88 replies to this topic

[RTG_Sibcoe]

Taisto, on 05 December 2012 - 08:55 PM, said:

DerpySkulls, on 04 December 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

One of the biggest problems with Diablo 3 is the team working on Diablo it self because they are not experienced in ARPGs, also fuck jay wilson.

Well I'd say they are doing one hell of a good job. Diablo 3 is still 3rd most played RPG after WOW, and a little behind GW. I've been playing since launch and I still really enjoy playing the game even with pvp not out yet. But I agree that there are many things that could use improvements and polishing. Luckily they are still working to make improvements so we know they are coming at some point. Imo people should keep giving more constructive feedback. I'm quite tired of every gaming forum of any game most of the posts are just whining and not giving any real feedback. Hopefully that would change at some point so it would be fun to read forums and see different ideas and improvements people come up with.

EDIT: forgot to ask from the OP that you said you wanted end game content. What end game content you would want because I'm not sure what would people want to add? You said that not MMOPRG type of content but then what would you want? For me, I enjoy the farming and killing ubers (and maybe pvp when it comes) which I think is the end game of diablo

Hi and thanks for posting.  I woud love to see more depth to the itemization and character building.  For example, paragon is ag reat start, but it is kind of 2-dimensional.  It also adds farming stats and magic find for a game that needs more itemization to be end game ready.  For example, runes words, charms, and the like would be a fantastic addition that would add a ton to the game.  It does not have to be exactly like D2, but that same kind of meta-game idea.  The meta-game needs work.  

I would love to see some better ways to build characters in a deeper way, as the removal of stat points and finding runes for skills, left a bit of a gap.  I would also like to see PvP, of course, and I think more unique uber type encounters would be great.  I think they could revamp crafting and create a massive amount of fun around high end crafting systems.  It is not that the game lacks the base foundation for end game systems, rather just the implementation.  I believe we will see much of this in future patches/expansion, and I look forward to it.  I hope the criticism lends itself to helping shape that progress.  

I do want to say clearly again, I love Diablo and the franchise, including D3.  I want to see it go from strength to strength, and I want to be a constructive part of the feedback loop.  Settling for good is a shame, when we could achieve something great.  

Thanks for watching, part 2 is uploading now.  Follow me on Twitter @redteamgaming for updates on when new shows go live and news etc.  Cheers 0/

[Bourrelle]

Very very nice video. I share most of your thoughts. I played D2 a lot (and D3) and I ended up with almost the same conclusions.

I agree with that fact that Whimeshire is an insult to the players (or even to the game franchise like your said). It’s like if they said, “ok so you want something hidden and secret: TAKE THAT, and next time don’t even bother us with something secret because it’s gonna be even worst and useless!...” That’s how I feel.

It’s like if they didn’t understand the meaning of The secret Cow level. It wasn't just a place or something minor in D2 (or D1 as I remember trying to find that place when I was a little kid). I mean, the secret Cow level, was an epic place to level up, to farm, it was also a great reason to group up (cow runs!), a funny place where deadly cows with axes were tyring to kill and surrend you while mooo mooooing. I mean, it was genius. And now what… Ponies and rainbows? Seriously? When I first entered the whimeshire level, I wan’t having a good time, I was pretty angry. Ponies and Rainbow in a DIABLO world where demon are trying to take over the world!!!! Anyway, you got my point.

I would like to suggest you 3 other subjects. The first one is crafting. I mean, you know as much as I do that this system is useless and could be much more important in the game. I like the design of it but its useless at the moment… Another thing is…. GAMBLING!! Hehe. Ok I have to admit that gambling in D1/D2 wasn’t a big functionality but… why removing it? Once in a while, I liked to gamble some rings or amulet in D2 just for the triiilll of getting a soj or something. And the last thing, And I think you should really cover that in part 2 is BattleNet. Why can’t we name our game like we used to do in D2? Why can’t I choose the game I want to join. I mean I would join a game named “Act2 Key fast run 001!” Now what, I have to talk in a channel of 100 persons (wtf!?! 2012…) and Hope someone is down for an act 2 key warden run. What are the odds? I have a lot to say on that topic but I’ll let you discuss it first and I’ll add my comments.

Anyway, I’m still enjoying D3 but there’s so much place for improvement. Im just trying to help J

[RTG_Sibcoe]

Bourrelle, on 05 December 2012 - 10:00 PM, said:

Very very nice video. I share most of your thoughts. I played D2 a lot (and D3) and I ended up with almost the same conclusions.

I agree with that fact that Whimeshire is an insult to the players (or even to the game franchise like your said). It’s like if they said, “ok so you want something hidden and secret: TAKE THAT, and next time don’t even bother us with something secret because it’s gonna be even worst and useless!...” That’s how I feel.

It’s like if they didn’t understand the meaning of The secret Cow level. It wasn't just a place or something minor in D2 (or D1 as I remember trying to find that place when I was a little kid). I mean, the secret Cow level, was an epic place to level up, to farm, it was also a great reason to group up (cow runs!), a funny place where deadly cows with axes were tyring to kill and surrend you while mooo mooooing. I mean, it was genius. And now what… Ponies and rainbows? Seriously? When I first entered the whimeshire level, I wan’t having a good time, I was pretty angry. Ponies and Rainbow in a DIABLO world where demon are trying to take over the world!!!! Anyway, you got my point.

I would like to suggest you 3 other subjects. The first one is crafting. I mean, you know as much as I do that this system is useless and could be much more important in the game. I like the design of it but its useless at the moment… Another thing is…. GAMBLING!! Hehe. Ok I have to admit that gambling in D1/D2 wasn’t a big functionality but… why removing it? Once in a while, I liked to gamble some rings or amulet in D2 just for the triiilll of getting a soj or something. And the last thing, And I think you should really cover that in part 2 is BattleNet. Why can’t we name our game like we used to do in D2? Why can’t I choose the game I want to join. I mean I would join a game named “Act2 Key fast run 001!” Now what, I have to talk in a channel of 100 persons (wtf!?! 2012…) and Hope someone is down for an act 2 key warden run. What are the odds? I have a lot to say on that topic but I’ll let you discuss it first and I’ll add my comments.

Anyway, I’m still enjoying D3 but there’s so much place for improvement. Im just trying to help J

Thanks for this awesome input.  Much appreciated, and I think you will see some new shows that those you recommend coming soon.

Cheers 0/

[RTG_Sibcoe]

By the way, Part 2 is live (with better audio :0 ):

State of Diablo Part 2: Classes

Enjoy - I look forward to your comments in channel and here.  

Cheers 0/

RTG Sibcoe
-----------------
www.youtube.com/redteamgaming
www.twitter.com/redteamgaming
www.facebook.com/Sibcoe

[bebobox]

I haven't played in months, didn't have the drive to farm act3 over and over and hope for a good drop. Now I plan on doing the Paragon levels and get better gear and kill everything on Monster Power 10

I don't get one thing though, why do you lose your stacks at the end of each act? Like... what is the point.

It would be really cool if you could do Azmodan Cydaea runs and go straight into Act4 with 5 stacks and slaughter everything. Feels like this game only has 3 act.

They have done a pretty good job at updating in my oppinion. Hopefully they will take everything they have learned to mash it into a sick xpac when that time comes around.

[brx]

RTG_Sibcoe, on 05 December 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

Hey all - Part 2 will be up in a few hours.  We discuss State of Diablo 3 classes.  Looking forward to your thoughts and ideas on it.  Cheers 0/

I haven't finished watching the first part, but did you had a discussion about the story and plotholes of the game? And maybe drawing a parallel on how it ties to the state the game?

Don't you think things like the ambience of d2, be it the gore or the musics and sounds, are gone for ever? (like diablo's balls -I had to.)

[brx]

Bourrelle, on 05 December 2012 - 10:00 PM, said:

And the last thing, And I think you should really cover that in part 2 is BattleNet. Why can’t we name our game like we used to do in D2? Why can’t I choose the game I want to join. I mean I would join a game named “Act2 Key fast run 001!” Now what, I have to talk in a channel of 100 persons (wtf!?! 2012…) and Hope someone is down for an act 2 key warden run. What are the odds? I have a lot to say on that topic but I’ll let you discuss it first and I’ll add my comments.

I feel it is from this dumbed down vibe of directly jumping in a game like on a console. There was nothing wrong with the d2 system so it's a shame imo.

[DerpySkulls]

Taisto, on 05 December 2012 - 08:55 PM, said:

DerpySkulls, on 04 December 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

One of the biggest problems with Diablo 3 is the team working on Diablo it self because they are not experienced in ARPGs, also fuck jay wilson.

Well I'd say they are doing one hell of a good job. Diablo 3 is still 3rd most played RPG after WOW, and a little behind GW. I've been playing since launch and I still really enjoy playing the game even with pvp not out yet. But I agree that there are many things that could use improvements and polishing. Luckily they are still working to make improvements so we know they are coming at some point. Imo people should keep giving more constructive feedback. I'm quite tired of every gaming forum of any game most of the posts are just whining and not giving any real feedback. Hopefully that would change at some point so it would be fun to read forums and see different ideas and improvements people come up with.

ARPG = action role playing game which is Diablo and not WoW or GW2, its alright people get it mixed up every now and then. A good way to remember ARPG just think of slaying everything in sight with your fully erect penis and not giving a fuck, in RPG games like WoW and GW2 you need the help of multiple erect penis' to take down boss'. On the note of everyone bitching about the game and not giving feed back. We are giving feed back by bitching and moaning because without that the Diablo 3 team wouldnt know what is wrong with their game. Lets not forget that they hardly listen to us anyways when we give true feed back and point out flaws. They just shrug us away when we do that, telling us what is fun for us or when we comment on their procedures about bots. It is very easy to get the botting problem under control yet they refuse to listen to us. Its not rocket science to look at who is doing what, oh i see a barb with full gold find gear and gold radius on 24/7 and has never set foot in inferno hmmm hes a real player let him pass.

[Bullkathos1928]

first step:

I have played diablo 2

- holy shit this game is fking great and awesome!

second step:

- woooww! i need more! how awesome a diablo 3 can be!!

diablo 3

honestly,

The physics are amazing!

the art are amazing!

thanks for that!

but, the history are so.... crap!

the skill sistem are fine, but damage and effects can´t depend only from weapon damage!!! this fuck the game!(sinergy was really great in diablo 2).

the game was built all arround the AH.

and the greateast mistake that i have seen in my all life:

No PVP.

wtf...

[RTG_Sibcoe]

brx, on 05 December 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:

RTG_Sibcoe, on 05 December 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

Hey all - Part 2 will be up in a few hours.  We discuss State of Diablo 3 classes.  Looking forward to your thoughts and ideas on it.  Cheers 0/

I haven't finished watching the first part, but did you had a discussion about the story and plotholes of the game? And maybe drawing a parallel on how it ties to the state the game?

Don't you think things like the ambience of d2, be it the gore or the musics and sounds, are gone for ever? (like diablo's balls -I had to.)

Oh man - Great topic and one that would take a whole show in itself.  The "feel" is missing, as I have said since early beta.  Great idea.  Cheers 0/

[JAKACHAN]

I agree on a lot of points but I'm tired of hearing about the removal of 5 stat points every level. Does enough strength and dex for gear rest in vit and none in energy really add that much character customization? The only other builds that really changed that were Energy Shield Sorcs and Glass Cannon Amazons and that is only 2 builds...

[Bodycount1]

I watched most of it.  I admit it was a little long and I skipped the last 15 min.

I do agree with most of both of you said.

I was an avid player.  I did an act 3 run at least once a night every single night for a couple months straight.  

Honestly the only reason I kept playing was the chance for that godly item to drop and the chance to make millions of gold on the AH.  

Now that they changed the drops rates on rares and legendaries so both drop a lot more.. the AH is flooded beyond what I or honestly anyone thought possible.  I can't sell anything I find anymore.  Stuff that would have went for 5-10 million three months ago.. now I have to vendor because posting it for 100k, it doesn't sell.  The main part of that is that there are 5 to 25 of the same item as mine.  Yes the stats are different but they are roughly the same range as my item stats.  So the only way to sell mine is to drop the price.  Well the price to sell most medium quality items now make them unsellable.  Plus the fact people are not wanting medium quality items since the majority of players are working on paragon levels.  People want best in slot.  And the chance to find best in slot is maybe one item every couple months if you farm every day.  

I can't do that anymore.  Like you said in the video.. this game has turned into a job that pays less than minimum wage.  No I don't sell on the RMAH but for me that's what it feels like.  The gold I get back from selling items isn't worth the time investment of getting those items.

MP levels also hurt my playing time.  I played Lineage 2 for awhile.  If anyone here knows that game.. it's the ultimate grind RPG.  The Koreans love that style of gaming though so that's what it is.  I quit playing a couple months into it because I just didn't have the time to farm and maybe gain one level per week.


Finally.. I want to bring up the last point.  The biggest point that has pissed me off about this game.  I feel I got jipped in content.  Sure playing act 1 through act 4 on normal was fun.  But then what do I have to do after that?  Play the same damn game again with a little harder content.  Then repeat it again.  and finally repeat it again.  I feel that my $60 that I paid for this game was for 1/4 of the "finished" game that should have been there.  There should have been an act 5 all the way through act 16.  I wouldn't care if they used the same polygons or reused graphics from time to time.  I just wanted a different game.  Save different people.  Kill different bosses.

[Sagathiest]

ive got to say i really agree with the OP. Especially regarding class balancing a drop balancing across acts. Ive said before that it it is boring to have the same items be able to drop from all monsters. The ubers/hellfire works around this abit but it is nowhere near enough. Diablo as the final boss should have a much better chance and potentially even exclusively drop certain epic items and the same for other final act bosses. otherwise there is no incentive to run them. the cost in terms of time relative to Alkaizer runs is too high compared with the reward.

There other problem which arises because of this is class specialisation and differentiation. because of the way characters are balanced every class is just as good as every other class at farming a given area. There is no such thing as having a competitive or comparative advantage between classes.

A Dialogue between D3 noob and.D3 expert

noob; which class should i pick?
Expert; just pick the one which best suits your playstyle
noob; i want to play the class which is best at farming diablo.
Expert; there is no best class there all the same
Noob;:so no class is better at doing anything than any other class?
Expert: nar blizzard balances them to be equal in all situations
Noob: so whats the point of having classes in the first place?
Expert: um....they look different and have different skills?

You get the idea. The classes are different but only in a very superficial way, and areas are different but loot drops are the same in all areas.


1.So people only farm the most efficient area. because there is no comparative to farming one area vs another
2. there is no comparative advantage to playing a different class so most people just play one class.

It all results in boring centralisation of stats, skills, farming, gear and classes for the individual

[RTG_Sibcoe]

Sagathiest, on 06 December 2012 - 07:55 AM, said:

ive got to say i really agree with the OP. Especially regarding class balancing a drop balancing across acts. Ive said before that it it is boring to have the same items be able to drop from all monsters. The ubers/hellfire works around this abit but it is nowhere near enough. Diablo as the final boss should have a much better chance and potentially even exclusively drop certain epic items and the same for other final act bosses. otherwise there is no incentive to run them. the cost in terms of time relative to Alkaizer runs is too high compared with the reward.

There other problem which arises because of this is class specialisation and differentiation. because of the way characters are balanced every class is just as good as every other class at farming a given area. There is no such thing as having a competitive or comparative advantage between classes.

A Dialogue between D3 noob and.D3 expert

noob; which class should i pick?
Expert; just pick the one which best suits your playstyle
noob; i want to play the class which is best at farming diablo.
Expert; there is no best class there all the same
Noob;:so no class is better at doing anything than any other class?
Expert: nar blizzard balances them to be equal in all situations
Noob: so whats the point of having classes in the first place?
Expert: um....they look different and have different skills?

You get the idea. The classes are different but only in a very superficial way, and areas are different but loot drops are the same in all areas.


1.So people only farm the most efficient area. because there is no comparative to farming one area vs another
2. there is no comparative advantage to playing a different class so most people just play one class.

It all results in boring centralisation of stats, skills, farming, gear and classes for the individual

Well put and thanks for watching.  I agree here, and I really like how you explain it.  Nice job   Cheers 0/

[Bagstone]

Sagathiest, on 06 December 2012 - 07:55 AM, said:

A Dialogue between D3 noob and.D3 expert

noob; which class should i pick?
Expert; just pick the one which best suits your playstyle
noob; i want to play the class which is best at farming diablo.
Expert; there is no best class there all the same
Noob;:so no class is better at doing anything than any other class?
Expert: nar blizzard balances them to be equal in all situations
Noob: so whats the point of having classes in the first place?
Expert: um....they look different and have different skills?

What a stupid "expert" would that be who would give that last answer?

There are different classes because some people like the glass canon ranged damage dealers, some like the heavily hitting barbarians, some like to be supporters (tank/heal/buffs/...), some like nice magical spell animations while others like to smash things with a big mace...

Creating all these different play styles while maintaining balance is the most difficult challenge for any game design, btw.

[Ducha]

AudioCG, on 05 December 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:

If they want to be super awesome, they could add a "Endless dungeon" in Act 4, but that would require a lot of work.

Everyone wants an endless dungeon! I don't blame them! it's a great idea!! If blizzard didn't take a thing or two away from that Top 10 list a while back then I will be disappointed.

brx, on 05 December 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:

Don't you think things like the ambience of d2, be it the gore or the musics and sounds, are gone for ever? (like diablo's balls -I had to.)

Not at all! There is just as much if not more gore in Diablo 3! Just check out the zones in most of act 1, nearly all of act 2, and here and there in act 3! in terms of the music and sound, I stopped listening to the music because it's too strange. It definitely has the diablo feel to it but it just doesn't feel right for what we're doing (hacking and slashing our way to victory) Perhaps it isn't epic enough?

Edited by Ducha, 06 December 2012 - 10:33 AM.

[Sagathiest]

Bagstone, on 06 December 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

Sagathiest, on 06 December 2012 - 07:55 AM, said:

A Dialogue between D3 noob and.D3 expert

noob; which class should i pick?
Expert; just pick the one which best suits your playstyle
noob; i want to play the class which is best at farming diablo.
Expert; there is no best class there all the same
Noob;:so no class is better at doing anything than any other class?
Expert: nar blizzard balances them to be equal in all situations
Noob: so whats the point of having classes in the first place?
Expert: um....they look different and have different skills?

What a stupid "expert" would that be who would give that last answer?

There are different classes because some people like the glass canon ranged damage dealers, some like the heavily hitting barbarians, some like to be supporters (tank/heal/buffs/...), some like nice magical spell animations while others like to smash things with a big mace...

Creating all these different play styles while maintaining balance is the most difficult challenge for any game design, btw.

The 'expert' has already covered what you mention under play-style.. the point is that there should be an advantage to choosing a particular play style but there is not one because everyone is equally balanced and thus able to perform equally in all situations, there is no unique advantage in loot terms to playing a barbarian vs a wizard because wizard and barbarian can farm equally well in all areas.

Edited by Sagathiest, 06 December 2012 - 10:39 AM.

[Runner55]

brx, on 05 December 2012 - 10:34 PM, said:

Bourrelle, on 05 December 2012 - 10:00 PM, said:

And the last thing, And I think you should really cover that in part 2 is BattleNet. Why can’t we name our game like we used to do in D2? Why can’t I choose the game I want to join. I mean I would join a game named “Act2 Key fast run 001!” Now what, I have to talk in a channel of 100 persons (wtf!?! 2012…) and Hope someone is down for an act 2 key warden run. What are the odds? I have a lot to say on that topic but I’ll let you discuss it first and I’ll add my comments.

I feel it is from this dumbed down vibe of directly jumping in a game like on a console. There was nothing wrong with the d2 system so it's a shame imo.

I feel that this is a problem that grows with every passing year. And it's not exclusive to Battle.net, Blizzard or games for that matter. No, it's everywhere. Everything is being "accessibilitized" to the point of where it's ridiculous. But since this forum is focusing on Diablo (and therefor Blizzard indirectly) I'll stick to that.

Starcraft 2 - enter your password and log in. Click multiplayer and then find game. A couple seconds later you're hooked up with someone you're supposed to have roughly a 50% chance to win against - it's all been calculated for you. Extremely accessible, but also cold, sterile and stressful. There's a reason why there's this thing people call ladder anxiety.

World of Warcraft - At some point in this games' life the dungeon finder was implemented. Later on this system incorporated raids. This obliterated much of the need for going outside a main city and actually engage in the world. Also, since cross-realm functionality is tied to LFD/LFR, anonymity increased alot. This resulted in the fact that people started caring much less about any consequence of their negative actions, like quitting because they lost a roll. LFD/LFR certainly increased accessibility, but resulted in lots of people logging in once a week to raid only to log off when they finished.

Diablo III - Log in and hit play (or resume game) and you're in, or choose multiplayer followed by quest and then play. Also very accessible - to everyone. A new game is just around the corner, 99.99% guaranteed to be with a player or players you've never met before and won't ever meet again. Joining and quitting other games is seamless to the point where the game expects zero dedication from you as a player. If you're dedicated to something, why spend time with people who might not be dedicated to the same thing, perhaps not dedicated at all?

Battle.net 2.0 is built to support this sort of accessibility, and I'm sure the intention was good, but I feel that the end result is negative. I can only speculate that even Blizzard feels the same to some extent, as they at some point after the launch of the platform reverted to just call it Battle.net again.

[Bagstone]

Sagathiest, on 06 December 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

The 'expert' has already covered what you mention under play-style.. the point is that there should be an advantage to choosing a particular play style but there is not one because everyone is equally balanced and thus able to perform equally in all situations, there is no unique advantage in loot terms to playing a barbarian vs a wizard because wizard and barbarian can farm equally well in all areas.

Hm, still don't get it. So please correct me if I understood you wrong, but what I read from this is: there should be classes that are less efficient in farming and classes that have clear advantages over the others. Is that what you're saying? So if I like to play a wizard just because of play style, I'm getting my ass kicked because just by design this is supposed to be the challenging class and it's tough to farm efficiently with it? Sounds odd... besides, as soon as there's even a slight hint of a class having an advantage over others, everyone rolls that class (see the recent rise of thousands of new barbs). I'm sorry if I'm derailing this topic here, in this case just ignore my question - just trying to understand what's going on here.

More on topic, I agree with many things that have been said here, but it's also the view of people with many hundreds of hours of play time. Blizzard said multiple time before release that D3 is supposed to be a very accessible game, they recently said it's not supposed to become esports, and they are trying to bring the same long-term motivation to D3 that D2 had, but it'll just take a while... D2 wasn't great from the beginning, either (I remember that it got terrible ratings and lots of criticism at first).

[Hans]

D3 already has more end game content than any of the diablo games and that is part of the problem for D3 at least for me. Blizzard focused most of their effort into the end game and the whole game suffers for it. For me it is no fun in creating new characters or even thinking up new builds since for the most part you need to be in the high 50's for a build since you need one of the higher rune effects on a skill. To me I play a game that is fun from the beginning and not one that is not fun at the beginning and hope it gets better.

For D1 it was always about building a character and to try to make the character work based on the drops since I did not have internet or he unofficial Sierra expansion pack.

D2 was about making new characters and sometimes using items dropped from other characters. I made many strange and unique characters as well as the standard builds. I never found it boring to start out a new character. I found for the most part the items in D2 as well in D1 to be well done and not just a stat stick as in the case for 99.999% of items in D3.

*****

In response to stats and allocating it yourself.

In can work both ways but I find it better if you can choose where they go. The problem with D3 is that they made some improvements to the stats but in the end they made the few points you get in levelling meaningless since you are likely to get 10 times more on your gear and that made your gear into stat sticks and that is part of the reason why the item hunt is really boring since you are mostly focusing on the primary stats on the gear.

If they make a great effort on the stats you can pick or maybe better yet have the stats you pick be a percentage boost or some other modifier or unique affix or perk.