53 replies to this topic

[Jaetch]

Emberos, on 20 December 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

Jaetch, on 20 December 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

Disagree! I say wizards are the most vulnerable to Reflect Damage!

No they aren't!

...

Yes, they are!

Edited by Jaetch, 20 December 2012 - 05:44 PM.

[Targariel]

Hasansabbat, on 20 December 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

@Targariel, M8 pls use paragraphs Yet I still did read all Do you think it would be fair if both casual player and a more dedicated player could play at the same difficulty lvl? I think no. So what you should do is either stick with the low MP you are playing and wish for a godly item to drop so that you can upgrade your char.
I even think it is unfair that low lvl drops may roll godly stats.

Sorry about the paragraphs It becomes kinda unreadable with no paragraphs...xD

It's just that casual players won't get the same as someone that has spent 3x more time playing. I like the game and I know that for the time I've played I'm doing fine. What I wanted you to know is that many people that complain about RD are casual players that don't understand that they need more time to build a better character. And you have some that have played more than 1300 hours but just did it all wrong.

Oh look!

Shinny...

Glamorous...

Beautiful...

Paragraphs xD

[Emberos]

Jaetch, on 20 December 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

Disagree! I say wizards are the most vulnerable to Reflect Damage!

Emberos, on 20 December 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

No they aren't!

Jaetch, on 20 December 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

Yes, they are!

Foiled!  And I thought my argument was total checkmate.  But then you reflected it . . . and that was completely OP of you.

Edited by Emberos, 20 December 2012 - 06:54 PM.

[Oxidys]

AudioCG, on 20 December 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

lol, bunch of butt hurt nerds pissed that someone can do what they cannot.

Pretty much every single person I have ever seen complain about reflect damage has terrible Armor/All Resist, little to no health, low LOH/LS, and like 200K+ damage.

Stop making super fragile builds that cannot take any damage.

No.

my barb and monk can face roll RD, that doesnt change the fact that RD as a consept is absurd.  you should never be punished for working to make your charactor stronger.  You should not be forced to use the few skills that can trivialize RD.  RD is the only affix that commands so much out of every player.  "If you do not build like this, gear like this, uninstall D3 because the RD gods command you!"

[AudioCG]

Oxidys, on 20 December 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

AudioCG, on 20 December 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

lol, bunch of butt hurt nerds pissed that someone can do what they cannot.

Pretty much every single person I have ever seen complain about reflect damage has terrible Armor/All Resist, little to no health, low LOH/LS, and like 200K+ damage.

Stop making super fragile builds that cannot take any damage.

No.

my barb and monk can face roll RD, that doesnt change the fact that RD as a consept is absurd.  you should never be punished for working to make your charactor stronger.  You should not be forced to use the few skills that can trivialize RD.  RD is the only affix that commands so much out of every player.  "If you do not build like this, gear like this, uninstall D3 because the RD gods command you!"

So I guess the baseline minimum resists for completing Hell in D2 was terrible?

I guess the massive Vit dump required in D2 was terrible?

All you need is a somewhat reasonable amount of health. (there is alot of room here, you dont need 50K+ health)

SOME form of health input, regen, loh, ls, SOMETHING.

Armor, you need to have some, surprise.

Thats it, thats all you need to deal with RD. (not even skill swaps, build changes, all of this can be done via gear.)

You can in fact make a Glass Cannon, and survive RD, you just need to have some basic survive-ability, Diablo 3 is hardly the first RPG to require this from players, heck, it is not even the first Diablo game to require this from players.

I know you would like to just faceroll the game with nothing but pure offense, sorry to tell you, at least some form of basic defense is required, actually, I cannot think of a SINGLE RPG/ARPG game that this is not true for. (honestly, RD is one of the ONLY affixes that is directly in contrast to extreme damage output, I have to deal with Molten, I cannot avoid it, I NEED to be in Melee range to attack, I cannot avoid molten, ever, thus, I need very much the same things a ranged character would need to deal with said affix.)

Edited by AudioCG, 20 December 2012 - 07:03 PM.

[Hasansabbat]

Küken, on 20 December 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

Now, I don't necessarily think, reflect damage should be nerfed to oblivion. Many people use the argument, RD would be one of the last remaining challenges in the game. I disagree with this argument, because RD is not really a challenge, its more of an unavoidable nuisance, which most of the time forces you in certain gear or build choices you'd rather not take.
However, if you would benefit of these choices for other affixes as well, it wouldn't be that big of a deal. So I say, bring RD to the level of the other affixes and improve those. For any offensively geared character and build, reflect is by far the most dangerous affix, I suggest to equalize the danger of the affixes a little. Reflect could still be the most dangerous, just not ten times more potent than everything else.

I think this could also be a great idea but as you have said they don't buff mobs at all.
Although I might have sounded a bit cocky there I really meant that they should give us MP15-20 if they are to nerf reflect dmg. So I can shift my gear more to the offensive side and clear stuff faster while surviving anything.

[Oxidys]

you can avoid a large majority of molten as a melee, if not all of it if you know what to do.

still cant figure out why you brought in D2, as i dont recall ever comparing...

and no, base line def with health input is not enough.  my 140k dps DH has more defences on her gear then my barb, with 2.8% Life steal on weapon, but because i dont like gloom, i get to die 2 or 3 times to RD without ever getting hit.  there is no skill involved with RD current iteration, why do people want fake difficulty, or simply try to be contrary for the sake of it.

RD is not fun!  who the hell cares if "boo hoo, dont nerf the only hard affix"  how about you start asking for the other to get buffed. instead of dragging down the game with a system that is simply not fun.

[maka]

@AudioCD: No, you don't. You can easily sidestep the molten patches, go around enemies, etc etc. It's bullshit that you "have to stay in molten, so it's the same as RD to melee". Hell, it's beyond bullshit. It's being deliberately dishonest.
The only way to avoid RD completely is to NOT deal any damage.

Also, you say "oh, you don't need any particular skills to deal with RD". Well, I guess it's a coincidence that every WD uses spirit walk, every Monk uses serenity, every DH uses smoke screen/shadow power. Just a big fat coincidence.
Sure, these skills are useful in many situations, but it's my opinion that, were RD to be dropped from the game, many people would be dropping these skills.

Edited by maka, 20 December 2012 - 08:12 PM.

[AudioCG]

maka, on 20 December 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

@AudioCD: No, you don't. You can easily sidestep the molten patches, go around enemies, etc etc. It's bullshit that you "have to stay in molten, so it's the same as RD to melee". Hell, it's beyond bullshit. It's being deliberately dishonest.
The only way to avoid RD completely is to NOT deal any damage.

Also, you say "oh, you don't need any particular skills to deal with RD". Well, I guess it's a coincidence that every WD uses spirit walk, every Monk uses serenity, every DH uses smoke screen/shadow power. Just a big fat coincidence.
Sure, these skills are useful in many situations, but it's my opinion that, were RD to be dropped from the game, many people would be dropping these skills.

I don't think people would drop those skills if RD was removed at all.

The survive-ability skills are universally chosen because of how potent they are, and how "un-potent" the alternatives are.

But sure, remove RD, and pretty much any other remotely difficult thing from Diablo 3, why not?

(hilarious coming from someone who claims super early/pre patched Diablo 2 was the greatest game of all time, a game that included Iron Maiden............)

Also "fake difficulty" (@ Oxidys)

DIABLO HAS ALWAYS USED "Fake Difficulty", heck, the series is literally BASED ON THAT CONCEPT FFS.

Honestly, it doesn't matter, as per usual, endless QQ will cause Blizz to endlessly nerf their games, it has happened to literally every single game they have ever made, and then after the fact, people complain about it. (for reference, Diablo, WoW and SC)

The circle jerk never ends. Seriously, people are already asking for "Invulnerable" to come back, Blizz will nerf RD into nothing, then people will pop up 6 months down the road, and complain that the game is too easy, and the monster affixes should be more potent.

We are already seeing people talking about missing pre 1.03 difficulty.

Edited by AudioCG, 20 December 2012 - 08:29 PM.

[Hasansabbat]

maka, on 20 December 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

@AudioCD: No, you don't. You can easily sidestep the molten patches, go around enemies, etc etc. It's bullshit that you "have to stay in molten, so it's the same as RD to melee". Hell, it's beyond bullshit. It's being deliberately dishonest.
The only way to avoid RD completely is to NOT deal any damage.

Also, you say "oh, you don't need any particular skills to deal with RD". Well, I guess it's a coincidence that every WD uses spirit walk, every Monk uses serenity, every DH uses smoke screen/shadow power. Just a big fat coincidence.
Sure, these skills are useful in many situations, but it's my opinion that, were RD to be dropped from the game, many people would be dropping these skills.

I use spirit walk to run faster between trash/packs and to regen my mana. You miss a huge point in this video which is about the clearing speed. If I change one of my passives to the Jungle fortidute which provides %15 less dmg taken I totally become immune to reflect packs. I don't see my HP going up down etc. but my clearing speed becomes lower.

So as you see there are many ways to avoid reflect dmg. Monks I play with don't get serenity while barbs dont get war cry. And MP10 is our regular farming run I don't do MP10 to shoot videos.

[AudioCG]

Hasansabbat, on 20 December 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

maka, on 20 December 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

@AudioCD: No, you don't. You can easily sidestep the molten patches, go around enemies, etc etc. It's bullshit that you "have to stay in molten, so it's the same as RD to melee". Hell, it's beyond bullshit. It's being deliberately dishonest.
The only way to avoid RD completely is to NOT deal any damage.

Also, you say "oh, you don't need any particular skills to deal with RD". Well, I guess it's a coincidence that every WD uses spirit walk, every Monk uses serenity, every DH uses smoke screen/shadow power. Just a big fat coincidence.
Sure, these skills are useful in many situations, but it's my opinion that, were RD to be dropped from the game, many people would be dropping these skills.

I use spirit walk to run faster between trash/packs and to regen my mana. You miss a huge point in this video which is about the clearing speed. If I change one of my passives to the Jungle fortidute which provides %15 less dmg taken I totally become immune to reflect packs. I don't see my HP going up down etc. but my clearing speed becomes lower.

So as you see there are many ways to avoid reflect dmg. Monks I play with don't get serenity while barbs dont get war cry. And MP10 is our regular farming run I don't do MP10 to shoot videos.

They aren't interested in actually doing anything about RD themselves, they just will rant and rage until Blizzard nerfs it out of the game.

[NirXY]

it's a bad design for the affix, I see it as a fix, not as a nerf.
also, Thorns doesn't do % damage, if it would've - it would be OP.
no reason RD does.

[AudioCG]

NirXY, on 20 December 2012 - 09:07 PM, said:

it's a bad design for the affix, I see it as a fix, not as a nerf.
also, Thorns doesn't do % damage, if it would've - it would be OP.
no reason RD does.

That awkward moment when you realize Blizz is making adjustments to Thorns, more then likely via direct relation to stats/damage...

http://us.battle.net...56089?page=3#53

Edited by AudioCG, 20 December 2012 - 09:28 PM.

[Emberos]

On topic: there are certain packs that are indeed broken right now with reflect (health link and certain champ packs) and blizzard has acknowledged this.  These should be fixed.  Other than that, adding in some defense and life steal seems to solve the problem even at very high damage output (top 1% type character damage output).  Jaetch or someone with top .1% damage output would have to weigh in about RD at those levels. From my perspective, I would say some visual indication of reflects would be a good addition but, other than that and fixing known bugs, I don't see a need for an affix redesign or nerf.

Edited by Emberos, 20 December 2012 - 09:35 PM.

[maka]

Just to clarify: I wasn't saying that RD should be removed from the game. I was saying that, were RD to be removed from the game, some people would start dropping skills like serenity and smoke screen, which says a lot about how RD limits skill choices.

And Iron Maiden was shit...so what? What's your point?

Edited by maka, 20 December 2012 - 09:35 PM.

[Oxidys]

i like to see how weak people's arguments are by how often they pick a single phrase or sentance, and think if they reply to just that, it automatically makes their point of view right.

its clearly time for me to leave this troll bait thread.   instead of adding difficulty in fun and meaningful ways, people insist on banging their face into a curb to pretend its "a challange".

[AudioCG]

maka, on 20 December 2012 - 09:33 PM, said:

Just to clarify: I wasn't saying that RD should be removed from the game. I was saying that, were RD to be removed from the game, some people would start dropping skills like serenity and smoke screen, which says a lot about how RD limits skill choices.

And Iron Maiden was shit...so what? What's your point?

And I honestly dont think dropping RD would cause them to all of the sudden not use the best defesive abilities in the game, due to the lackluster "other" options. (possibly if Blizz actually buffs some alternatives)

Your own stance was that Diablo 2 before all the patches was the best version of Diablo 2 that existed, that the continued patches "ruined" the game.

Now, Iron Maiden was "shit", and it was a good change?

Edited by AudioCG, 20 December 2012 - 10:01 PM.

[AudioCG]

Oxidys, on 20 December 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

i like to see how weak people's arguments are by how often they pick a single phrase or sentance, and think if they reply to just that, it automatically makes their point of view right.

its clearly time for me to leave this troll bait thread.   instead of adding difficulty in fun and meaningful ways, people insist on banging their face into a curb to pretend its "a challange".

Its Challenge BTW.

Ok, how would you suggest they make RD more challenging but in a different form?

Im all ears.

[AudioCG]

Emberos, on 20 December 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

On topic: there are certain packs that are indeed broken right now with reflect (health link and certain champ packs) and blizzard has acknowledged this.  These should be fixed. Other than that, adding in some defense and life steal seems to solve the problem even at very high damage output (top 1% type character damage output).  Jaetch or someone with top .1% damage output would have to weigh in about RD at those levels. From my perspective, I would say some visual indication of reflects would be a good addition but, other than that and fixing known bugs, I don't see a need for an affix redesign or nerf.

Exactly, but apparently, these simple things are far to restrictive for the player base.

[Jaetch]

Emberos, on 20 December 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

Jaetch, on 20 December 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

Disagree! I say wizards are the most vulnerable to Reflect Damage!

Emberos, on 20 December 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

No they aren't!

Jaetch, on 20 December 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

Yes, they are!

Foiled!  And I thought my argument was total checkmate.  But then you reflected it . . . and that was completely OP of you.

I see what you did there.

AudioCG, on 20 December 2012 - 09:52 PM, said:

Its Challenge BTW.

Ok, how would you suggest they make RD more challenging but in a different form?

Im all ears.

They can make RD trigger on activation like shielding (with graphics to show). They can also make it reverse projectiles (at X% of its damage), and having those projectiles also hit friendlies. Would make co-op interesting if a bunch of DH arrows start hitting teammates. I dunno. I'm actually perfectly okay with RD as it is.

Edited by Jaetch, 20 December 2012 - 10:09 PM.