59 replies to this topic

[Shinjed]

Just make it like Shielding, only active about 2-3 seconds at a time. HERP DERP!

Edited by Shinjed, 11 December 2012 - 07:46 AM.

[Huminator]

Nothing is wrong with Reflect damage. Your not ment to be a glass cannon.

[Shinjed]

I never said I had an issue with it but it seems other people do, atleast according to the recent blue thread about it. I believe that this fix is the most appropriate to said issue. Tbh I do agree with them though that there is currently no really effective way to mitigate the reflected damage for a class like demon hunter. You should not HAVE to pick Gloom or Smoke Screen just to survive hitting a monster, even when you have 500+ resistances, ~4k armor and 40k+ HP.

This fix would atleast make it so that players actually deserve to die if they're stupid enough to burst while Reflect Damage is active on the monster. As it is now, you could shoot a few balls of lightning or w/e you got, they could come in from the end of the screen and you just die, even though you didn't want to actually use that attack on RD mobs. Unless you got one of those, for now, mandatory skills and the discipline ready to use it.

[DivineZero]

I dont know if it is a bugg, but the white mobs in champion packs seem to reflect alot more damage than everything else. I can Smash the shit out of all other reflect damage in the game.

But for some reason just 1 smash on a white RD mob brings me down to half HP. If I manage to hit 2 mobs with my smash I die instantly.

Ofc its not something serious, but it is annoying to kill them 1 at a time instead of just cleaving them down like everything else. Especially since everything else is so easy.

[Bagstone]

http://www.diablofan...eflects-damage/

[Huminator]

More armor, more physical resist and less damage all fixes it. As i said, your not ment to be a glass cannon and 99.9% of players focus only on their offensive stats such as main stat, crit, crit damage and attack speed. Defensive stats are equaly important. If your struggling with reflect damage mobs, your defence is not on par with your offence, thats a problem you created, which means its a problem you solve. Not Blizzard.

[baron01]

Now that I fully switched to MP1 farming runs there are only 2 reasons I will die: (1) I'm too impatient to wait for molten bomb going off and get too close trying to loot that shiny thing on the floor or (2) I miss damage reflect affix on the mob -- this happens when the affix is not first on the list or the elite pack is accompanied by a large mob of white monsters.

Reflect Damage affix is annoying and it has forced me to change my skills once 1.0.5 hit live. I can deal with it without problems now but it requires certain skill and a rune to be manageable for DH. I wonder how other ranged classes deal with it since they have nothing similar--a skill that grants you 15% life steal and 35% damage reduction for its duration--at their disposal.

If RD is made avoidable, or a bit more toned down, it would allow players to be more flexible with their builds, which is always good thing.

[DivineZero]

Ahh, now look at that. I hope they fix the minion RD in the patch today then

Then its only Succubus disengage that buggs me xD Atleast the times that they disengage attacks that SHOULD hit them

But that should probably not be fixed

[Huminator]

baron01, on 11 December 2012 - 08:38 AM, said:

If RD is made avoidable, or a bit more toned down, it would allow players to be more flexible with their builds, which is always good thing.

You mean, If RD is made avoidable, or a bit more toned down, it would allow players to totaly ignore the affix. As i said earlier, if your struggling with reflect damage mobs, your defence is not on par with your offence, thats a problem you created, which means its a problem you solve. Not Blizzard. Your not suppose to be a glass cannon.

[Punkskelm]

Or just be Det0x and be a godly barb.  Problem solved.

[Kyoob]

Does anyone know the actual % of damage reflected back to you? Is it affected by monster level? Do Illusions from Illusionist affix reflect as well?

I've searched the web, but found somewhat unreliable tests only. It mostly varies from 5% of your DPS to 20% of your DPS, however I haven't found any reliable source.

Now lets assume the actual % is 15% of your DPS. We know for sure reflected damage is mitigated by your armor and resistances. When your DPS is very high (lets say 200k and more), life per second is almost useless. Life on hit is actually diminished as you increase your DPS, because it does not scale with your gear (only attack speed), it is still somewhat usefull, especially when dealing the damage in small chunks but rapidly with a high coefficient skill. But the most useful stat by far, at high DPS levels, is life steal, as it actually scales with your gear.

Now, for the sake of simplicity, I will exclude LoH and LpS from my calculations. Lets say we are playing Wizard and we have 3% life steal on weapon, we dont use the 1.5% skill as we don't like it (and it used to be buggy on archon's beam, is it fixed yet?). 3% LS in inferno is 0.6% effective LS (80% nerf in inferno). So in order to negate reflect damage, we need to mitigate 15% reflect damage down to 0.6% gained back by LS. The formula is then 0.15 * (1 - x) = 0.006, where x is the total mitigation required.

X is then equal to -(0.006 / 0.15 - 1) which is 96% mitigation from armor and resists. And that is ridiculous. If you keep armor -> resists ratio balanced, it is equal to having 12.600 armor and 1.260 physical resist.

This is not including any Life on Hit, life per second, %reduced damage from melee/ranged/elite and not any native mitigation (barb/monk 30%). It is obviously easy to overcome by adding more Life Steal, decreasing your DPS while increasing LoH and LpS and so on. But as in my wizard example, getting more then 3% LF forces you to use 2H weapon (at really high DPS levels). So my conclusion is, make LS more available to other classes and not force us to use particular builds (cmww anyone?).

PLEASE NOTE: My calculations are based on assumptions, low base LS% and might even include errors, don't take the really high armor/resists values too seriously, as it is a bit artificial. Sorry for the wall of text.

Edited by Kyoob, 11 December 2012 - 10:37 AM.

[axeman87]

I have a character for each class and play each one when I'm in the mood for different types of gameplay. My Monk for example is (mostly) completely unaffected by RD and he's great for getting into the thick of it. My Barbarian is the same.

My Wizard and DH however, are the polar opposite of this. I can dish out huge DPS, but the trade of is I have to be much more careful.

Making my ranged, DPS dealers (that are supposed to be fragile) more durable and akin to my melee fighters is counter intuitive and goes against the point of having different styles of classes.

It also hurts multi player, when you intentionally have a team of tank class getting into it, keeping the enemies busy while the damage dealer goes to work.

RD is one of the dumbest ideas in D3 IMHO.

Edited by axeman87, 11 December 2012 - 11:08 AM.

[xaimx]

Kyoob, on 11 December 2012 - 10:30 AM, said:

Does anyone know the actual % of damage reflected back to you? Is it affected by monster level? Do Illusions from Illusionist affix reflect as well?

Illusions do not get any of the affixes associated with an elite, including RD.

10% of damage is reflected, and it is reduced by physical resist, armor, and any other passive or skill that reduces damage taken.

I don't remember the figures exactly, but there was a thread about a week ago on this and as a WD, the conclusion was you would need about 3% ls weapon, 1k physical resist and 4k armor to not take damage from reflect, not counting any passives.

Edited by xaimx, 11 December 2012 - 11:13 AM.

[SeravokX]

While you do have a point Huminator, there is some validity to one of the problems brought up in this thread and others before. An enemy with the "Reflects Damage" affix is difficult to identify quickly.

Any decent player knows that you adapt your gameplay to the situation when needed, that could be to use Gloom or Spirit Walk and then attack, or maneuver to where you only hit one of the Reflect mobs at a time, etc. You don't have to have the static mitigation stats on your gear to deal with the returned damage- there are many tools and tactics at a player's disposal to increase survivability.

Reflect Damage is the only affix in the game that has no visible effect to notify the player of the potential of incoming damage. This is tough on a player who wants to use a tactic or skill designed to increase survivability to combat such a scenario. If a mob with the Reflect affix simply had a visible aura I'd bet many players would have a lot less trouble with the mobs.

I agree with your argument that any reduction in the damage reflected (whether a direct % reduction or even a timed on-off sequence like shielding) would only trivialize the affix. Each affix should add its own level of threat to the player, and for sure Reflect Damage is one of the more universally potent affixes (after all, the only way to "beat" a Reflect mob is to deal damage to it) but it needs to be conveyed to the player in a more visible way than trying to read through a list of affixes on a big blue Phase Beast when it suddenly blinks next to you.

[Bagstone]

SeravokX, on 11 December 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

Reflect Damage is the only affix in the game that has no visible effect to notify the player of the potential of incoming damage. This is tough on a player who wants to use a tactic or skill designed to increase survivability to combat such a scenario. If a mob with the Reflect affix simply had a visible aura I'd bet many players would have a lot less trouble with the mobs.

And this is what is going to happen "soon". See the bluepost I linked.

Most of what has been said in this thread will be obsolete as soon as the RD changed go live - and it won't take too long, otherwise they wouldn't have mentioned it in the bluepost.

Edited by Bagstone, 11 December 2012 - 11:35 AM.

[Kyoob]

xaimx, on 11 December 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

Kyoob, on 11 December 2012 - 10:30 AM, said:

Does anyone know the actual % of damage reflected back to you? Is it affected by monster level? Do Illusions from Illusionist affix reflect as well?

Illusions do not get any of the affixes associated with an elite, including RD.

10% of damage is reflected, and it is reduced by physical resist, armor, and any other passive or skill that reduces damage taken.

I don't remember the figures exactly, but there was a thread about a week ago on this and as a WD, the conclusion was you would need about 3% ls weapon, 1k physical resist and 4k armor to not take damage from reflect, not counting any passives.

1k phys. resist is about 76.05% reduction, 4k armor is about 55.94%. That reduces 10% reflected damage to aproximately 1.055%, with 80% inferno nerf that requires 5.275 LS %.

So 1 LS weapon is still not enough. I think my conclusion still stands, life steal should be more available for caster classes.

Thanks for the information though, helps a lot!

[Kanio]

People still have problem with this? Jesus...

[Astion]

Shinjed, on 11 December 2012 - 07:46 AM, said:

Just make it like Shielding, only active about 2-3 seconds at a time. HERP DERP!

I actually like this idea a lot. Its more in line with the rest of the skills. The HERP DERP flat damage return is just a silly mechanic, no matter the skill you have it will get to you. Where most other abilities are partially avoidable or neglectable with skill.

- Nice animation
- Limited duration
- More damage returned

[Kyoob]

Kanio, on 11 December 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

People still have problem with this? Jesus...

Well it's easy to say for a DH, isn't it But seriously, it is still a problem for medium geared players, which i guess is still the majority. Especially considering that the difficulty gap between DR affix any basically any other affix is really noticabe.

[Emberos]

I have to find posts but I believe amount reflected also appears to be modified/increased on reflecting mobs health pool.  I can tell you even within the same MP, a reflect pack will feel different if it is low health or high health creature so I give some credence to this.  It would also explain why RD begins to hurt so much at high MP -- you have three things working against you -- more creature/effect damage from higher MP, higher health creatures (exponentially so), and very likely you have also upped your outgoing damage so you can actually kill said high health creature in less than 30 minutes ( ).  

So, yeah RD is a joke at low MP if you gear even with a modicum of LoH, Resist or LS.  Move up higher MPs and even large amounts of resist, armor, life steal don't cover it.  If you are a class like a DH that has a spammable damage mitigation, problem still solved.  If you are say a WD with a non-spammable damage mitigation on a cooldown, problem can still be kind of solved -- you will just be doing a lot of standing around and slow killing.  It could use some reworking imho.

If RD being modified / increased by health pool of reflecting creature can be more widely confirmed, a good possible fix would be to remove that modifier so this doesn't ramp up as much at higher MPs -- you doing more damage and increased MP damage should be enough without higher health also multiplying it in two more ways: the modifier (if confirmed) and the longer duration of kill time.  I'll keep looking for more detail on the link to creature health but again my own experience tends to mesh with what I've read before on that.

EDIT: seems like Blue has indicated/confirmed Rare minions are doing more Reflects than intended -- that may be the variation I see in pack reflect damage within the same MP rather than health but still poking around a bit more.  There is definitely no question it varies from pack to pack for some reason that is not yet fully established.  Even without uncofirmed enemy health modifying the damage, even the double whammy of increased MP damage plus the required increased outgoing damage to kill higher health creatures efficiently causes it's own substantial issues at higher MPs.

Edited by Emberos, 11 December 2012 - 04:17 PM.