19 replies to this topic

[Ashy_Larry]

As we all know, '3% damage dealt is converted to life' doesn't quite convert 3% of your damage into life... but a smaller amount. I'm sure this was posted elsewhere, or on some other forum. my question is, does anyone know just how much of a % life conversion one gets in inferno? Looking to get into the life conversion business so I can attempt higher MPs (7-10) but I'm trying to figure if I'll survive

[Bagstone]

Life steal is reduced by 80% in Inferno. So 3% LS on a weapon means 0.6% in Inferno.

[Ashy_Larry]

Ouch... certainly a blow... thanks a bunch!

[tommmmmm]

Also, even with 5.5%+ weapon and 600 LoH without proper armor/physical ress you ARE gonna kill yourself in 1-2sec against RD pack - and that - complicates things much more than mere 80% reduction.

Edited by tommmmmm, 06 December 2012 - 01:22 PM.

[Ashy_Larry]

So what do you feel would be a good base armor / phys res to stack before attempting higher than MP7 in regards to reflect damage?

[Bagstone]

There are absolutely no "set in stone" values that can ensure blowing every RD elite away. It just depends on too many factors:

-What class are you playing, what skills are you using?
-What's your DPS? 10% of damage is reflected, but it doesn't always feel the same, seems to depend on other factors, too.
-What's your overall EHP?
-How much LS do you have (depends on DPS), how much LoH do you have (depends on spells you're using, proc coefficients, ...)

For example, a CMWW wizard can survive MP10 against RD mobs with only 500-800 LoH and no LS if he stacks EHP and has high APS. At the same time, an Archon wizard will always instantly kill himself if he's trying to launch an Arcane Destruction (Archon 1600% damage rune) against RD mobs, even with relatively high EHP values on mid-range MP levels.

[Küken]

Since lifesteal returns a percentage of your damage and reflect damage returns a percentage as well, and the reflected damage is reduced by armor, physical resistance and the 30% damage resistance of barbs and monks, there is a sweet spot where your lifeleech cancels out the reflected damage completely.


The formula would look somewhat like this:

0.1 x (1-phys reduction) x (1-armor reduction) x (1-class reduction) = 0.2 x lifesteal

There was a thread, which calculated this for a witchdoctor, if I recall correctly it was something like 8k armor + 1k physical resist + 3% lifesteal to migitate all reflected damage, regardless of damage output.

For example, my monk geared for MP0 exp farming has about 400 physical resist and 3.5k armor, which translates to roughly 55% reduction for both of them (not exactly, just for the sake of simplicity). Since he is a monk, he has the 30% class reduction, so the calculation would be:

0.1 x .45 x .45 x .7 = 0.2 x ls

So, in theory, I would need about 7.1% life steal to counteract reflect damage completely.

Factoring in LoH is a different story, because of proc coefficients and a direct correlation to your damage (the more damage you do, the less effective LoH becomes obviously).

[tommmmmm]

Küken, on 06 December 2012 - 04:03 PM, said:

So, in theory, I would need about 7.1% life steal to counteract reflect damage completely.

And that's why BARBS are overpowered, because they can get up to 9% thx to the belt.
And FYI other classes specific gear doesn't have ANYTHING special. Like DH's cloaks can't roll attack speed (which they should), WD's weps can't roll extra DoT dps which they should, only BARBS benefit from extra possible rolls on their belts...

[Andead]

Is that formula per mob?
Mine comes out to 3.84% LL but my actual 8.6% is not even enough when I pull a pack and then run away with sprint so I'm only getting reflect damage from the sprint tornadoes.
Also if I hit an elite reflect pack with hammer of the ancients and I don't kill them, I get blown to pieces.

Edit: barbs can get 12% LL just fyi.

Edited by Andead, 06 December 2012 - 04:37 PM.

[Ashy_Larry]

Küken, on 06 December 2012 - 04:03 PM, said:

There was a thread, which calculated this for a witchdoctor, if I recall correctly it was something like 8k armor + 1k physical resist + 3% lifesteal to migitate all reflected damage, regardless of damage output.

^this is what i was lookin for... Thanks! I dont know how a WD can get 8k armor though ;/ i'm also hoping to acquire a near perfect LS skorn... So maybe i can get alittle less armor than though... Otherwise i'll have to put horrify back in my build which i dont wanna have to do...

[Küken]

Andead, on 06 December 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

Is that formula per mob?
Mine comes out to 3.84% LL but my actual 8.6% is not even enough when I pull a pack and then run away with sprint so I'm only getting reflect damage from the sprint tornadoes.
Also if I hit an elite reflect pack with hammer of the ancients and I don't kill them, I get blown to pieces.

The formula should work regardless of mob count, since it just compares the life stolen for every damage done to the damage reflected for every damage done. Are you sure, your calculations are correct? You would need 92.32% reduction, which would be about 7k armor and 600 resist. Otherwise I might be wrong in my assumptions, or there might be other factors (does the proc coefficient have any influence on life steal?)
Also, if you cause enough damage to oneshot yourself before lifesteal, you will still die. The lifesteal doesn't reduce the damage, it just heals a percentage of the caused damage, after you already took the full reflect damage.

Ashy_Larry, on 07 December 2012 - 01:52 AM, said:

^this is what i was lookin for... Thanks! I dont know how a WD can get 8k armor though ;/ i'm also hoping to acquire a near perfect LS skorn... So maybe i can get alittle less armor than though... Otherwise i'll have to put horrify back in my build which i dont wanna have to do...

Assuming a WD and 6% lifeleech, you would need a combined reduction from armor and phys. resistance of 88%. This could, for example, approximately be reached at 5k armor + 700 resist. You can get quite high armor values on a WD temporarily, if you count Horrify with the armor rune.

However, keep in mind, that Blizzard announced changes to the reflect damage affix already. It might take them a while to actually implement these changes, but you probably don't want to invest hundreds of millions now just to be able to handle reflect a little better. Also, these values only show, how much resistances and lifeleech you need to not take any damage from reflect, you won't actually restore any hitpoints in the fight.

[Richtko]

tommmmmm, on 06 December 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

Küken, on 06 December 2012 - 04:03 PM, said:

So, in theory, I would need about 7.1% life steal to counteract reflect damage completely.

And that's why BARBS are overpowered, because they can get up to 9% thx to the belt.
And FYI other classes specific gear doesn't have ANYTHING special. Like DH's cloaks can't roll attack speed (which they should), WD's weps can't roll extra DoT dps which they should, only BARBS benefit from extra possible rolls on their belts...

Maybe a topic for another thread but as a Barb I'm ready to support your LS plight under one condition, mighty belts can start rolling stats that class specific OH's can, I want an additional 250 avg dmg, 10 crit and 9 AS on my belt

Edited by Richtko, 07 December 2012 - 05:35 AM.

[Ashy_Larry]

Küken, on 07 December 2012 - 02:52 AM, said:

However, keep in mind, that Blizzard announced changes to the reflect damage affix already. It might take them a while to actually implement these changes, but you probably don't want to invest hundreds of millions now just to be able to handle reflect a little better. Also, these values only show, how much resistances and lifeleech you need to not take any damage from reflect, you won't actually restore any hitpoints in the fight.

what sort of changes? when was this announced?

[Bagstone]

Ashy_Larry, on 07 December 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

what sort of changes? when was this announced?

http://us.battle.net...93362?page=2#31

[Ashy_Larry]

hmm... this doesn't mean that anything will really happen to it... though the pets not dealing damage to me would be splendid... it would also allow for me to get people revived if they should die whilst fighting... so that'll be an improvement... but like i said, if they don't exactly have any plans to change it, i can't imagine it'll be any easier, however, since i can get crits around 800k-1mil... that more or less just drains my health...

[Küken]

They talked about possibly making it a timed affix, so there would probably be a time period, when damage is reflected and a time period, where you can deal damage safely. We cannot be sure, if it will turn out that way, but in my opinion, it would be a reasonable change, and it would allow us to deal with reflect packs without having to adjust a major part of our equipment for them. This exact change might not be implemented, but I expect at least some way to deal damage without being affected by reflect, constricted by either time, range, area or whatever.

[Ashy_Larry]

Aye... I suppose that could solve lots of problems... But at that rate where do you draw the line as to how long they stay reflecting and how long they don't? Too much of a window on both will be issues.... I think if the proc rate of reflected damage was reduced, much like the proc rate for run like the wind was nerfed a tad, that could also work.... Simply reduced the damage reflected slightly and / or reduce the amount of times the damage gets reflected

[Küken]

Andead, on 06 December 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

Is that formula per mob?
Mine comes out to 3.84% LL but my actual 8.6% is not even enough when I pull a pack and then run away with sprint so I'm only getting reflect damage from the sprint tornadoes.
Also if I hit an elite reflect pack with hammer of the ancients and I don't kill them, I get blown to pieces.

As a followup, Blizzard stated there is a bug with reflect damage on yellow packs currently, which results in more damage than intended being returned. This is probably whats screwing up the formula and causing your barbarian to still take damage.

[Bleu42]

tommmmmm, on 06 December 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

Küken, on 06 December 2012 - 04:03 PM, said:

So, in theory, I would need about 7.1% life steal to counteract reflect damage completely.

And that's why BARBS are overpowered, because they can get up to 9% thx to the belt.
And FYI other classes specific gear doesn't have ANYTHING special. Like DH's cloaks can't roll attack speed (which they should), WD's weps can't roll extra DoT dps which they should, only BARBS benefit from extra possible rolls on their belts...

Just to make you more mad @ barbs, we can get up to 12%, not 9%.

Also wtf are you talking about. Dh's get quivers, which have attack speed.

Edited by Bleu42, 12 December 2012 - 01:39 AM.

[orangedrop]

tommmmmm, on 06 December 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

Küken, on 06 December 2012 - 04:03 PM, said:

So, in theory, I would need about 7.1% life steal to counteract reflect damage completely.

And that's why BARBS are overpowered, because they can get up to 9% thx to the belt.
And FYI other classes specific gear doesn't have ANYTHING special. Like DH's cloaks can't roll attack speed (which they should), WD's weps can't roll extra DoT dps which they should, only BARBS benefit from extra possible rolls on their belts...

sure mate, 20% ias on quiver, 100-500 damage on mojo/source and you are saying class specific gear doesnt get anything special? nat legacy set, how powerful is that? QQ more, i hope you play monk then i can understand your complaint. If you play the other 3 as a main then I am not sure what you are smoking man