184 replies to this topic

[Xenocow]

shaggy, on 31 December 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

They're trying to make money by putting out a quality product

Exactly, they are trying...not very successful though...which is pretty sad for a leading Game Company like Blizzard.

shaggy, on 31 December 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

it sounds like a company that's hell-bent on not releasing content that can't even pass internal testing.

How far they got with "internal testing" we all saw at D3 release^^
There is a Playerbase with millions and millions of dedicated Gamers who could test stuff on the Beta Servers.
Brilliant Minds with crazy Ideas on how to improve the Game.

Blizzard refuse to actually benefit from this. They rather test with the Muppets intern, who apperently dont know shit.

Edited by Xenocow, 01 January 2013 - 01:00 PM.

[shaggy]

Indimix, on 31 December 2012 - 09:45 PM, said:

Those casual players, like to use the RMAH to buy stuff. The game is directed to them. That's why they put little effort in giving the game any kind of replayability.

I'm going to make two points here..

First, a statement like that requires citation.  There is no way that you could possibly know that casual players use the RMAH more, or less, than hardcore players.  Without a citation, your entire premise is worthless.

Secondly, even if you are right, you're still only addressing HALF of the transaction - the purchaser.  There still have to be sellers, and logic would dictate that hardcore players generate more saleable items per capita than casual players, and therefore hold a higher percentage of RMAH sales per capita.  Being that you cannot purchase an item that isn't for sale and that you cannot sell an item if there is no one to buy it, you cannot just look at the RMAH from a "who is clicking 'buy'" perspective and use that to attempt to extrapolate who Blizzard is catering to.

Remember the guy who made over $10k in RMAH money within a few weeks of it going live?  I sincerely doubt he was a casual player, and I'm willing to bet that there are plenty more like him who are also not casual players.

Xenocow, on 01 January 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

How far they got with "internal testing" we all saw at D3 release^^
There is a Playerbase with millions and millions of dedicated Gamers who could test stuff on the Beta Servers.
Brilliant Minds with crazy Ideas on how to improve the Game.

Blizzard refuse to actually benefit from this. They rather test with the Muppets intern, who apperently dont know shit.

Why would they bother to take feedback from people, like yourself, who are so hell-bent on trolling them that nothing they do is right?  Not enough internal testing on Inferno... flame and troll Blizzard.  PvP didn't go to PTR for us to determine if it was good or not... flame and troll Blizzard.  One day people are complaining that they need to take internal testing more seriously and the next day it's people complaining that their team is "muppets" and that everything should just be deployed directly to the PTR.

They're a company and they work by adhering to procedures for development and deployment.  Are you suggesting they completely scrap internal QA testing?  If so, are you willing to deal with the consequences?  Because, make no mistake, there will be consequences.  The PTR is generally not for alpha releases.  That's why it's called "beta testing" and from what the blues said it sounds very much like PvP did not make it out of alpha.

You know... software development... the same shit that damn near every other company on the planet does.

Edited by shaggy, 01 January 2013 - 01:24 PM.

[kosuta91]

Well, no matter what, I still hope that PvP will come within next 3-6months, and that it will "fix" the game.

[Xenocow]

shaggy, on 01 January 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

They're a company and they work by adhering to procedures for development and deployment.  Are you suggesting they completely scrap internal QA testing?  If so, are you willing to deal with the consequences?  Because, make no mistake, there will be consequences.  The PTR is generally not for alpha releases.  That's why it's called "beta testing" and from what the blues said it sounds very much like PvP did not make it out of alpha.

You know... software development... the same shit that damn near every other company on the planet does.

Apperently internal testing ISN'T WORKING... breaking news buddy.
Why do you think this whole game is such a failure in the first place?
The player was completely scratched from the equation by Blizzard.

As a developer you can't dig thru Millions of Topics on the Forums checking for positiv feedback, thats correct.
But why not put up a Read-only Section, and have the Mods/Guides/MVPs move "good" feedback there for the (real) DEVs to read, and actually respond ?
Why not have DEVs like Jay Wilson contact major Streamers like Kripparian, Athene, KingKongor, Ziss...and actually talk directly to the People who play the Games about Game Mechanics, Ideas, suggestions for improvement and Stuff ?

I posted it on another thread already  here on the Forum.
Chris Wilson (Grinding Gear Games) the DEV / Path of Exile... on Twitch with Kripparian in TS2 talking for hours and hours.
http://www.twitch.tv...06620?t=109m33s

They can do it? Why cant Blizzard ?
Blizzard as of right now could not be further away from the players.

We are just Cattle...with Wallets.

Edited by Xenocow, 01 January 2013 - 03:32 PM.

[Nymrael]

Although I enjoy streamings / videos from various ppl, I don't want a game to be based on kripparian or athene or any other dude out there as they don't represent the majority of gamers.

[Vulmio]

Xenocow, on 01 January 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

shaggy, on 01 January 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

They're a company and they work by adhering to procedures for development and deployment.  Are you suggesting they completely scrap internal QA testing?  If so, are you willing to deal with the consequences?  Because, make no mistake, there will be consequences.  The PTR is generally not for alpha releases.  That's why it's called "beta testing" and from what the blues said it sounds very much like PvP did not make it out of alpha.

You know... software development... the same shit that damn near every other company on the planet does.

Apperently internal testing ISN'T WORKING... breaking news buddy.
Why do you think this whole game is such a failure in the first place?
The player was completely scratched from the equation by Blizzard.

As a developer you can't dig thru Millions of Topics on the Forums checking for positiv feedback, thats correct.
But why not put up a Read-only Section, and have the Mods/Guides/MVPs move "good" feedback there for the (real) DEVs to read, and actually respond ?
Why not have DEVs like Jay Wilson contact major Streamers like Kripparian, Athene, KingKongor, Ziss...and actually talk directly to the People who play the Games about Game Mechanics, Ideas, suggestions for improvement and Stuff ?

I posted it on another thread already  here on the Forum.
Chris Wilson (Grinding Gear Games) the DEV / Path of Exile... on Twitch with Kripparian in TS2 talking for hours and hours.
http://www.twitch.tv...06620?t=109m33s

They can do it? Why cant Blizzard ?
Blizzard as of right now could not be further away from the players.

We are just Cattle...with Wallets.

Those players are experienced gamers, they would have great ideas for experienced gamers but maybe too complicated for new players. Blizzard main rule for their games is to make them as accessible as possible for everyone. Accessibility comes first, gameplay comes second.

[TehAdi]

Vulmio, on 01 January 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

Those players are experienced gamers, they would have great ideas for experienced gamers but maybe too complicated for new players. Blizzard main rule for their games is to make them as accessible as possible for everyone. Accessibility comes first, gameplay comes second.

What the hell did i just read? Ok go play starcraft where noobs getting raped so bad that they quit the game and play custom mini games only (usually these mini games are made by gamers, not by Blizz).

I don't think those "ideas for experienced gamers" that GGG involved in Path of Exile with the help of community and ppl who actually know what a good game is are too much for casual gamers.
And if you call a good game too complicated just because you actually need to read your stats, passive skills and THINK about how to make you character better maybe you should invest in Wii or Nintendo DS (which are great for having fun but most games are primitive).
Most gamers are just lame these days and D3 is bad just because Bli$$ wanted to make money on these noobs.

Maybe i'm not tolerant enough but its just my opinion.

Edited by TehAdi, 01 January 2013 - 05:04 PM.

[Nymrael]

path of exile is still in beta AND it is not a big hype as diablo.

If PoE had so many ppl interested as diablo, you would have the same results (a lot of people whining)
Also in PoE, people are willing to compromise a bit and give it "some time" cause it's a new game and a promising effort after all while blizzard did not have that luxury since it's a huge company and the bar was set way too high.

ALSO (and most important) PoE is a completely new game, it doesn't have to follow a certain path in order to be called a worthy sequel of a previous game as diablo did. That means there is A LOT more room for experimentation and changes to the a-rpg subgenre, things that could never ever happen in a diablo game because a lot of people / critics etc who have played the previous would jump wild on blizzard saying that "this game is not diablo".
Personally, I'd rather see blizzard experimenting and change a lot of basic elements of previous diablo games (btw attribute points is NOT one of them, imho) and evolve the genre even further.
I believe that they didn't do that cause they were afraid of the above mentioned outrage.

(ps. I am not saying diablo is perfect and / or PoE is bad, just stating how i see things in both cases, since it was brought up here and I am pretty sure that once PoE is released, i'll definitely give it a try)

[overneathe]

TehAdi, on 01 January 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

What the hell did i just read? Ok go play starcraft where noobs getting raped so bad that they quit the game and play custom mini games only (usually these mini games are made by gamers, not by Blizz).

That's super incorrect. I'm a very bad StarCraft player but have completed the single campaign in Insane, completed all the challenges on Gold and have attained Gold League without breaking too much sweat or watching youtube vids with strats over and over. Blizzard's main philosophy is "easy to learn, hard to master" and it has been applied to absolutely all their products. It has also worked greatly. Anyone can pick up Blizzard games and be semi-good at them but the real pro players are very distinguishable from the pulp. The ones that have truly "mastered" it.

Also on the topic of asking streamers and youtube celebrity type folk. Their ideas are indeed very often too complex for beginner players. What happens when you implement such a thing is exactly what's going on in PoE at the moment, from what I've seen at least. You have a gigantic skill tree without any introduction and 90% chance to fail on your first picks. The pro players love this of course as they theorycraft their way to awesomeness, like Kripp has shown many times, but beginner players are absolutely lost in the chaos. And that means a lot less sales, which leads to a less successful company and a lower chance for that company to survive and keep doing what they love doing - creating games.

Another problem with said streamer crowd is that it would be cool to sometimes follow their ideas, but by all means, they are not gods. Some of their ideas are just not good at all. Just because they stream and release videos doesn't mean they're the be all end all of gaming knowledge. I personally follow a lot of them and like listening to what they have to share but not more than 50% of their ideas have any sort theoretical success in the games they play. Also, do not be mistaken, Blizzard follows them as well, just like they follow DiabloFans as well.

[Polrayne]

Betrayed, on 31 December 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

But to say that and not add the many things this game could use such as...

Clan Support
Chat channels
Randomization in the world even remotely....
Create a game function ( Trade games, Duel games, Act 1 games etc etc. )
More then 30 people doing the most popular quest aka change the way linking with community works
Doing Act 1 - Diablo in one game keeping NV stacks.
Having gear less dependent on your weapon
There is very very few unique item visuals
Some sort of optional ladder system
Better home screen ( such as the one the guy posted on here not to long back or an updated one )
Better RMAH or AH functionality such as tracking items, shift clicking items, maybe item for item exhange etc etc ( I mean game is based on AH now. )
announcements on what their working on whether it be new classes, new maps, anything to let us know were not doing the same none randomized map forever.
Give bosses an update with better random mechanics ( reasonable )

They will give you all of this.  Its called "Expansion Pack".  And they want your money first.

Edited by Polrayne, 01 January 2013 - 06:50 PM.

[TehAdi]

overneathe, on 01 January 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

TehAdi, on 01 January 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

What the hell did i just read? Ok go play starcraft where noobs getting raped so bad that they quit the game and play custom mini games only (usually these mini games are made by gamers, not by Blizz).

Their ideas are indeed very often too complex for beginner players. What happens when you implement such a thing is exactly what's going on in PoE at the moment, from what I've seen at least. You have a gigantic skill tree without any introduction and 90% chance to fail on your first picks. The pro players love this of course as they theorycraft their way to awesomeness, like Kripp has shown many times, but beginner players are absolutely lost in the chaos.

You are wrong. The skill tree looks too complex only for people that never played the game. After you actually check the tree yourself in the game you realize its simple and easy to pickup, only thing you need to do is think how you want to play. Its like the leveling route with +x to statistic points and key decisions like +30 max mana or + 15% phisical damage (you choose what you want, depends on how you want to play your character).
Its simple but really fun, easy to pickup but hard to master and plan every single skill point.
You have to try it for yourself and stop being Blizzard zombie follower.

I'm not saying that Blizz or any other company should follow everything that some streamer said. As you said, they're not gods. But let me use Kripp as an example. This guy spent so much time in the games that he knows what things should look and work in h&s and rpg games. The guy has no life (he admited it himself), he is much more dedicated into playing games than most of the gamers and sometimes its good to check his ideas to improve the game. Don't you think?

Blizzard is listening to wrong people. Double legendary drop and lower difficulty level made this game worse than it was. Let's just admit it -.-

And about starcraft thing. It was never easy to learn starcraft, i have played it more than diablo. But that's offtopic so let's leave it.

[misiceman]

I always love coming into these topics and reading the various hate leveled at D3. I think the points have been said at least a billion (I wonder if anyone ever tallied all the complaints on diablofans alone) times.

There is one thing that needs to change. Battle.net 2.0. Its a problem in starcraft and its a bigger problem in D3. They really need to overhaul some of the major pieces of functionality to give the game the life you guys (the haters) are all talking about. I am well aware the general game experience could be better and frankly it damn well could be but its far from the abysmal failure that everyone says it is.

However, add in dueling for now and FIX battle.net and suddenly we have a  game where we can truly communicate. A game where we can open a list of games and see mp10 playthrough next to mp1 act 3 farm run next to mp5 Ubers. A place where we can actually talk to each other IN GAME and get things done without being limited by the 99 player limit stupidity.

If there was one critical success of D2, it was that battle.net was so good for its time (and bnet2.0 is so bad for its time).

More fun stuff will come, they are clearly adding it and as much as we wish it, there isnt a magic wand to game development and it is not an instant process. Time is what this game needs (insert all the stuff about them learning from LOD and applying it) for the PvE and PvP content. What we need is Battle.net that works not one that functions.

patch 1.6 was supposed to be for behind the scenes stuff, here is hoping its some set up on the server for more bnet features.

*note: The reason i said the critical success of d2 is the b.net is because look at what all games took from it, not just the diablo series or arpgs. Involving the community in games have always made a game more successful and the blueprint that people used for a very very long time was b.net. The next best things are forums and frankly we have those... *looks around*

Edited by misiceman, 01 January 2013 - 07:29 PM.

[itbasolo]

Sometimes I feel the same way

[overneathe]

TehAdi, on 01 January 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

You are wrong. The skill tree looks too complex only for people that never played the game. After you actually check the tree yourself in the game you realize its simple and easy to pickup, only thing you need to do is think how you want to play. Its like the leveling route with +x to statistic points and key decisions like +30 max mana or + 15% phisical damage (you choose what you want, depends on how you want to play your character).

Wasn't that the point? They look complex to people that never played the game? It doesn't have to look complex to be successful. Also, if you need to wait many, many hours until you realize you've done something horribly bad... is that a good thing? Are players supposed to feel better because "well now I know what I did wrong"? What makes you think the second time over they won't be wrong again? It's well known across the PoE community that the game has a harsh learning curve and that's bad design because it alienates a big part of the beginner player base, which is always the major part of any game community.

[Mortai]

Quote

They will give you all of this.  Its called "Expansion Pack".  And they want your money first.

lols, this.

I like the way you think.

[TehAdi]

overneathe, on 01 January 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:

Wasn't that the point? They look complex to people that never played the game? It doesn't have to look complex to be successful. Also, if you need to wait many, many hours until you realize you've done something horribly bad... is that a good thing? Are players supposed to feel better because "well now I know what I did wrong"? What makes you think the second time over they won't be wrong again? It's well known across the PoE community that the game has a harsh learning curve and that's bad design because it alienates a big part of the beginner player base, which is always the major part of any game community.

Maybe some people need to start using their brains while playing video/computer games? It useful sometimes, believe me.
I did 1 char on default ladder and 1 on hardcore (excluding the event ladders). I learned the game on default, then used the knowledge on hc.
Was that hard for me? Nope.
Also you have orbs of regret + respec points you get while doing some quests so you can fix your mistakes which makes your whole post unargumented.

[overneathe]

TehAdi, on 01 January 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:

Maybe some people need to start using their brains while playing video/computer games? It useful sometimes, believe me.
I did 1 char on default ladder and 1 on hardcore (excluding the event ladders). I learned the game on default, then used the knowledge on hc.
Was that hard for me? Nope.
Also you have orbs of regret + respec points you get while doing some quests so you can fix your mistakes which makes your whole post unargumented.

Telling someone "you need to use your brain to play a game"... is just not a good thing to do. Especially if you run said game.
And from what I understand the respec mechanic in PoE is super slow to acquire? I'm not experienced with it so not really sure.

[Xenocow]

TehAdi, on 01 January 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:

Maybe some people need to start using their brains while playing video/computer games? It useful sometimes, believe me.
I did 1 char on default ladder and 1 on hardcore (excluding the event ladders). I learned the game on default, then used the knowledge on hc.
Was that hard for me? Nope.
Also you have orbs of regret + respec points you get while doing some quests so you can fix your mistakes which makes your whole post unargumented.

I feel with ya...playing videogames since good 30 years myself.
If you put one of those called "Gamers" today on a Everquest1 Red Server...they leave crying after 30 Minutes calling for Mommy

Games today simply feeding the Reward center in the brain with less and less effort, like pushing a button over and over again.
And people are apperently happy & satisfied with it...perhaps because they dont know any better.

Edited by Xenocow, 01 January 2013 - 08:04 PM.

[TehAdi]

overneathe, on 01 January 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:

Telling someone "you need to use your brain to play a game"... is just not a good thing to do. Especially if you run said game.
And from what I understand the respec mechanic in PoE is super slow to acquire? I'm not experienced with it so not really sure.

I don't care if its good or not, i said i'm not tolerant for brainless gamers.
Nah its not that slow. Respec points are slow but orbs of regret are achievable by dropping, crafting and trading so if you made a mistake which bothers you a lot its not that difficult to get it back.

[Indimix]

Xenocow, on 01 January 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

shaggy, on 01 January 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

They're a company and they work by adhering to procedures for development and deployment.  Are you suggesting they completely scrap internal QA testing?  If so, are you willing to deal with the consequences?  Because, make no mistake, there will be consequences.  The PTR is generally not for alpha releases.  That's why it's called "beta testing" and from what the blues said it sounds very much like PvP did not make it out of alpha.

You know... software development... the same shit that damn near every other company on the planet does.

Apperently internal testing ISN'T WORKING... breaking news buddy.
Why do you think this whole game is such a failure in the first place?
The player was completely scratched from the equation by Blizzard.

As a developer you can't dig thru Millions of Topics on the Forums checking for positiv feedback, thats correct.
But why not put up a Read-only Section, and have the Mods/Guides/MVPs move "good" feedback there for the (real) DEVs to read, and actually respond ?
Why not have DEVs like Jay Wilson contact major Streamers like Kripparian, Athene, KingKongor, Ziss...and actually talk directly to the People who play the Games about Game Mechanics, Ideas, suggestions for improvement and Stuff ?

I posted it on another thread already  here on the Forum.
Chris Wilson (Grinding Gear Games) the DEV / Path of Exile... on Twitch with Kripparian in TS2 talking for hours and hours.
http://www.twitch.tv...06620?t=109m33s

They can do it? Why cant Blizzard ?
Blizzard as of right now could not be further away from the players.

We are just Cattle...with Wallets.

Because they cant.

Let me explain you why, let say, a user in the forum presents a brilliant idea of how to improve, let say, the blacksmith. Damn everyone in the forums agree, the idea gets 100% acceptance from users forums, that same idea go to the devs hands, they read it and they agree is an excellent idea, but there is only one problem, that idea would have as a side effect a reduced use of the RMAH.

Now, please, tell me how the fuck could a developer explain to the users of the forum why that idea wont work, without saying: "it would reduce our RMAH profit" ?

There you go.