88 replies to this topic

[brx]

Ducha, on 06 December 2012 - 10:24 AM, said:

AudioCG, on 05 December 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:

If they want to be super awesome, they could add a "Endless dungeon" in Act 4, but that would require a lot of work.

Everyone wants an endless dungeon! I don't blame them! it's a great idea!! If blizzard didn't take a thing or two away from that Top 10 list a while back then I will be disappointed.

brx, on 05 December 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:

Don't you think things like the ambience of d2, be it the gore or the musics and sounds, are gone for ever? (like diablo's balls -I had to.)

Not at all! There is just as much if not more gore in Diablo 3! Just check out the zones in most of act 1, nearly all of act 2, and here and there in act 3!

WHAT? Go play d2 again and tell me how Andariel's room looks like. D3 never came close and is sterilized in comparison

[Ducha]

brx, on 06 December 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

Ducha, on 06 December 2012 - 10:24 AM, said:

AudioCG, on 05 December 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:

If they want to be super awesome, they could add a "Endless dungeon" in Act 4, but that would require a lot of work.

Everyone wants an endless dungeon! I don't blame them! it's a great idea!! If blizzard didn't take a thing or two away from that Top 10 list a while back then I will be disappointed.

brx, on 05 December 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:

Don't you think things like the ambience of d2, be it the gore or the musics and sounds, are gone for ever? (like diablo's balls -I had to.)

Not at all! There is just as much if not more gore in Diablo 3! Just check out the zones in most of act 1, nearly all of act 2, and here and there in act 3!

WHAT? Go play d2 again and tell me how Andariel's room looks like. D3 never came close and is sterilized in comparison

Oh alright then! Well Alcarnus in d3 is pretty darn close with Andariel's room let me tell you that!

[brx]

Ducha, on 06 December 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

brx, on 06 December 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

Ducha, on 06 December 2012 - 10:24 AM, said:

AudioCG, on 05 December 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:

If they want to be super awesome, they could add a "Endless dungeon" in Act 4, but that would require a lot of work.

Everyone wants an endless dungeon! I don't blame them! it's a great idea!! If blizzard didn't take a thing or two away from that Top 10 list a while back then I will be disappointed.

brx, on 05 December 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:

Don't you think things like the ambience of d2, be it the gore or the musics and sounds, are gone for ever? (like diablo's balls -I had to.)

Not at all! There is just as much if not more gore in Diablo 3! Just check out the zones in most of act 1, nearly all of act 2, and here and there in act 3!

WHAT? Go play d2 again and tell me how Andariel's room looks like. D3 never came close and is sterilized in comparison

Oh alright then! Well Alcarnus in d3 is pretty darn close with Andariel's room let me tell you that!

alright I can agree with that. But it is about the only place where I had this feeling and it still does not come close to d2 to me.

[eldimmy]

I think it's all about itemization, once "it's fixed" the game will become much better.
OP if you could make a video just discussing about it, You'll need follow some steps:
- Show D3 actual problem;
- Show why D2 itemization was so much sucessful compared to D3;
- Possible solution to make it as good as D2, but without having to revamp all game.

Here explains what's wrong with itemization in D3, and I hope you could make a video focused about it. http://imageshack.us...fographic.jpg#1

Some notes about itemization:
- if a WEAPON don't have primary stat, crit damage, socket, higher dps, LS and sometimes vit, %damage, it's nearly useless;
- If an AMULET lacks damage, crit damage, crit hit, primary stat and sometimes vit and loh it's nearly useless;
- If a HELM lacks socket, primary stats, all resist, and crit hit  and sometimes % life and vit it's nearly useless;
- If a RING lack crit hit, crit dmg, primary, and sometimes atak speed and vit it's nearly useless;
- and goes on...

There are so OVERPOWERED STATS that's ruin the rest of them. It's because weapon dps is so bad designed? crit damage scales too much? crit hit is no longer a chance but nearly 100% uptime? Resist all downrate armor+single resist? I don't know, seriously...

But look to this affixes:
life on kill : useless, we have health globes most of the time on runs, also really bad in coop.
thorns: Damage is so high and monster hp is so large that thorns should scale with some % of your damage or whatever
increase damage of a random class ability here: it's nice, but if a WD skill roll on a bow, it's just another afixx that makes 99% of my rares to the merchant
indestructable: for high end characters is just an affix to compete with a possible quinfecta.
chill on hit + slow on hit: why both?
Bleed chance: don't scale with your damage, why I want 11k damage over 5sec on a 1kk hp monster?
health and gold pick up: why not a 6yard baseline to fix some gold drops on bugged areas?
and so on...

any item you drop has a chance to drop 1 of this bad affixes, 1 of them could ruin everything. why don't eliminate this thrash already or revamp some obvious one? I don't want a rare to be thrash 99% of the time and i don't want a godly item to drop all the time either, but seriously itemization now is bad, and that's a fact.

PS: english is not my first language, so forgive my bad grammar.

Ty, nice video OP.

[brx]

eldimmy, on 06 December 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

I think it's all about itemization, once "it's fixed" the game will become much better.
OP if you could make a video just discussing about it, You'll need follow some steps:
- Show D3 actual problem;
- Show why D2 itemization was so much sucessful compared to D3;
- Possible solution to make it as good as D2, but without having to revamp all game.

Here explains what's wrong with itemization in D3, and I hope you could make a video focused about it. http://imageshack.us...fographic.jpg#1

That image is just too good. I don't know if it can ever be changed because of the rmah and all the whine there would be from people having bought -stupid- gear, but maybe it will at the expansion.

It at least deserves a long discussion about it.

[DerpySkulls]

eldimmy, on 06 December 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

Here explains what's wrong with itemization in D3, and I hope you could make a video focused about it. http://imageshack.us...fographic.jpg#1

Best image ever! But everyone is forgetting another reason why Diablo 3 sucks big flopy donkey dick and it is the quests. Right now we get gold, whoop de fucking do gold, what the fuck am i going to do with this 500 or 1000 shitty pieces of gold. Oh but hold on we can get nephlium valor stacks, again whoop de fucking do derp derp derp.

Let us take a look at Diablo 1. Our 1st quest was to kill the butcher (some times it was the poison water supply) after the butcher almost caught up to us and preceded to brutally rape you and to throw your corpse on a meat hook after (the rogue or sorcerer and some times warrior when hes trying to run away) we kill him. That was an epic encounter that gave you nightmares when you heard "Fresh meat" and after we got to use the butchers cleaver, which you guessed it lasted for various levels untill you replaced it.

How about that for a first quest? you get the butchers weapon!

Lets look at Diablo 2 quests the quests in this game that impacted your character the most was the: Skill point quests in every act. stat points, life potion, and all resist scroll. But the other quests. Charsi will imbue a white item to make it a rare, you get discounted prices in act 2 from Atma, you get to shatter a sould stone upon the hellforge in act4 and it rains gems/runes and in act 5 you get to socket an item.

Lets look at Diablo 3 quests, Shut up and take your minimum wage pay cheque and get out of my office before I fire you.

Now I don't know if any of you can connect the dots but getting a free socket, having it rain gems/runes and imbueing items were all quests that everyone remade characters for and leveled them/rushed them though the acts and difficutlys. That added replayability.

Now the best quest which should be in Diablo 3 from Diablo 2 is the hellforge quest. The current gems in this game is a fucking joke and laughable at best and the only way to get a top tier gem is spending millions of gold upgrading gems, we have no other way of getting them.

Edit:

While everyone did rush characters though normal, nightmare and hell for the quests, you could not get past act 5 with a level 1 without exploiting OR clever use of game mechanics, and so normal was 20, nightmare was 40 and hell was 60 for level caps.

Speaking of replayability, there are achievements in this game that require you to level two of the same class that gives no benefits besides epeen flexing. Now if there was a hellforge quest in Diablo 3 or a socket quest I would totally level the same class twice for those quests alone and you know what? That helm of command that i just crafted I can add a socket to it or that weapon with amazing stats that is missing a socket, I can add that socket to that weapon for fuck sakes, niggas do you understand what i'm trying to say here? Taking a weapon that you would normally not even pick up due to it not being IL63 or that you would vender. Seeing such weapon being totally amazing for you if it had a socket, well good news you can add that socket and use the fucking weapon instead of vendering it.

Did i just blow your fucking mind at the concept of taking a shitty item and making it a useable item?

Edited by DerpySkulls, 07 December 2012 - 10:24 AM.

[Sagathiest]

Bagstone, on 06 December 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

Sagathiest, on 06 December 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

The 'expert' has already covered what you mention under play-style.. the point is that there should be an advantage to choosing a particular play style but there is not one because everyone is equally balanced and thus able to perform equally in all situations, there is no unique advantage in loot terms to playing a barbarian vs a wizard because wizard and barbarian can farm equally well in all areas.

Hm, still don't get it. So please correct me if I understood you wrong, but what I read from this is: there should be classes that are less efficient in farming and classes that have clear advantages over the others. Is that what you're saying? So if I like to play a wizard just because of play style, I'm getting my ass kicked because just by design this is supposed to be the challenging class and it's tough to farm efficiently with it? Sounds odd... besides, as soon as there's even a slight hint of a class having an advantage over others, everyone rolls that class (see the recent rise of thousands of new barbs). I'm sorry if I'm derailing this topic here, in this case just ignore my question - just trying to understand what's going on here.

Im not talking in absolute terms. at the moment everyone is equally capable of farming all areas just as efficiently when you hold gear constant.

So if we take a barb and a wizard each who have 40000 Dps and decent defensive gear then there is very little to differentiate them, they will both be equally capable of farming equally well in all areas. What i would argue is that there should be certain advantages gained from choosing a wizard or a barbarian. Barbarians should be able to farm better in some areas than wizards and vice versa atm this is not the case. Once you take gear out of the equation and the mode by which damage is dealt, eg ranged vs me-lee there is no difference in which class you play.

So i'm not necessarily saying that some characters should be less powerful in quantity terms but i am saying that in certain areas certain classes should be able to perform better.

otherwise there is no comparative advantage and classes will only specialise in builds that maximise damage because the only problem to be solved is how to deal the maximum amount of damage. which is uninteresting.

For example in D2 a 2 tree sorceress had a competitive advantage over a 1 tree sorceress because they could farm more areas. Even though a 1 damage type sorceress had and competitive advantage in max damage.

Hope that clarifies.

One very clear aspect of the problem is that it does not matter what KIND of damage you are dealing all that matters is HOW MUCH. which creates a very clear centralisation of build towards maximum damage dealers.----not the whole issue but understanding that leads to a whole bunch of insights about team play and the economy of playing different classes.

Bring back damage type immunities anyone?....hmmm

Edited by Sagathiest, 07 December 2012 - 11:00 AM.

[Bagstone]

Yes, it does! And yes, I agree! In fact, I think one of the big design flaws in D3 (don't know if it was mentioned before) is that the amount of mobs per map increases in later acts. Act 1+2 have such a low mob density that as an Archon wizard you can't sustain Archon uptime there, so act 3 is the only place (and only some areas) you can go if you choose this build.

And yeah, there should be areas that deal different damage types (like in D2 act 2 poison, act 3 lightning, act 4 fire) and that are prone to different damage types (so that one of my favorite but at this point pointless spells, Arcane Orb, becomes useful in at least one area).

Thanks for clearing up my confusion.

[Sagathiest]

brx, on 06 December 2012 - 11:34 PM, said:

eldimmy, on 06 December 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

I think it's all about itemization, once "it's fixed" the game will become much better.
OP if you could make a video just discussing about it, You'll need follow some steps:
- Show D3 actual problem;
- Show why D2 itemization was so much sucessful compared to D3;
- Possible solution to make it as good as D2, but without having to revamp all game.

Here explains what's wrong with itemization in D3, and I hope you could make a video focused about it. http://imageshack.us...fographic.jpg#1

That image is just too good. I don't know if it can ever be changed because of the rmah and all the whine there would be from people having bought -stupid- gear, but maybe it will at the expansion.

It at least deserves a long discussion about it.

Yup that image rocks!!

Edited by Sagathiest, 07 December 2012 - 11:08 AM.

[Ducha]

brx, on 06 December 2012 - 09:58 PM, said:

alright I can agree with that. But it is about the only place where I had this feeling and it still does not come close to d2 to me.

Also on the thing of gore and all, one thing that really made D2 awesome was that the corpses didn't disappear, whether in D3 they do. So if you happen to be doing a corpse run then there's nothing to look at Maybe they did it because there would be too much crap on the screen or maybe they had other reasons. Either way, bad idea! I like seeing the trail of corpses i've created.

[Psychatog]

eldimmy, on 06 December 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

Here explains what's wrong with itemization in D3, and I hope you could make a video focused about it. http://imageshack.us...fographic.jpg#1

Saved and will be reposted, thank you.

[eldimmy]

To clarify, I'm not the owner of the image. I found it on battle.net forums on an itemization discussion, and jesus... it was just too good that I have to share here with you guys, and trust me, AT LEAST the Blues knows about it.

If they show that to jay, I think he would probably resign from his job.

[mlhaynes4]

eldimmy, on 08 December 2012 - 12:38 AM, said:

To clarify, I'm not the owner of the image. I found it on battle.net forums on an itemization discussion, and jesus... it was just too good that I have to share here with you guys, and trust me, AT LEAST the Blues knows about it.

If they show that to jay, I think he would probably resign from his job.

I agree 1000% that the image is just too good.. but if you think Jay would resign for any reason you've lost your mind.

The reason Blizzard went to main stat itemization is so they can release expansions the same way they do with WOW, where all gear is basically rendered useless from the previous. This completely recycles gear, and brings in a whole new influx of RMAH fees from people buying new gear. The itemization is so terrible, and blatantly flawed.. that there is no way they would've chosen this had they not had a damn good reason to use it. I think this is their reason.

[overneathe]

You guys know that Jay Wilson isn't the only guy at the top making decisions right? There's the executive producer - Rob Pardo (who is the main main guy), then below him are Jay Wilson, Ray Gresko, Kevin Martens... and then lots and lots of people that might not have the "final word", but have incredible influence on the design of the game. Not to mention Rob Pardo (head of Diablo department) was also a designer on Diablo 2.

I'm not trying to make a point here. Just bringing in information, which to a lot of people might actually be new. Jay Wilson is simply the voice of the team, while also having his responsibilities as well. When he comments on things or writes blogs he does say "We in the Diablo team" and not "me, who's in charge" for a reason. He does take major decisions, but no decision in any game company is simply "made" by a certain person. It's discussed thoroughly. Especially in Blizzard. That's why always the slow updates.

And not to even mention all the executives in the company that oversee the Blizzard team, where the RMAH was likely born.

Just figured I'd post this here.

[Vulmio]

Maybe an other reason they itemised like this is because now Blizzard want to make their games simpler. They don't want players to look at an item and ask themselves : "This item has funny properties, but is it better than mine ?". They want players to think : "Great, this item has bigger numbers than the item I currently use, let's go kill more monsters".

Edited by Vulmio, 08 December 2012 - 02:35 AM.

[brx]

overneathe, on 08 December 2012 - 02:24 AM, said:

You guys know that Jay Wilson isn't the only guy at the top making decisions right? There's the executive producer - Rob Pardo (who is the main main guy), then below him are Jay Wilson, Ray Gresko, Kevin Martens... and then lots and lots of people that might not have the "final word", but have incredible influence on the design of the game. Not to mention Rob Pardo (head of Diablo department) was also a designer on Diablo 2.

I'm not trying to make a point here. Just bringing in information, which to a lot of people might actually be new. Jay Wilson is simply the voice of the team, while also having his responsibilities as well. When he comments on things or writes blogs he does say "We in the Diablo team" and not "me, who's in charge" for a reason. He does take major decisions, but no decision in any game company is simply "made" by a certain person. It's discussed thoroughly. Especially in Blizzard. That's why always the slow updates.

And not to even mention all the executives in the company that oversee the Blizzard team, where the RMAH was likely born.

Just figured I'd post this here.

I does not matter much if the game designs come from one people or more. Fact is it is what it is. It obviously must have been though out but i'd bet not with the priorities of a gamer or a fan.

[overneathe]

Two things:

I was just saying waving around Jay's name like he's the end-all-be-all developer is kinda false. Which a lot of people do.

You can't say something is "obvious" when it might only be "obvious" to a select group of people to which you belong. Even if you consider yourself the majority. It's like saying the color of the Sun is yellow, when it's in fact white (or most colors if you want to go into that, but let's not derail). Only people that have that exact information know it for a fact.  And you can't really make a bet to anything that you'd practically never be able to know.

I am a gamer and a fan and enjoy Diablo 3. Your facts fail for me. And if a fact fails even the slightest it's no longer a fact.

[Bagstone]

overneathe, on 08 December 2012 - 05:08 AM, said:

I am a gamer and a fan and enjoy Diablo 3. Your facts fail for me. And if a fact fails even the slightest it's no longer a fact.

THIS.

Plus, all this Jay Wilson bashing recently... gosh, just because he essentially kicked all the PvP lovers in their asses by delaying the blog post? As a PvE D3 fan, I even liked this, yeah, so I guess I have to praise him. Has anyone of you ever heard the saying "DON'T SHOOT THE MESSENGER"?

[eldimmy]

OK I think some of you guys take things to seriously, just going to say a few things.

1 - When I/we say things like "jay wilson is bad, etc" is to express our indignation with the curently state of the game. It doesn't matter if he is the head chef or not (he's always in focus), and of course it's sound like ignorant, but the main point is that people don't accept certain designs of the game and some of them, like me, are trying to show him/blizzard ways to improve their game, just that. I think it's the same as everyone rages to Ghostcrawler about wow design. Obs: Also thanks for the information.

2 - I like D3 so much that even after some quits, I still play (only when my friends go online) nowadays. But really, it's so sad that many many many runs just results in hundreds and hundreds of rares right to the merchant, and now that they over buffed legendarys, rares (if not nearly perfect) are now more useless. Of course they have to buff legendaries, but with actual itemization you already know what to expect.

[Taisto]

Bagstone, on 08 December 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

overneathe, on 08 December 2012 - 05:08 AM, said:

I am a gamer and a fan and enjoy Diablo 3. Your facts fail for me. And if a fact fails even the slightest it's no longer a fact.

THIS.

Plus, all this Jay Wilson bashing recently... gosh, just because he essentially kicked all the PvP lovers in their asses by delaying the blog post? As a PvE D3 fan, I even liked this, yeah, so I guess I have to praise him. Has anyone of you ever heard the saying "DON'T SHOOT THE MESSENGER"?

Totally agree. D3 is really an awesome game already and keeps getting better.