you could trade or you could not trade, it wouldn't really impact your (my) ability to find items in the game, it was just designed that way.
D3 is so tightly measured and controlled that, if you don't use all the systems available to you, the amount of gimpage is just to much too bear.

In other words: D2 was designed as a solo/small group game; D3 was clearly designed from a much more 'massive multiplayer' standpoint. I.e, it was designed from a mindset of "the players will use the AH to buy gear". So, if you don't use it, you're gimping yourself to such an extreme that it almost becomes pointless.

Like I said: I thought this was pretty clear already. I don't understand how you decide to take part in a discussion like this and don't realise what is the people's main problem with the AH.

Edited by maka, 09 January 2013 - 12:16 AM.

[maka]

Speaker, on 08 January 2013 - 11:20 PM, said:

Vulmio, on 08 January 2013 - 09:21 PM, said:

Orb, on 08 January 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:

I guess you can just self-impose these rules by yourself.
Also, if they have this checkbox, they would have to add other self-imposed rules as checkbox as well (purist, health phobia etc.) and it's hard to draw a line which rules should be included or not.

Well, hardcore mode is just a "checkbox" for "when my character die I delete it". We could do it by ourselves without needing a whole mode built around it.

That's not even close to the same thing.  Hardcore is like a whole separate server where you can only group with hardcore players and buy and sell from hardcore players through trades/AH, and that is by design.  It wouldn't make sense if you could farm all day on your softcore chars and then trade the gear to your hardcore char.

No, it IS the same thing. OP is asking for a 'No trade' checkbox which would turn your character into a, well, 'No trade' character, just like checking the 'HC' checkbox turns your character into a 'HC' character, and Orb suggested just self-imposing these restrictions. Why not do the same with HC? When you die once, delete the character.
'No trade' characters would also only play with other 'No trade' characters, and couldn't share gear with other modes.
I don't see the difference.

Unless you're saying "Well, simulating a HC character in SC is nowhere near the same; the exhilaration just doesn't compare".
To which I would respond "Well, gimping yourself by not trading in a game that clearly expects you to trade is also nowhere near the same as having a game mode that knows you don't have an AH, and adjusts itself accordingly".

[Speaker]

It sounded to me like he was suggesting that it would just prevent you from trading.  That doesn't require a whole separate mode like hardcore.

Edited by Speaker, 09 January 2013 - 12:29 AM.

[TheDemokin]

maka, on 09 January 2013 - 12:09 AM, said:

TheDemokin, on 08 January 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

maka, on 08 January 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

TheDemokin, on 08 January 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

-snip-

...

That was YOUR personal choice and you CAN make the same choice here, how is that different?

I thought that was pretty clear.
It's different because D2 was a much more 'free' game experience; you could trade or you could not trade, it wouldn't really impact your (my) ability to find items in the game, it was just designed that way.
D3 is so tightly measured and controlled that, if you don't use all the systems available to you, the amount of gimpage is just to much too bear.

In other words: D2 was designed as a solo/small group game; D3 was clearly designed from a much more 'massive multiplayer' standpoint. I.e, it was designed from a mindset of "the players will use the AH to buy gear". So, if you don't use it, you're gimping yourself to such an extreme that it almost becomes pointless.

Like I said: I thought this was pretty clear already. I don't understand how you decide to take part in a discussion like this and don't realise what is the people's main problem with the AH.

I don't realize what the main problem with the AH is because everything suggested so far by the community is only a theory. There is no statistical proof of any sort that AH in any way impacts drops a player gets in the game. All there is - is speculation and conspiracy theories. Honestly, as much as you wish you may argue that Blizzard controls drop rates... For what purpose exactly may i ask?

Taking that point out of context - what is it exactly that makes this game "designed from a mindset of the 'players will use the AH to buy gear' "?

Don't get me wrong - i really want to hear this, because i've played both D2 and D3 since the launch and i'm seriously failing to see how this is any different in the root of it.

Any game that has gear and is gear-centric will inevitably have trade. Lots of trade. The only way to not have trade is to have gear that fits all - I.E. no primary stat at all, but rather +Damage +Dodge, etc. Then you will find upgrades for yourself. As it stands from the design perspective - the game could have such a great variety of items that unless you play all classes and all builds on each - you will always find, by probability, loads of gear that you do not need but that is good. So will others. Surely you have a choice of simply 'salvaging' that item, or, the usual choice, would be to trade it for something that you need.

So, if we are not disputing the fact that trade is an essential part of any gear-centric game, then we are disputing the fact that AH, in particular is the problem. My view on this is - AH has always been there. In D2 it was called D2jsp.com. Now it is called AH. Same thing, different interface. Last time we have to jump from one game to another and open trades with people for hours before seeing anything remotely useful to ourselves, now all we have to do is click set up the criteria and click the 'search' button. I do not see how that ruined the game in any sense.

So if it wasn't the AH that ruined the game, then it was RMAH? Once again RMAH has always been there, it was previously called 'illegal gold & item selling websites' that cashed in huge profits by selling D2 gear. It was, is and will always be bannable. Now - you have the ability to buy gear with cash LEGALLY via RMAH. This is a brilliant step forward by Blizzard - it took the business away from all the 'ni hao' companies that were cashing in on THEIR game and moved the profits to their pockets instead, brilliant step.

If it wasn't the RMAH, then what is it exactly? You mentioned that back in D2 you could play LAN or single player... In D3 you can leave chat channels, do not click the AH button and do not join public games, none of which is enforced onto you by any means, and you have the exact same single player you had back in D2. If you are talking about being able to edit items back in single player in D2... well that was only fun for a very short while.

What i am saying is that - i honestly do not see the difference between making a personal choice back in D2 of not going to a website that sold items for cash vs not clicking a button 'AH / RMAH' in D3. Both are an individual preference and a choice. The only difference is that the latter is only a single click, while former is 5 clicks...

[Sagathiest]

Blizzard has stated that they balanced drop rates with the AH in mind.(im not going to search for the quote maybe someone else will) its in the forums if you search-probably several times.  In any case the implication is that if there were no AH drop-rates would be higher because items would not be so readily accessible.

Edited by Sagathiest, 09 January 2013 - 06:02 AM.

[Zero(pS)]

Indimix, on 08 January 2013 - 10:19 PM, said:

Agree. But it will only work if Blizz implements a proper non-random blacksmith in the game. So you can do things like:

- Add sockets
- Add affixes
- More interesting stuff.

And costs relative to what you want to add/modify and more important, in what piece of item you have.

The problem with letting us add sockets and affixes is the same that led to the removal of the mystic: it would hurt the item hunt (so it would become even more pointless than people claim it already is - with 99,9% of the items being crap). I'm kinda on Blizz's side on this one.

Fixing the whole "socket is mandatory, otherwise you're wasting a +random affix" would be a lot nicer imho though

[Christan]

Zero(pS), on 09 January 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

Indimix, on 08 January 2013 - 10:19 PM, said:

Agree. But it will only work if Blizz implements a proper non-random blacksmith in the game. So you can do things like:

- Add sockets
- Add affixes
- More interesting stuff.

And costs relative to what you want to add/modify and more important, in what piece of item you have.

The problem with letting us add sockets and affixes is the same that led to the removal of the mystic: it would hurt the item hunt (so it would become even more pointless than people claim it already is - with 99,9% of the items being crap). I'm kinda on Blizz's side on this one.

Fixing the whole "socket is mandatory, otherwise you're wasting a +random affix" would be a lot nicer imho though

it might actually improve the item hunt a bit as people can look for a +6 affix helm without a socket with the perfect stats...

but aside from that what would everyone feel about a "socket quest"
i miss larzuk

they could prevent to much abuse by making it work only on +10 req lvl items, so only hell / inferno could socket 63's
or maybe only inferno socket quest for the 63's and hell could go up to 61 or 62?

socketing might make the item bound? and can not have more sockets than it normally could of had?


edit-- what about single player achievements for no trading chars, beat XYZ boss while solo--- types
ofc people dropping items on ground couldn't be picked up by a no trading char, so on...

Edited by Christan, 09 January 2013 - 08:35 AM.

[shaggy]

Sagathiest, on 09 January 2013 - 06:02 AM, said:

Blizzard has stated that they balanced drop rates with the AH in mind.(im not going to search for the quote maybe someone else will) its in the forums if you search-probably several times.  In any case the implication is that if there were no AH drop-rates would be higher because items would not be so readily accessible.

And if the AH didn't exist that post you're "quoting" would say that they balance drop rates with trading in mind.

In an environment where 99.99999999% of items are tradeable you'd be stupid not to take that into consideration when it comes to drop rates.  It doesn't matter if it's the AH, or trading.  It just happens to be the AH in this case.  It must be taken into consideration otherwise even the "rare" items will be everywhere within a few days/weeks and the game will have absolutely no longevity, which is something people whine about constantly.

So, regardless of HOW items move between players, that has to be taken into consideration.  Arguing about the AH part of it is stupid because it truly misses the point.

[Sagathiest]

shaggy, on 09 January 2013 - 02:21 PM, said:

Sagathiest, on 09 January 2013 - 06:02 AM, said:

Blizzard has stated that they balanced drop rates with the AH in mind.(im not going to search for the quote maybe someone else will) its in the forums if you search-probably several times.  In any case the implication is that if there were no AH drop-rates would be higher because items would not be so readily accessible.

And if the AH didn't exist that post you're "quoting" would say that they balance drop rates with trading in mind.

In an environment where 99.99999999% of items are tradeable you'd be stupid not to take that into consideration when it comes to drop rates.  It doesn't matter if it's the AH, or trading.  It just happens to be the AH in this case.  It must be taken into consideration otherwise even the "rare" items will be everywhere within a few days/weeks and the game will have absolutely no longevity, which is something people whine about constantly.

So, regardless of HOW items move between players, that has to be taken into consideration.  Arguing about the AH part of it is stupid because it truly misses the point.

The AH is not just trading its super efficient trading. You can go on the AH and buy the exact item you want and receive it instantly no need to search for the player who has the item you want. Thus old school trading was less efficient than the AH. Therefore if drops were balanced on the basis of No AH trading then they would be higher.

So yes HOW items move between players does matter because if drops are balanced based on how easy it is to acquire items by trade then a more efficient trading mechanism will result in lower drop rates to compensate for the increased availability.