89 replies to this topic

[vastling]

@Meepro

My point really is that all mobs have a timer of sorts with the nv stacks.
It's a soft enrage.

Hard enrages like Kul's are to stop people from gy zerging or doing other cheesy tactics to get a kill.
It fights cheesy tactics with a cheesy tactic.

Different boss fights should have different mechanics to spice the game up.  
If every fight is the same the game gets boring and stale.  (EQ raiding for years was like this with some slight variations)

Every fight has something you need to avoid, or watch out for until you out gear it.

Enrage is a mechanic that you have to figure out how beat it.

In one fight we actually went over the time limit but between 2 cm wizards and stomp were able to actually kill him after the time period.  (Cm wizards for me fall in the cheesy tactic range)

Again I personally prefer stacking debuffs or stacking dmg which is alot more fun to me then getting one shot.

Enrage as a mechanic is good, it keeps fights short and allows gear checks without them being the stupidity that was act 2 when the game came out.

[maka]

Why is having low dps/high defence a cheesy tactic, and having high dps/low defence is not?

[Meepro]

How do you gy (graveyard right?) zerg a boss solo?
How is taking a couple minutes longer equivalent to playing cheesy?
Even with super high defensive stats you can't ignore boss mechanics especially on Kulle+Siegebreaker (we're talking about mp10 right?).

Your EQ example actually applies to people who outgear that content

[Shinjed]

Solmyr77, on 18 December 2012 - 03:55 PM, said:

maka, on 18 December 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:

Enrage timers encourage class cannon builds and suppress tank builds. Why one should be more valid than the other.

Just plain wrong. I could as well say: "Monsters dealing damage encourage tank builds and suppress glass cannon builds."
You need to have a balance of survival and offensive output. If either of them was obsolete because you could win without it, the design would be flawed.

I'd love to be able to think the way you do I personally have hated enrage timers in all games, ever. It's a totally retarded mechanic!

You survive and fight a boss or w/e for 10 minutes, right before he dies he just goes apeshit on you, dealing 100x his normal damage. Other times he dies aswell. Why is it, if he is so god damn powerful, that he dies sometimes at all? If he can one shot you when he is nearly dead, what shouldn't he be able to do uninjured at full health? Retarded mechanic is retarded.

[vastling]

@maka
tanking is not cheesy and unfortunately it is punished by enrage.
Cheesy tactics are things like z order exploitation (pathing)- and yes they exist in this game it's just not normally worth the time
Infinite stuns to me fall in this category (cm wizards)

I believe there was a video of 4 monks stun locking diablo as well, basically anything that lets you ignore boss mechanics and mindlessly follow a rotation.

@Meepro
Gy zerg would be in a 4 player game

You don't need defensive stats for siege and kulle, you would just need to be able to kite.  They increased siege speed but it is still very doable.

The enrage stops people from running around in circles until siege dies to tornadoes, you have to go toe to toe and keep dps up on kulle at the same time.  It changes the fight significantly.

The enrage is a mechanic that must be overcome.

Mechanics that make you stretch are good things.

yet again stacking debuffs, increased attack speed, more dmg are the enrage mechanics I like.  You still have a window where things are getting out of control but aren't out of control yet.  I prefer those enrage mechanics over instant whipes.

[Shinjed]

vastling, on 18 December 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

yet again stacking debuffs, increased attack speed, more dmg are the enrage mechanics I like.  You still have a window where things are getting out of control but aren't out of control yet.  I prefer those enrage mechanics over instant whipes.

Amen. That's atleast something you can see coming and really gets you pumping when the tanks gets more and more damage. That's atleast a plausable way to make an "enrage" and it actually makes sense.

[maka]

@vastling: Oh, OK,sorry I misunderstood you, then.

And I like your suggestion of making ubers enrage progressively, instead of 'going from 0 to 100' instantly.

Edited by maka, 18 December 2012 - 07:24 PM.

[AudioCG]

maka, on 18 December 2012 - 07:24 PM, said:

@vastling: Oh, OK,sorry I misunderstood you, then.

And I like your suggestion of making ubers enrage progressively, instead of 'going from 0 to 100' instantly.

Every minute past enrage gives a 10% increase in whatever, not a bad idea.

[duckwilliamson]

D3 built around efficiency and killing faster for more gains. I don't understand why Blizzard wants to force this on everyone via enrage timers: they need to go.

If you want to be tanky and take 50 mins to kill something, that's your own perogative and it's not going to be an "iwin button" for anyone, in fact it's quite the opposite. That's 48 more minutes of not inflating the economy, so why would anyone be against it?

[Meepro]

Siegebreaker takes dmg from Kulle's tornados? Cool, didnt know.
Still, nobody would start doing this if they removed the enrage. You would lose your stacks, you would be awfully inefficient. Even if a few people would do this... is it bad for you? Is it bad for anyone? Is it bad for them? I guess not if they're having fun.

[AudioCG]

Meepro, on 18 December 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

Siegebreaker takes dmg from Kulle's tornados? Cool, didnt know.
Still, nobody would start doing this if they removed the enrage. You would lose your stacks, you would be awfully inefficient. Even if a few people would do this... is it bad for you? Is it bad for anyone? Is it bad for them? I guess not if they're having fun.

I believe he was referring to WW Barb Sprint tornadoes.

[maka]

@Meepro: I think he was talking about Barb's tornadoes
But I might be wrong.

EDIT: Noooo, AudioCG beat me to it

Edited by maka, 18 December 2012 - 07:34 PM.

[Meepro]

Aren't barbs doing that anyway?

[AudioCG]

Meepro, on 18 December 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

Aren't barbs doing that anyway?

Not THIS Barb.

[Jaetch]

Jaetch, on 18 December 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

I say they could keep the Enrage, but tone it down so that it makes the fight more difficult, but not absolutely impossible.

vastling, on 18 December 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

The enrage is a mechanic that must be overcome.

Mechanics that make you stretch are good things.

yet again stacking debuffs, increased attack speed, more dmg are the enrage mechanics I like.  You still have a window where things are getting out of control but aren't out of control yet.  I prefer those enrage mechanics over instant whipes.

maka, on 18 December 2012 - 07:24 PM, said:

And I like your suggestion of making ubers enrage progressively, instead of 'going from 0 to 100' instantly.

AudioCG, on 18 December 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

Every minute past enrage gives a 10% increase in whatever, not a bad idea.

Let's forward stuff to Blizzard.

[Syronicus]

maka, on 17 December 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

GamersTales, on 17 December 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

Enrage shouldn't be in ARPG's. This is an addition from the WoW devs. *Slow clap*

Agree. I don't see the point in having this type of mechanics in a game like Diablo.

To show my support, I agree. They have no place in the game.

[Bleedxd]

Meepro, on 18 December 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:

vastling: the question is... why is an enrage even needed when you have that "quasi enrage" called NV stacks?
Removing the enrage would not influence anyone other than people with low dmg (due to gear or build, doesnt matter). Would it be bad for anyone that can kill those bosses within the enrage atm? Absolutely not. Would people like the OP suddenly be more efficient in this game? Guess what... no!
The only thing that changes is that people like the OP can CHOOSE which build they want to play based on how much fun they are having with it without having an arbitrary roadblock called enrage.

Im pretty sure the other 3 people he's playing with want to have fun aswell, and having to carry a 33k WD through mp10 is surely not many people's idea of fun. Sorry, this is a multiplayer game.

[maka]

Bleedxd, on 19 December 2012 - 02:07 AM, said:

Im pretty sure the other 3 people he's playing with want to have fun aswell, and having to carry a 33k WD through mp10 is surely not many people's idea of fun.

What other 3 people? I didn't see any mention of other people

Bleedxd, on 19 December 2012 - 02:07 AM, said:

Sorry, this is a multiplayer game.

Stop it. Just....stop it.

[ruksak]

I don't want them to do anything to make the game easier than it already is. Frankly, it needs more difficulty installed other than just the MP setting.

That being said, enrage timers seem out of place in Diablo games.

[itirnitii]

I agree. Enrage timers only put players in a box that is unnecessary. We should be encouraging build diversity (like slower builds with high EHP and low damage).