198 replies to this topic

[maliceubx]

Bagstone, on 12 December 2012 - 09:53 PM, said:

1. No one keeps you from playing self-found only, like some others do. And I'm doing with some of my chars as well. Try it, it's fun. Just ignore the AH. I completely ignore the RMAH, like I ignored trading in D2 at all for 12 years. For me there's no difference if someone has a big credit card or a few billion gold b/c he got lucky and found an OP EF. Some people invest (real) money, some people invest time, some people do neither of that.

2. This is a ridiculous statement, replayability is the one and only thing in D3 that is better than in D2. You get to see about 20-25% of the game on your most efficient route. In D2 the way to 99 meant that you'd have to ignore 95% of the game at all (if you went for the quickest way to 99). Also your statement is so ridiculous, you're complaining about "no variety" but at the same time you want unique boss fights? Sigh...

3. Agree.

4. Disagree, play Torchlight and you'll see how boring it is if every 3rd item is mind-blowing. It's nice for a few hours but soon you'll just lose interest because there's no shiny rare gem to hunt for.

5. The efficiency song again. Well, if you don't like the cookie cutter builds, you have to sacrifice something, and efficiency is one thing. I don't like boring low level MP games at the moment, so I go MP10. It's slow, it's not efficient, but it's fun. It's the kind of diversity Diablo 2 never had, btw.

1. A lot of video game players are competitive in one form or another. Whether its better gear, better skills or accomplished more we (for the most part) look to one-up. If that's not the case at the very least you wish to 'progress' your character at a rate similar to those around you. Suggesting that you handicap yourself is not a fix, it's conceding to the system which for the most part does not fix any sort of long term issues at all.

2. You seem to be lost on the intended meaning of the word 'replayability' if you think it involves experiencing the same area's over and over again. Your idea of re-playability in Diablo 3 is to go from paragon level 51 to level 52. To finding that new amulet that instead of having 150 STR, 150 VIT, 30 AD, 8 IAS, 94 CD, 9% Crit has 160 STR, 160 VIT, 40 AD, 9 IAS, 100 CD, and 10% Crit. My idea of finding a new weapon in Diablo 2 was going from IK's Mace to BOTD TM . I hope your noticing the difference here in the incentive for 're playability" - it isn't about WHAT you are doing, it is about what you are doing it FOR.. and I'm fairly certain people seeing my second example are going to be a lot more motivated and excited to work towards it compared to my first. It's literally a world of difference between Diablo 2's item re playability and itemization and Diablo 3's at the moment.

5. The problem is it doesn't matter what build you play, regardless of efficiency or not they all use the exact same stats. They all look for quadfecta/trifecta gear. There is very little variance. Sure you get to cast 1 thing instead of another but that doesn't change the fact that it is literally ALL you're changing. It makes more unmotivated gameplay. In Diablo 2 if I didn't want to go the efficiency route and make a hammerdin, I could make a smiter or zealer instead and the parallels between the two builds would be akin to 1 item, the rest would be completely unique to the build. So frankly I have no idea where you're getting this idea that D2 never had that diversity. It has the diversity Diablo 3 has and more, not to mention almost every single build had different items it looked for.

Honestly man, not trying to be a dick but it sounds like you barely played Diablo 2 in the first place, or at the very most played it to beat Hell difficulty and then quit. If Diablo 2 was so lacking in diversity and so unreplayable compared to Diablo 3 then why did it have over 5+ viable builds for every single class. Why did it have over 80,000 concurrent players 10 years after it's release.

[Bagstone]

@maliceubx: 1. You're quoting me, not Litheum - would be nice if you could change this, don't want that other people get offended by my arguments ;-) 2. Well, we just have different views on many points. I accept that. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, I guess. 3. Regarding point 5, maka already pointed the same thing out that you're saying, and I'll answer the same: I was not talking about diversity in items or builds - no question this was better in D2. I was more referring to the MP levels.

Anyways - many different opinions here, different ways this game can go in the future. But taking this back to the thread's title, I still don't think D3 is dying, despite all its serious issues.

Edited by Bagstone, 13 December 2012 - 04:43 PM.

[maka]

Bagstone, on 12 December 2012 - 10:29 PM, said:

maka, on 12 December 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

Bagstone, on 12 December 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

It's the kind of diversity Diablo 2 never had, btw.

Now you're just embarrassing yourself. One of these days I have to find my backup external HD, see if I can recover my D2 savegames. Then you tell me if you've played as many builds in D3 as the characters I had in that. Hell, hardly anyone has more than one character of each class, and most don't even have one of each! Shows you how 'varied' this game is when it comes to builds.

Hm, this was more with regard to the content, not builds. And in particular I was thinking about the MP levels, which (at least for me) add some nice depth to the game. Diversity of builds is a different story, true. (And don't even start with diversity of items...)

This was your original quote, the one where I got that sentence from:

Bagstone, on 12 December 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

5. The efficiency song again. Well, if you don't like the cookie cutter builds, you have to sacrifice something, and efficiency is one thing. I don't like boring low level MP games at the moment, so I go MP10. It's slow, it's not efficient, but it's fun. It's the kind of diversity Diablo 2 never had, btw.

It seems you were talking about builds. If you were not, my apologies.
But no matter. Even if you're talking about MP levels, D2 had that - it was called /players X.

Edited by maka, 13 December 2012 - 07:22 PM.

[Oxidys]

lol at gear diversity in diablo 2 when everyone wears enigma. every game has the same problem once theory crafters / elitests hit it: "wear this or GTFO".  "Fixing" itemization in D3 would only fix it until the next BiS was found then this same argument will happen all over again.

edit: i doubt its going to change either, Blizzard has a hard-on for making this game accessable to more players by way of making stats and choices less confusing.   anyone keeping up with D3 prior to release should know this.   itemization will likely stay on the simple side.

Edited by Oxidys, 15 December 2012 - 07:28 PM.

[overneathe]

Oxidys, on 15 December 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

edit: i doubt its going to change either, Blizzard has a hard-on for making this game accessable to more players by way of making stats and choices less confusing.   anyone keeping up with D3 prior to release should know this.   itemization will likely stay on the simple side.

Even if it does, how would you suggest it expands? I'm not arguing but am curious what people might suggest for interesting stats to add.

[DFacTor82]

First off I played d2 for 8 years off and on.. had about every legendary their was. Just an idea of mine to expand the current system in place would be to offer different charms or stones or jewls that would add different effects such as cold skills, fire skills etc.. you could also add this affix to more equip. Not a huge change but maybe a nice addition to the current system.

But I do agree... d2 did seem to have more options as far as builds... yes everybody wore the same gear for that build but still were different styles of play

[overneathe]

DFacTor82, on 15 December 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

First off I played d2 for 8 years off and on.. had about every legendary their was. Just an idea of mine to expand the current system in place would be to offer different charms or stones or jewls that would add different effects such as cold skills, fire skills etc.. you could also add this affix to more equip. Not a huge change but maybe a nice addition to the current system.

But I do agree... d2 did seem to have more options as far as builds... yes everybody wore the same gear for that build but still were different styles of play

Alright, jewels would be a fine addition, although people would only buy ones with CH, CC, IAS, AR and such... Charms would take up inventory space, which I've always seen as bad design, unless the Talisman makes it back. But even then people would just get charms that give CH, CC, IAS, AR...

It's obvious where this is going. That's why I asked what _stats_ would people like to see more?

Also there are already a few items that gives +elemental damage, not a lot, but there are some and most of them are not class specific iirc.

[Oxidys]

honestly i would like to see more roll exclusive stats.  an example would be something like, attack speed vs crit/crit damage.   does your build need to hit faster? or hit harder?  cant pick both on the same gear so build around your preference.

now, i understand that, that example is not really possible due to those stats already existing and people's investment in current gear.  but it would make people have to make a decision.

i would also like a stat that favors slow 2hand weapon play.  the same as attack speed is the primary goal of duel wield.  2handers use far less resource per damage done simply due to the nature of slow hard hitting weapons.  something like, i dunno, call it "overkill" stat.  it raises the resource cost of your damage skills while further buffing their total damage.  make it function like the opposite of attack speed, and exclusive as well.

another idea is to have more stats like crit damage, something that absolutely requires investment in another stat to even function.  you cannot stack crit damage if your crit sucks.  you'd waste your money.  something similar could be done for attack speed.  a stat that simple does not scale well unless your attack speed is high enough.  but then you would have to create similar oppertunities for people who like slow 2handed weapons.  maybe add a crushing blow stat that some how only scales with overkill stat (just making shit up for the sake of examples).

the real problem is, if you simply add more stats to choose from, you dont actually get to choose from them.  you just have to find gear that happened to roll everything.  need more exclusive roll stats or stats that simply do not scale with some stats at all.

an example of that would be, lets say a bleed that scales with attack speed, but cannot crit.  you now can CHOSE to build bleeds DPS or for crit burst. or a stat that scales based on how fast you burn your resource per 5 seconds, this would scale with attack speed and overkill but not crit.

anywho, im rambling, and alot of these ideas would likely not translate well at all, but are mearly examples of directions that in my opinion would prove positive in the end.

Edited by Oxidys, 16 December 2012 - 12:50 AM.

[Indimix]

There is only one truth about this game, which is, for some reason, is boring as hell.

You can blame the itemization, the AH, the almost non-randomness, the poor designed paragon level system, etc.

But I think, and IMO a lot of other players think too, that this game became boring.

Sure, you can always make the beautiful argument by dismissal fallacy (if you don't like it, move to Russia), but it's not very effective anymore.

[Oxidys]

Indimix, on 16 December 2012 - 12:46 AM, said:

There is only one truth about this game, which is, for some reason, is boring as hell.

You can blame the itemization, the AH, the almost non-randomness, the poor designed paragon level system, etc.

But I think, and IMO a lot of other players think too, that this game became boring.

Sure, you can always make the beautiful argument by dismissal fallacy (if you don't like it, move to Russia), but it's not very effective anymore.

i think a large part of this is simply a sign of the times.

when i played D2, i didnt know about forums and youtube didnt exist.  if i wanted to try something, i had to try it.  think about it on my own.  try out the gear on my own or maybe with some help from a friend of a friend if i was lucky.

fast forward to D3, i wanna know how such and such build will work.  i already have indepth guides and youtube can just straight show me exactly how its going to end up anyway.   "oh so thats how it would look...meh"  in the end, i didnt actually have to even roll that build.  its like how MMOchampion is likely the reason i dont give a crap about mists of pandaria, i already know everything there is to know without even playing the game yet, hell, before it even came out...

[overneathe]

Oxidys, on 16 December 2012 - 01:08 AM, said:

i think a large part of this is simply a sign of the times.

when i played D2, i didnt know about forums and youtube didnt exist.  if i wanted to try something, i had to try it.  think about it on my own.  try out the gear on my own or maybe with some help from a friend of a friend if i was lucky.

fast forward to D3, i wanna know how such and such build will work.  i already have indepth guides and youtube can just straight show me exactly how its going to end up anyway.   "oh so thats how it would look...meh"  in the end, i didnt actually have to even roll that build.  its like how MMOchampion is likely the reason i dont give a crap about mists of pandaria, i already know everything there is to know without even playing the game yet, hell, before it even came out...

That is the plague of Blizzard games 2005+. They still attain that recipe of "easy to learn, hard to master", but in this day and age it's super hard to stay away from all the useful info out there that makes you super pro in a few easy steps.

I honestly don't know what any game company can do about that. Well, less popular studios don't have such fan bases that turn the game upside down in a matter of days, but yeah, larger companies have this issue.

[maka]

^^We could keep the information we find to ourselves

[proletaria]

overneathe, on 16 December 2012 - 01:50 AM, said:

That is the plague of Blizzard games 2005+. They still attain that recipe of "easy to learn, hard to master", but in this day and age it's super hard to stay away from all the useful info out there that makes you super pro in a few easy steps.

I honestly don't know what any game company can do about that. Well, less popular studios don't have such fan bases that turn the game upside down in a matter of days, but yeah, larger companies have this issue.

I would be hesitant to say that this is necessarily a bad thing. Far be it from me to suggest that anyone feel compelled to go out and generate a really innovative independent title out there, but I think this is the kind of atmosphere that breeds the next generation of games. Clearly, there is a demand out there. All that is required is for someone with compelling vision to sell it.

[Bodycount1]

Do people even buy anymore on the RMAH?  Does Blizzard make any money now that the economy is screwed to the point of no return?

People want best in slot.  That's it.  The problem is best in slot doesn't drop that often .. if ever.

[Indimix]

Oxidys, on 16 December 2012 - 01:08 AM, said:

Indimix, on 16 December 2012 - 12:46 AM, said:

There is only one truth about this game, which is, for some reason, is boring as hell.

You can blame the itemization, the AH, the almost non-randomness, the poor designed paragon level system, etc.

But I think, and IMO a lot of other players think too, that this game became boring.

Sure, you can always make the beautiful argument by dismissal fallacy (if you don't like it, move to Russia), but it's not very effective anymore.

i think a large part of this is simply a sign of the times.

when i played D2, i didnt know about forums and youtube didnt exist.  if i wanted to try something, i had to try it.  think about it on my own.  try out the gear on my own or maybe with some help from a friend of a friend if i was lucky.

fast forward to D3, i wanna know how such and such build will work.  i already have indepth guides and youtube can just straight show me exactly how its going to end up anyway.   "oh so thats how it would look...meh"  in the end, i didnt actually have to even roll that build.  its like how MMOchampion is likely the reason i dont give a crap about mists of pandaria, i already know everything there is to know without even playing the game yet, hell, before it even came out...

I disagree, even knowing what works and what doesn't, I can have fun playing games. An example that comes to my mind is FFXII, loved that game, even after reading a walk-through guide, I enjoyed every single fight, every single item and drop, it was amazing. That doesn't happen with D3, it just gets boring really soon, a few paragon levels into the game and boom, it's gone.

I'm just tired of idying useless and poor designed rares, legendaries are most of the time really bad, gems are not worth picking since I don't have the plan to combine them, the blacksmith is a joke.. and so on.

[proletaria]

Bodycount1, on 16 December 2012 - 05:20 AM, said:

Do people even buy anymore on the RMAH?

I would assume they do, given the fact that some other posters around here advertise making hundreds of euro a month on the RMAH.

Bodycount1, on 16 December 2012 - 05:20 AM, said:

Does Blizzard make any money now that the economy is screwed to the point of no return?

Frankly, I don't think the economy is any more "screwed," than it could have been given the many ways blizzard could have tinkered with difficulty, drop rates, arbitrary AH rules, fees, etc. They've more or less settled on a kind of free market solution and it has invariably brought out a bunch of suppliers (botters, AH flippers) to meet the demands of average players who don't want to take on that kind of risk or time input.

Bodycount1, on 16 December 2012 - 05:20 AM, said:

People want best in slot.  That's it.  The problem is best in slot doesn't drop that often .. if ever.

I think it's important to keep in mind that, absent some kind of pvp, best in slot is most of the goal in terms of repeating the content. If best in slot dropped arbitrarily say, once a week, then most everyone would have exhausted any and all compelling reasons to keep playing and the vast majority of items in the game (99.9999%) would amount to worthless vendor trash. That would more or less render the entire notion of a game "economy," superfluous since exchange would be entirely a waste of one's time.

[maliceubx]

Oxidys, on 16 December 2012 - 01:08 AM, said:

Indimix, on 16 December 2012 - 12:46 AM, said:

There is only one truth about this game, which is, for some reason, is boring as hell.

You can blame the itemization, the AH, the almost non-randomness, the poor designed paragon level system, etc.

But I think, and IMO a lot of other players think too, that this game became boring.

Sure, you can always make the beautiful argument by dismissal fallacy (if you don't like it, move to Russia), but it's not very effective anymore.

i think a large part of this is simply a sign of the times.

when i played D2, i didnt know about forums and youtube didnt exist.  if i wanted to try something, i had to try it.  think about it on my own.  try out the gear on my own or maybe with some help from a friend of a friend if i was lucky.

fast forward to D3, i wanna know how such and such build will work.  i already have indepth guides and youtube can just straight show me exactly how its going to end up anyway.   "oh so thats how it would look...meh"  in the end, i didnt actually have to even roll that build.  its like how MMOchampion is likely the reason i dont give a crap about mists of pandaria, i already know everything there is to know without even playing the game yet, hell, before it even came out...

I can understand the ease of information that is around today, and your argument is much of the same argument that Bashiok used to try and explain the lack of complexity but the truth is that ease of information only accounts for a small percentage of complexity. The real depth of the truth is that Blizzard is a company, and as a company they want to make money and sell games... so the easier and more simple to understand game mechanics they introduce, the wider their audience range (obviously). While back in Diablo 2 there wasn't a large amount of sites that hosted plethora of information regarding builds and what not, there still existed a few handfuls of sites that did give us info. From Arreats to the Battle.net forums and some fan sites, with ease you could find information about optimal Magic Find, drop rate tables for every boss and champion in the game, and more importantly build guides.

The truth is the information was out there back in the day, although not as plentiful as it is now... so while it pales in comparison to today, the majority of the reason why Diablo 3 is simple and boring is not the abundance of information, but because it is simple... and boring.

[Betrayed]

I played Diablo 2 an insane amount...and the thing that kept me playing is sadly missing from this game. There is such a shity lack of community. And im not talking about you guys on here, cause you're the reason I do play when I do. I need this site.

I'm talking about no clans, no clan channels  the channels they do have are so terribly done I swear they added it a week before the game. You cannot create your own game it has to be Looking for Dungeon style on a certain quest. When you do go to join a gain TOPS there is maybe 30 people on the most popular quest, you go inside that game ohhh looky what we have here two names in a different language, like symbols iv never seen before and an afker in the town.

For Diablo 3 to live.

Clans.
Better chat system.
PVP ( Duels / Arena / World PvP ) and you have had time to do it right, so it better not be garbage.
Custom create a game ( with a name you choose, character gear max and mins etc etc. )
Actual random maps.
Better itemization.
Doing full acts in one game.
More classes sooner then later cause 4 is fine for release but a year will be comming up soon,

[Parra]

For D3 to live?? It can't technically 'Die'... Might want to reword that, maybe to something like "Things that I'd like to see changed/added in D3"

There is a large list of things that could be fixed in-game, which seems to be what at least half of this thread is ranting about,

[maka]

"How do you kill that which has no life?"