75 replies to this topic

[Bagstone]

Kieble, on 11 December 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

On the D3 Forums we did a BIS with perfect rolls and calculated the highest DPS achieved with that gear.  With buffs we got up to 1.3million.  If you want to check it out it's here:

http://us.battle.net...99402895?page=1

That is including buffs and paragon. Sounds strange that it's more than doubled just because of that. I just briefly skimmed the tread,  did you actually put this in d3up.com or any other damage calculator/sheet as well and could share this? Not to say that anything you mentioned in that thread is wrong, just curious to figure out why the difference is so huge.

[Kieble]

Bagstone, on 11 December 2012 - 02:56 PM, said:

Kieble, on 11 December 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

On the D3 Forums we did a BIS with perfect rolls and calculated the highest DPS achieved with that gear.  With buffs we got up to 1.3million.  If you want to check it out it's here:

http://us.battle.net...99402895?page=1

That is including buffs and paragon. Sounds strange that it's more than doubled just because of that. I just briefly skimmed the tread,  did you actually put this in d3up.com or any other damage calculator/sheet as well and could share this? Not to say that anything you mentioned in that thread is wrong, just curious to figure out why the difference is so huge.

Yes we put each individual item that we deemed as BIS into my damage calculator here:
http://www.unyieldin...D3/calcTool.php

It's a more specialized towards wizard one that most people on the D3 forums use.

If you want to go ahead and put them in you can recreate the same gear.  I'm thinking the difference is you're using BIS of gear that exists on Diablo progress, where we are using the actual BIS gear (max rolls for every item prop).

[DisposableHeero]

Not to dispute any of the above builds, but it depends on what you are aiming for.  Argument can be made for a 300 int, 100 vit, 12% life, 80 all resist, 6% crit, socket helm in place of that mempo, less DPS, way more EHP.  Going the other way Int + int/vit + crit chance + crit damage + Attack speed + average damage can probably best that Tal's amulet for DPS.

300 Int
100 Vit
10% crit
100% crit damage
9% AS
(not sure what the average damage cap for a single affix is)

[thepowerofdonuts]

I think a Chantodo wand with perfect stats will be better than that BIS Wand, at least for the Chantodo OH build.

Edit: Nevermind. I thought you could have a socket and + % crit damage.

Edited by thepowerofdonuts, 11 December 2012 - 07:12 PM.

[TheDemokin]

Kieble, on 11 December 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

Bagstone, on 11 December 2012 - 02:56 PM, said:

Kieble, on 11 December 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

On the D3 Forums we did a BIS with perfect rolls and calculated the highest DPS achieved with that gear.  With buffs we got up to 1.3million.  If you want to check it out it's here:

http://us.battle.net...99402895?page=1

That is including buffs and paragon. Sounds strange that it's more than doubled just because of that. I just briefly skimmed the tread,  did you actually put this in d3up.com or any other damage calculator/sheet as well and could share this? Not to say that anything you mentioned in that thread is wrong, just curious to figure out why the difference is so huge.

Yes we put each individual item that we deemed as BIS into my damage calculator here:
http://www.unyieldin...D3/calcTool.php

It's a more specialized towards wizard one that most people on the D3 forums use.

If you want to go ahead and put them in you can recreate the same gear.  I'm thinking the difference is you're using BIS of gear that exists on Diablo progress, where we are using the actual BIS gear (max rolls for every item prop).

I've checked all the items and they look fine, the DPS difference is contributed to 2 factors:
1) you are using the very BIS weapon, i am using the highest ranked weapon on diabloprogress (imo makes it slightly more realistic)
2) you are using 'glass cannon, pinpoint barrier, force weapon, sparkflint, scoundrel, 100 paragon' i am providing a table of UNBUFFED DPS at a 100 paragon.

These 2 combined provide the difference. One thing to note about amulet in your setup though: the damage range is not maximum - you are using only 33-66, which is ilvl 62 not the current ilvl 63.

Overall, no offense to all the other guys that put the effort into making various calculators but there really is no reason to use any calculator other than http://d3up.com they are 100% accurate to the decimal in the calculations of DPS / EHP, etc. It scans your profile and loads all the items in a second instead of you having to type each item one by one, it also offers a small client tool which scans the tooltip of items ingame (yes it is safe, been using it for months along with many others) and it does 2 things - loads the item into your profile + gives you the accurate changes to the stats if you equip that item, the data, once again is accurate to the decimal. On top of it all - you can have multiple builds which are all stored online not only for you to see but others as well. Quite frankly, personally, i do not trust any other calculator simply because i KNOW for sure that this one is updated for any changes within a few hours.

Basically, unless i'm mistaken with some rolls on items, still (please do let me know if you see something), this should give a very clear picture of best possible gearing setups (in terms of maximizing DPS)

[Loroese]

It just occurred to me, why are you using a Wand instead of a dagger for MH? Wouldn't a dagger lead to more dps because of the faster attack speed?

EDIT: Even a 1275 dps dagger will raise dps by over 3k.

Edited by Loroese, 12 December 2012 - 03:50 AM.

[TheDemokin]

Loroese, on 12 December 2012 - 03:47 AM, said:

It just occurred to me, why are you using a Wand instead of a dagger for MH? Wouldn't a dagger lead to more dps because of the faster attack speed?

EDIT: Even a 1275 dps dagger will raise dps by over 3k.

Good point, let me try it out

[TheDemokin]

Just swapped from wand to dagger for MH retaining the exact same DPS and other stats on the weapon - approximately 14k DPS increase, good point Loroese

[Loroese]

Have you looked at trifecta amulets with average damage and max Int to see if they give more dps than Tals?

I might play around with the list in my spreadsheet tomorrow if I have time. It should be as accurate as the site except I know how to use it better.

[TheDemokin]

Loroese, on 12 December 2012 - 05:14 AM, said:

Have you looked at trifecta amulets with average damage and max Int to see if they give more dps than Tals?

I might play around with the list in my spreadsheet tomorrow if I have time. It should be as accurate as the site except I know how to use it better.

Perfect rare trifecta amulet over Tal's trifecta amulet =
MH/trium +37k DPS
MH/trium/zuni +40k DPS
Skorn/zuni +17k DPS
Skorn +12k DPS

Really didn't expect this!

[Loroese]

TheDemokin, on 12 December 2012 - 05:25 AM, said:

Loroese, on 12 December 2012 - 05:14 AM, said:

Have you looked at trifecta amulets with average damage and max Int to see if they give more dps than Tals?

I might play around with the list in my spreadsheet tomorrow if I have time. It should be as accurate as the site except I know how to use it better.

Perfect rare trifecta amulet over Tal's trifecta amulet =
MH/trium +37k DPS
MH/trium/zuni +40k DPS
Skorn/zuni +17k DPS
Skorn +12k DPS

Really didn't expect this!

I did:

Loroese, on 11 December 2012 - 06:06 AM, said:

I wonder how trifecta with max crit damage and high average damage with Int would compare to the trifecta zuni and tal. Just plugging some numbers into my spreadsheet that tals would be about the same for me as a max CC, CD, IAS amulet with 200 int. So that's not counting bonus damage.

It also might be worth trying trifecta ring with average damage over zuni ring.

[TheDemokin]

Loroese, on 12 December 2012 - 07:17 AM, said:

It also might be worth trying trifecta ring with average damage over zuni ring.

Already using trifecta rings with high average dmg in profiles, only profiles with zunix2 are using zuni ring, unless you are talking about using purely only zuni boots against ice climbers. That i didn't do but if we go by item vs item comparison then the amount of variations becomes quite large. I was looking on basically comparing usage of zuni x 2 vs not using it at all and vs 2 handers

[Kieble]

TheDemokin, on 12 December 2012 - 03:39 AM, said:

I've checked all the items and they look fine, the DPS difference is contributed to 2 factors:
1) you are using the very BIS weapon, i am using the highest ranked weapon on diabloprogress (imo makes it slightly more realistic)
2) you are using 'glass cannon, pinpoint barrier, force weapon, sparkflint, scoundrel, 100 paragon' i am providing a table of UNBUFFED DPS at a 100 paragon.

These 2 combined provide the difference. One thing to note about amulet in your setup though: the damage range is not maximum - you are using only 33-66, which is ilvl 62 not the current ilvl 63.

Overall, no offense to all the other guys that put the effort into making various calculators but there really is no reason to use any calculator other than http://d3up.com they are 100% accurate to the decimal in the calculations of DPS / EHP, etc. It scans your profile and loads all the items in a second instead of you having to type each item one by one, it also offers a small client tool which scans the tooltip of items ingame (yes it is safe, been using it for months along with many others) and it does 2 things - loads the item into your profile + gives you the accurate changes to the stats if you equip that item, the data, once again is accurate to the decimal. On top of it all - you can have multiple builds which are all stored online not only for you to see but others as well. Quite frankly, personally, i do not trust any other calculator simply because i KNOW for sure that this one is updated for any changes within a few hours.

Basically, unless i'm mistaken with some rolls on items, still (please do let me know if you see something), this should give a very clear picture of best possible gearing setups (in terms of maximizing DPS)

The weapon is a huge difference.  A 1h Sword with IAS will always be the top DPS dealer.  Sword > Dagger > Wand for ultimate dps. So using a Wand in your diagram is a huge loss of possible DPS.

Without the buffs there is still a big difference.  The difference comes in things like boots not being max dps provided. And other small things where the most dps isn't pulled out of all slots. Ours however isn't taking in as much of an effort for EHP, we just picked max stats after all dps stats were rolled.  The EHP is still huge, but after 500k isn't a major gain where more DPS after 500k is, so that's why we chose to maximize DPS stats.


As for D3UP, it is a great tool - no arguments there.  However, it is missing a lot of things, and some of the calculations are off by slight amounts.  It rounds in some places, and doesn't in others.  It also isn't very easy to do new gearing compared to other tools.  You may like D3Up, and that's fine.  However, the one we have is specifically tailored for wizards, tested by wizards, and allows for much more precise information for wizards.  Everything that the d3up does, the dpsCalc does plus much more for wizards.  however, it's a personal thing.  Some people like to use Excel, that's their choice, doesn't make it wrong however.

Edited by Kieble, 12 December 2012 - 06:22 PM.

[Rasva]

TheDemokin, on 12 December 2012 - 03:39 AM, said:

Basically, unless i'm mistaken with some rolls on items, still (please do let me know if you see something), this should give a very clear picture of best possible gearing setups (in terms of maximizing DPS)

The weapon is still only 98% increased critical hit damage. Why not make BiS rolls for weapon also?

Edited by Rasva, 12 December 2012 - 07:03 PM.

[theanomaly00]

Great thread!  One thing I find missing however is the lack of life on hit (for CM) or life leech (for archon) that nearly all wizards have on their gear.  Might consider a build that includes those stats as well to be a bit more realistic in playability.

[Jesta]

Kieble, on 12 December 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

As for D3UP, it is a great tool - no arguments there.  However, it is missing a lot of things, and some of the calculations are off by slight amounts.  It rounds in some places, and doesn't in others.  It also isn't very easy to do new gearing compared to other tools.  You may like D3Up, and that's fine.  However, the one we have is specifically tailored for wizards, tested by wizards, and allows for much more precise information for wizards.  Everything that the d3up does, the dpsCalc does plus much more for wizards.  however, it's a personal thing.  Some people like to use Excel, that's their choice, doesn't make it wrong however.

As the guy that does D3Up, I completely agree. The calc over on CMWW is great at what it does, and there's a bunch of other great tools out there as well. It's also a great experience making programs/spreadsheets like this, it really helps you understand your character and how everything relates to each other, so I invite everyone to make something and play with the numbers

However, I'd love it if someone would point out all the slight problems with the Wizard DPS calculations, rather than just saying they exist. I've been working closely with someone on Monk calculations and I've been doing the Barb calculations, but I really need a few more dedicated theorycrafters to help point out all the inconsistencies to improve the tool for everyone. I also don't want to hijack this thread, because I think it's awesome the way the OP used d3up to assemble and show different BiS gear combinations, I might try it for barbs. So email me or something if you have some feedback or want to help, it's easy enough to get ahold of me, my emails on the top of the page.

Anyways, back to awesome wizard builds!

Edited by Jesta, 13 December 2012 - 01:00 AM.

[TheDemokin]

Kieble, on 12 December 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

The weapon is a huge difference.  A 1h Sword with IAS will always be the top DPS dealer.  Sword > Dagger > Wand for ultimate dps. So using a Wand in your diagram is a huge loss of possible DPS.

Weapon base attack speed scales the final DPS via +average damage modifiers on rings / amulets, etc. There is no way a 1.4 sword is going to beat a 1.5 base dagger given the same weapon DPS. (Unless the swords can, for some reason, roll a higher DPS than a dagger, which i am not aware of. I could be wrong and swords could roll higher damage ranges - i am not able to find the exact +min/min damages for swords vs daggers. Which is somewhat supported by the data provided from the actual existing items on diabloprogress.com swords / maces / spears / axes seem to go up to 1.4k while daggers highest are 1.2k O.o)

In fact it doesn't matter what the item is called, it could be called a 'swift shovel', as long as it has 1.4 attack base attack speed and same DPS the resulting DPS of the character is going to be the same. Apologies, but your argument here is invalid.

Kieble, on 12 December 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

Without the buffs there is still a big difference.  The difference comes in things like boots not being max dps provided. And other small things where the most dps isn't pulled out of all slots. Ours however isn't taking in as much of an effort for EHP, we just picked max stats after all dps stats were rolled.  The EHP is still huge, but after 500k isn't a major gain where more DPS after 500k is, so that's why we chose to maximize DPS stats.

My numbers are skewed towards DPS with every item having maximum DPS rolls, resulting EHP is the result of the extra rolls on each item. Hence your argument here is completely invalid.

Kieble, on 12 December 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

As for D3UP, it is a great tool - no arguments there.  However, it is missing a lot of things, and some of the calculations are off by slight amounts.  It rounds in some places, and doesn't in others.  It also isn't very easy to do new gearing compared to other tools.  You may like D3Up, and that's fine.  However, the one we have is specifically tailored for wizards, tested by wizards, and allows for much more precise information for wizards.  Everything that the d3up does, the dpsCalc does plus much more for wizards.  however, it's a personal thing.  Some people like to use Excel, that's their choice, doesn't make it wrong however.

Lets begin by saying that so far i have used D3UP.com for 3 characters, the resulting numbers of DPS from d3up.com are exact to the decimal when compared to the ingame DPS shown in the character sheet. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about with "some of the calculations are off by slight amounts".
Secondly - you really cannot say that this tool is "specialized for wizards". This is absolutely obscene statement. Every class in the game scales the unbuffed DPS on the character sheet exactly the same, be it monk, WD, barb, wizard or DH. The benefits of CD, CC, primary stat, etc are exactly the same for every class. What makes the difference is the buffs that particular class has, for example a barb is always going to be the higher DPS after passives, simply because noone else has a total of 15% CC and 50% CD added from passives with CC scaling like mad on higher DPS levels.
In this thread we are not talking about the final character DPS with skills, we are not interested in that here, we are talking about pure raw DPS of gear setup from the character without using passives or any buffs. These are the reasons why the main source of comparison of difference characters today is the UNBUFFED DPS. That allows for a comparison between any class.
I'm sorry, but the entire paragraph makes absolutely no sense.

No personal feelings here, just facts. The amount of misinformation going around is really mind boggling.

[TheDemokin]

Jesta, on 13 December 2012 - 12:59 AM, said:

As the guy that does D3Up, I completely agree. The calc over on CMWW is great at what it does, and there's a bunch of other great tools out there as well. It's also a great experience making programs/spreadsheets like this, it really helps you understand your character and how everything relates to each other, so I invite everyone to make something and play with the numbers

However, I'd love it if someone would point out all the slight problems with the Wizard DPS calculations, rather than just saying they exist. I've been working closely with someone on Monk calculations and I've been doing the Barb calculations, but I really need a few more dedicated theorycrafters to help point out all the inconsistencies to improve the tool for everyone. I also don't want to hijack this thread, because I think it's awesome the way the OP used d3up to assemble and show different BiS gear combinations, I might try it for barbs. So email me or something if you have some feedback or want to help, it's easy enough to get ahold of me, my emails on the top of the page.

Anyways, back to awesome wizard builds!

Jesta, could you guys perhaps include Loroese's CMWW simulator into d3up.com eventually? That would make life pretty damn awesome. Also are there any news on the wizard tDPS as it has been implemented for barbs?

[itirnitii]

isn't the min/max damage two rolls and not one?

Even though it lists xx-xx, it's just simplified to one line I though, but is really a +min damage and +max damage roll.

Is this not true?

Edited by itirnitii, 13 December 2012 - 07:48 AM.

[BDF2000]

TheDemokin, on 13 December 2012 - 03:23 AM, said:

Unless the swords can, for some reason, roll a higher DPS than a dagger, which i am not aware of. I could be wrong and swords could roll higher damage ranges - i am not able to find the exact +min/min damages for swords vs daggers. Which is somewhat supported by the data provided from the actual existing items on diabloprogress.com swords / maces / spears / axes seem to go up to 1.4k while daggers highest are 1.2k O.o

What I have heard is that it is indeed true that daggers cannot roll as high of a +min/max damage roll as other weapons...I saw someone post some numbers around on the official wiz forums a while back...might have even been in BiS thread, but I can't seem to find it atm.