39 replies to this topic

[nuhertz]

I believe MP4 and MP5 are the most efficient Monster Power levels to loot items.  The math seems straight forward, and my unscientific in game play seems to confirm.

I'd love to hear thoughts on if you think this is correct or not.

Assumptions:

You do the same amount of damage in all MP levels.
You can handle the incoming damage in all MP levels.
Length of runs are directly correlated to Monster Health.

I think MP4 or MP5 is the sweet spot.

When you take the increase in health, and divide it by the bonuses you get with each MP, MP4 and MP5 get roughly the best bonuses.  After that, the health of the monsters scales up far more than the additional bonuses.

I'd bet with a large sample size and the best characters you'd see the best returns on MP4 or MP5.

With budget characters that die on MP4 and MP5, it obviously will not be the same story.

The ratios in the link below show what the cost is in health for each % of the given stat.  So for MP1, for every 15% health bonus given to monsters, you get 1% more XP.  It drops to 10% health/xp around MP4-5, and then starts going back up.  Same story for MF/GF and bonus items.

https://docs.google....TWc&output=html

Edited by nuhertz, 15 December 2012 - 07:54 AM.

[Ducha]

I believe you're looking for this!

[nuhertz]

I was trying to paste in a table, but failed miserably.  Linked a google document.

[shadowbane]

nuhertz, on 15 December 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

Assumptions:

You do the same amount of damage in all MP levels.
You can handle the incoming damage in all MP levels.
Length of runs are directly correlated to Monster Health.

I think MP4 or MP5 is the sweet spot.

When you take the increase in health, and divide it by the bonuses you get with each MP, MP4 and MP5 get roughly the best bonuses.  After that, the health of the monsters scales up far more than the additional bonuses.

Sorry, not quite sure what you're getting at here. The increase in health is a multiplied percentage bonus i.e. HP' = HP*Bonus/100 whereas the other bonuses you mention are an additive/added percentage bonus i.e. MF' = MF + Bonus; Items' = Items*(1+BonusItem/100)

I believe an apt formula for loot efficiency comparison (with your assumptions) would be
[(1+BonusItem/100)(1+(BaseMF+BonusMF)/100)/(BonusHealth/100)]

In which case you'd see the following (MF = 0 and 300 resp.):
MP Level MP0 MP1 MP2 MP3 MP4 MP5 MP6 MP7 MP8 MP9 MP10
Efficiency 1 0.84 0.72 0.63 0.55 0.48 0.41 0.35 0.29 0.24 0.204  
Efficiency 4 2.86 2.16 1.7 1.38 1.12 0.9 0.73 0.58 0.47 0.378

which shows diminishing returns in efficiency for higher MP's.

The only way in which higher MP's would be better for loot and xp in terms of efficiency are when your damage is high enough that your kill rate no longer scales with monster health (i.e. you one shot all mobs)

Edit: Clarity

Edited by shadowbane, 15 December 2012 - 08:31 AM.

[tommmmmm]

I've seen you Shadowbane trying to explain, not only in this topic, to noobs, mathematically, that mp0 is best for paragon and xp and legendaries. I have one piece of advice to you:



After watching that please adjust your expectations of the community you are trying to be part of.

[egervari]

nuhertz, on 15 December 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

I believe MP4 and MP5 are the most efficient Monster Power levels to loot items.  The math seems straight forward, and my unscientific in game play seems to confirm.

I'd love to hear thoughts on if you think this is correct or not.

Assumptions:

You do the same amount of damage in all MP levels.
You can handle the incoming damage in all MP levels.
Length of runs are directly correlated to Monster Health.

I think MP4 or MP5 is the sweet spot.

When you take the increase in health, and divide it by the bonuses you get with each MP, MP4 and MP5 get roughly the best bonuses.  After that, the health of the monsters scales up far more than the additional bonuses.

I'd bet with a large sample size and the best characters you'd see the best returns on MP4 or MP5.

With budget characters that die on MP4 and MP5, it obviously will not be the same story.

The ratios in the link below show what the cost is in health for each % of the given stat.  So for MP1, for every 15% health bonus given to monsters, you get 1% more XP.  It drops to 10% health/xp around MP4-5, and then starts going back up.  Same story for MF/GF and bonus items.

I don't think so. The monster scaling always gets worse compared to the dps a character can accumulate. While it's possible to DO MP5+, it is usually not efficient even with average to great gear. Only super gear might be able to do it efficiently, but as you can see on diablo progress, almost everyone doesn't have that.

Speaking in terms of a Demon Hunter that does around 200k dps, I won't ever farm past MP2. MP1/2 is about the sweet spot for me as MP3 is just too slow. The practical maximum I can imagine my Demon Hunter doing efficiently is maybe MP3, and that would be doing 275k dps. I really don't see myself being able to acquire the gear to do MP4 efficiently. MP5 and over are basically out of the question. You'd have to have super gear to do those levels efficiently.

Basically, if an alkaizer run takes you longer than 10 minutes, then you're doing it too slow, and you WILL get more xp and drops by going a level lower until you can do it in 10 minutes. If your class just can't do any of the levels - even MP0 - in 10 minutes no matter what you do, then it's time to change classes or really focus on getting better gear. But not all classes can move quickly. That is just how the game works, because not all classes are made equal when it comes to farming.

The real problem with the MP level system is that the bonuses are not worth the added time it takes to kill the monsters. It's only worth it if you can defeat MPX+1 in the same time as MPX because your DPS is really good and you're moving as fast through the areas as possible. If MPX+1 takes even a minute or two longer per run, it's likely not as efficient as MPX.

Edited by egervari, 15 December 2012 - 08:49 AM.

[bluesoldiervi]

egervari, on 15 December 2012 - 08:46 AM, said:

nuhertz, on 15 December 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

I believe MP4 and MP5 are the most efficient Monster Power levels to loot items.  The math seems straight forward, and my unscientific in game play seems to confirm.

I'd love to hear thoughts on if you think this is correct or not.

Assumptions:

You do the same amount of damage in all MP levels.
You can handle the incoming damage in all MP levels.
Length of runs are directly correlated to Monster Health.

I think MP4 or MP5 is the sweet spot.

When you take the increase in health, and divide it by the bonuses you get with each MP, MP4 and MP5 get roughly the best bonuses.  After that, the health of the monsters scales up far more than the additional bonuses.

I'd bet with a large sample size and the best characters you'd see the best returns on MP4 or MP5.

With budget characters that die on MP4 and MP5, it obviously will not be the same story.

The ratios in the link below show what the cost is in health for each % of the given stat.  So for MP1, for every 15% health bonus given to monsters, you get 1% more XP.  It drops to 10% health/xp around MP4-5, and then starts going back up.  Same story for MF/GF and bonus items.

I don't think so. The monster scaling always gets worse compared to the dps a character can accumulate. While it's possible to DO MP5+, it is usually not efficient even with average to great gear. Only super gear might be able to do it efficiently, but as you can see on diablo progress, almost everyone doesn't have that.

Speaking in terms of a Demon Hunter that does around 200k dps, I won't ever farm past MP2. MP1/2 is about the sweet spot for me as MP3 is just too slow. The practical maximum I can imagine my Demon Hunter doing efficiently is maybe MP3, and that would be doing 275k dps. I really don't see myself being able to acquire the gear to do MP4 efficiently. MP5 and over are basically out of the question. You'd have to have super gear to do those levels efficiently.

Basically, if an alkaizer run takes you longer than 10 minutes, then you're doing it too slow, and you WILL get more xp and drops by going a level lower until you can do it in 10 minutes. If your class just can't do any of the levels - even MP0 - in 10 minutes no matter what you do, then it's time to change classes or really focus on getting better gear. But not all classes can move quickly. That is just how the game works, because not all classes are made equal when it comes to farming.

The real problem with the MP level system is that the bonuses are not worth the added time it takes to kill the monsters. It's only worth it if you can defeat MPX+1 in the same time as MPX because your DPS is really good and you're moving as fast through the areas as possible. If MPX+1 takes even a minute or two longer per run, it's likely not as efficient as MPX.

I disagree with the its never worth it to go past 10 minutes. I do mp0 on 9 mins on my barb and i do mp3 in 10 mins. I'd take the 20% increase in xp/mf and the bonus item and less of a chance for rng to screw me over, over a 10-12% increase in time.

[Deliverer972]

nuhertz, on 15 December 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

I believe MP4 and MP5 are the most efficient Monster Power levels to loot items.  The math seems straight forward, and my unscientific in game play seems to confirm.

I'd love to hear thoughts on if you think this is correct or not.

Assumptions:

You do the same amount of damage in all MP levels.
You can handle the incoming damage in all MP levels.
Length of runs are directly correlated to Monster Health.

I think MP4 or MP5 is the sweet spot.

When you take the increase in health, and divide it by the bonuses you get with each MP, MP4 and MP5 get roughly the best bonuses.  After that, the health of the monsters scales up far more than the additional bonuses.

I'd bet with a large sample size and the best characters you'd see the best returns on MP4 or MP5.

With budget characters that die on MP4 and MP5, it obviously will not be the same story.

The ratios in the link below show what the cost is in health for each % of the given stat.  So for MP1, for every 15% health bonus given to monsters, you get 1% more XP.  It drops to 10% health/xp around MP4-5, and then starts going back up.  Same story for MF/GF and bonus items.

Thats fine and dandy, but you dont factor in anything else that affects MF and gold find.  Add 75 to MF,GF and XP bonuses and see how that changes the ratios.  Add a star ruby (+25% experience) to those ratios.  Add whatever MF your paragon is with MF from your gear and your follower.  As those numbers go up, the bonuses from higher MP have less of an effect.  Note: All +% bonuses are added together first, so a 10% gain and a 10% gain from a mob that would normally give you 100 xp, gives you 120 exp (100 * 1.2), not 121 (100 * 1.1 * 1.1)

For example,  going from 200% XP with 5stack valor and a star ruby, to 210% xp (with MP1) is only a 5% gain from what you would've had without the MP bonus.  

As shadow bane stated, each successive MP gives less of a reward bonus factoring in 5stack, and that gets further diminished with any +EXP/GF/MF your character brings to the table.  The only time it really makes sense from an efficiency side is if your DPS overpowers the health of the mob, so there is negligible clear time difference from raising the MP.

[Xenocow]

nuhertz, on 15 December 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

I believe MP4 and MP5 are the most efficient Monster Power levels to loot items.  The math seems straight forward, and my unscientific in game play seems to confirm.

Mobs at MP1 have 150% HP, while the Mobs on MP5 have 639% HP (factor 4.26)

Max MF on MP1 is 400%, while Max MF on MP5 is 500%  (factor 1.25)

So basicly on MP5 your Mobs have 4.26 times more HP, but you get only 1.25 times more MF.

MP1 is the Legendary Heaven
You kill super fast, you have no downtimes, you dont die.

[egervari]

bluesoldiervi, on 15 December 2012 - 08:59 AM, said:

egervari, on 15 December 2012 - 08:46 AM, said:

nuhertz, on 15 December 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

I believe MP4 and MP5 are the most efficient Monster Power levels to loot items.  The math seems straight forward, and my unscientific in game play seems to confirm.

I'd love to hear thoughts on if you think this is correct or not.

Assumptions:

You do the same amount of damage in all MP levels.
You can handle the incoming damage in all MP levels.
Length of runs are directly correlated to Monster Health.

I think MP4 or MP5 is the sweet spot.

When you take the increase in health, and divide it by the bonuses you get with each MP, MP4 and MP5 get roughly the best bonuses.  After that, the health of the monsters scales up far more than the additional bonuses.

I'd bet with a large sample size and the best characters you'd see the best returns on MP4 or MP5.

With budget characters that die on MP4 and MP5, it obviously will not be the same story.

The ratios in the link below show what the cost is in health for each % of the given stat.  So for MP1, for every 15% health bonus given to monsters, you get 1% more XP.  It drops to 10% health/xp around MP4-5, and then starts going back up.  Same story for MF/GF and bonus items.

I don't think so. The monster scaling always gets worse compared to the dps a character can accumulate. While it's possible to DO MP5+, it is usually not efficient even with average to great gear. Only super gear might be able to do it efficiently, but as you can see on diablo progress, almost everyone doesn't have that.

Speaking in terms of a Demon Hunter that does around 200k dps, I won't ever farm past MP2. MP1/2 is about the sweet spot for me as MP3 is just too slow. The practical maximum I can imagine my Demon Hunter doing efficiently is maybe MP3, and that would be doing 275k dps. I really don't see myself being able to acquire the gear to do MP4 efficiently. MP5 and over are basically out of the question. You'd have to have super gear to do those levels efficiently.

Basically, if an alkaizer run takes you longer than 10 minutes, then you're doing it too slow, and you WILL get more xp and drops by going a level lower until you can do it in 10 minutes. If your class just can't do any of the levels - even MP0 - in 10 minutes no matter what you do, then it's time to change classes or really focus on getting better gear. But not all classes can move quickly. That is just how the game works, because not all classes are made equal when it comes to farming.

The real problem with the MP level system is that the bonuses are not worth the added time it takes to kill the monsters. It's only worth it if you can defeat MPX+1 in the same time as MPX because your DPS is really good and you're moving as fast through the areas as possible. If MPX+1 takes even a minute or two longer per run, it's likely not as efficient as MPX.

I disagree with the its never worth it to go past 10 minutes. I do mp0 on 9 mins on my barb and i do mp3 in 10 mins. I'd take the 20% increase in xp/mf and the bonus item and less of a chance for rng to screw me over, over a 10-12% increase in time.

MP0 is basically the exception to the timing rule, because you obviously get a lot less bonuses compared to MP1 even. The bonus drops do add up.

Besides, I didn't say MPX+3 compared to MPX, I said MPX+1 compared to MPX. If there is only a 10% difference in time from MP0 to MP3, you shouldn't be running MP0 anyway.

So, you're being rather dishonest with your post since you're disagreeing with me based on an example that doesn't form to anything I actually wrote in my post. Skipping 3 MP levels obviously gives plenty more bonuses than just 1 level to make the 10% added time worth it. I never said 3 levels - I said 1.

Edited by egervari, 15 December 2012 - 09:58 AM.

[Kyoob]

bluesoldiervi, on 15 December 2012 - 08:59 AM, said:

egervari, on 15 December 2012 - 08:46 AM, said:

nuhertz, on 15 December 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

I believe MP4 and MP5 are the most efficient Monster Power levels to loot items.  The math seems straight forward, and my unscientific in game play seems to confirm.

I'd love to hear thoughts on if you think this is correct or not.

Assumptions:

You do the same amount of damage in all MP levels.
You can handle the incoming damage in all MP levels.
Length of runs are directly correlated to Monster Health.

I think MP4 or MP5 is the sweet spot.

When you take the increase in health, and divide it by the bonuses you get with each MP, MP4 and MP5 get roughly the best bonuses.  After that, the health of the monsters scales up far more than the additional bonuses.

I'd bet with a large sample size and the best characters you'd see the best returns on MP4 or MP5.

With budget characters that die on MP4 and MP5, it obviously will not be the same story.

The ratios in the link below show what the cost is in health for each % of the given stat.  So for MP1, for every 15% health bonus given to monsters, you get 1% more XP.  It drops to 10% health/xp around MP4-5, and then starts going back up.  Same story for MF/GF and bonus items.

I don't think so. The monster scaling always gets worse compared to the dps a character can accumulate. While it's possible to DO MP5+, it is usually not efficient even with average to great gear. Only super gear might be able to do it efficiently, but as you can see on diablo progress, almost everyone doesn't have that.

Speaking in terms of a Demon Hunter that does around 200k dps, I won't ever farm past MP2. MP1/2 is about the sweet spot for me as MP3 is just too slow. The practical maximum I can imagine my Demon Hunter doing efficiently is maybe MP3, and that would be doing 275k dps. I really don't see myself being able to acquire the gear to do MP4 efficiently. MP5 and over are basically out of the question. You'd have to have super gear to do those levels efficiently.

Basically, if an alkaizer run takes you longer than 10 minutes, then you're doing it too slow, and you WILL get more xp and drops by going a level lower until you can do it in 10 minutes. If your class just can't do any of the levels - even MP0 - in 10 minutes no matter what you do, then it's time to change classes or really focus on getting better gear. But not all classes can move quickly. That is just how the game works, because not all classes are made equal when it comes to farming.

The real problem with the MP level system is that the bonuses are not worth the added time it takes to kill the monsters. It's only worth it if you can defeat MPX+1 in the same time as MPX because your DPS is really good and you're moving as fast through the areas as possible. If MPX+1 takes even a minute or two longer per run, it's likely not as efficient as MPX.

I disagree with the its never worth it to go past 10 minutes. I do mp0 on 9 mins on my barb and i do mp3 in 10 mins. I'd take the 20% increase in xp/mf and the bonus item and less of a chance for rng to screw me over, over a 10-12% increase in time.

If you do 9mins MP0 and 10mins MP3, you must have above average/very good gear. Therefore HP difference of mobs in MP0-3 is not affecting you (well, only by 1min overall) and it is more efficient for you to farm MP3... So it still does not disprove the general idea of MP0 being the most efficient.

However, OP was wrong with his assumptions, because the bonuses do not stack multiplicatively, but rather as an addition to any existing bonus. Also assumption that X% increase in mobs HP is X% increase in time is not always valid, but might be used as a simplification.

[Huminator]

Only an idiot would try to convince people mp5 is efficient. You can't argue with an idiot. So ill stop here. We have had similar discussion in the WD forum, and even after 15 pages the "mp5 sayers" still did not get it.

[SoAmazin]

Well, the 100% chance for an extra item is nice.

[bluesoldiervi]

egervari, on 15 December 2012 - 09:41 AM, said:

bluesoldiervi, on 15 December 2012 - 08:59 AM, said:

egervari, on 15 December 2012 - 08:46 AM, said:

nuhertz, on 15 December 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

I believe MP4 and MP5 are the most efficient Monster Power levels to loot items.  The math seems straight forward, and my unscientific in game play seems to confirm.

I'd love to hear thoughts on if you think this is correct or not.

Assumptions:

You do the same amount of damage in all MP levels.
You can handle the incoming damage in all MP levels.
Length of runs are directly correlated to Monster Health.

I think MP4 or MP5 is the sweet spot.

When you take the increase in health, and divide it by the bonuses you get with each MP, MP4 and MP5 get roughly the best bonuses.  After that, the health of the monsters scales up far more than the additional bonuses.

I'd bet with a large sample size and the best characters you'd see the best returns on MP4 or MP5.

With budget characters that die on MP4 and MP5, it obviously will not be the same story.

The ratios in the link below show what the cost is in health for each % of the given stat.  So for MP1, for every 15% health bonus given to monsters, you get 1% more XP.  It drops to 10% health/xp around MP4-5, and then starts going back up.  Same story for MF/GF and bonus items.

I don't think so. The monster scaling always gets worse compared to the dps a character can accumulate. While it's possible to DO MP5+, it is usually not efficient even with average to great gear. Only super gear might be able to do it efficiently, but as you can see on diablo progress, almost everyone doesn't have that.

Speaking in terms of a Demon Hunter that does around 200k dps, I won't ever farm past MP2. MP1/2 is about the sweet spot for me as MP3 is just too slow. The practical maximum I can imagine my Demon Hunter doing efficiently is maybe MP3, and that would be doing 275k dps. I really don't see myself being able to acquire the gear to do MP4 efficiently. MP5 and over are basically out of the question. You'd have to have super gear to do those levels efficiently.

Basically, if an alkaizer run takes you longer than 10 minutes, then you're doing it too slow, and you WILL get more xp and drops by going a level lower until you can do it in 10 minutes. If your class just can't do any of the levels - even MP0 - in 10 minutes no matter what you do, then it's time to change classes or really focus on getting better gear. But not all classes can move quickly. That is just how the game works, because not all classes are made equal when it comes to farming.

The real problem with the MP level system is that the bonuses are not worth the added time it takes to kill the monsters. It's only worth it if you can defeat MPX+1 in the same time as MPX because your DPS is really good and you're moving as fast through the areas as possible. If MPX+1 takes even a minute or two longer per run, it's likely not as efficient as MPX.

I disagree with the its never worth it to go past 10 minutes. I do mp0 on 9 mins on my barb and i do mp3 in 10 mins. I'd take the 20% increase in xp/mf and the bonus item and less of a chance for rng to screw me over, over a 10-12% increase in time.

MP0 is basically the exception to the timing rule, because you obviously get a lot less bonuses compared to MP1 even. The bonus drops do add up.

Besides, I didn't say MPX+3 compared to MPX, I said MPX+1 compared to MPX. If there is only a 10% difference in time from MP0 to MP3, you shouldn't be running MP0 anyway.

So, you're being rather dishonest with your post since you're disagreeing with me based on an example that doesn't form to anything I actually wrote in my post. Skipping 3 MP levels obviously gives plenty more bonuses than just 1 level to make the 10% added time worth it. I never said 3 levels - I said 1.

Basically, if an alkaizer run takes you longer than 10 minutes, then you're doing it too slow, and you WILL get more xp and drops by going a level lower until you can do it in 10 minutes.

[Huminator]

SoAmazin, on 15 December 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

Well, the 100% chance for an extra item is nice.

You do know that the extra item does not mean its a rare right? Heck almost all the time, it means you get an extra white or blue drop, even a potion. It gives a tiny bit of extra rares. Thats true. But its FAR from enough to make up for the lower farm speed mp5 brings. Which again confirms the low mp is best to farm loot on. The math in charts confirms that aswell.

Edited by Huminator, 15 December 2012 - 11:02 AM.

[Astrand]

Kyoob, on 15 December 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

However, OP was wrong with his assumptions, because the bonuses do not stack multiplicatively, but rather as an addition to any existing bonus. Also assumption that X% increase in mobs HP is X% increase in time is not always valid, but might be used as a simplification.

MF bonus is additive, but additional item% is multiplicative. So on MP3 you get ~17% more legendaries and rares from trash mobs (actually more, since additional item can't be gold). It all depends on gear, for majority of players MP0 might be the way to go, but it's not true that higher difficulties can't be most efficient.

Edited by Astrand, 15 December 2012 - 11:47 AM.

[Xenocow]

SoAmazin, on 15 December 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

Well, the 100% chance for an extra item is nice.

3439% HP (MP10) <---> 150% HP (MP1)  = factor 22,93

You need to do ~23 times more damage to get that extra item.

The best Range to farm Legendarys is MP1-2 depending on your Gear and Killspeed.
I wouldn't recommend farming MP0, because the 1% (or 8% @ MP2) extra items does add up.

Edited by Xenocow, 15 December 2012 - 11:23 AM.

[KilltroX]

All depends on your char's gear/build/MF (MF if you are really just talking about loot and not XP as well). You can't say that a level 60 that just finished Hell with 10-20k dps, should go and start farming for better loot on MP4/5. This is obvious. Also if you have the 300% gear MF cap at level 60 even MP0/1 wouldn't be the most efficient. Go play pub games with high MF and low dps chars for the best efficiency; most of the other chars in the game will most likely be better than you and you just have to stay with the group and pick up the loot

Also if you your char IS strong enough to survive and actually kill on MP5<, you'll have to test your MP sweetspot yourself:
- Do MP 0-5 on a specific route.
- Time each MP.
- Count the # of quality vs quantity loot (rares/legendaries [can be seperate]).
- Find a balance for time vs loot.
- Play that MP.

If you're more concerned about XP do MP0/1; and if you're more concerned about getting good loot, you can choose a higher MP, but just not so high you take 5min to kill an elite.

What I do is:
- Play pub games for XP.
- Play MP for loot and/or key farming.

I'll switch between these ever so often, to get the best experience!

[ailoze]

There's one thing you're wrong at. Run length DOES NOT directly scale with monster health. For two reasons: overkill damage(relevant for trash, not elites); and time you spend moving around, which is static for you throughout all mp levels.

[Cryomatic]

Huminator, on 15 December 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

Only an idiot would try to convince people mp5 is efficient. You can't argue with an idiot. So ill stop here. We have had similar discussion in the WD forum, and even after 15 pages the "mp5 sayers" still did not get it.

what if you are an idiot?

Edited by Cryomatic, 15 December 2012 - 01:13 PM.