104 replies to this topic

[ruksak]

Jaetch, on 28 November 2012 - 08:06 AM, said:

As for pride... Eh, I think the pride I have right now is that I know how to properly gear, stat-wise. Other than that, what I do with the gear I ended up getting.

That's an excellent point. Knowing how to use your build (tactics/skill) would also be included in this line of thought.

I did a lot of competitive melee dueling in D2 and went up against quite a few people whom obviously (sometimes admittedly) just bought full zealot gears, but they didn't understand the subtleties of AR/IAS breakpoints etc.

I don't want anyone thinking I was trying to take a shot at people whom spend real money on gears, as if they're incapable or lazy. I'm just stating how I feel, personally, about what leaves me fulfilled with a game like Diablo. I am only fulfilled when I accomplish character upgrades without resorting to real money purchases, much the same I wouldn't feel fulfilled by scamming people. Though the moral implications of scamming go way beyond what anyone could fairly claim against RMAH'ers.

Much of the bitterness that 'straight edge' players like myself have toward people whom buy gear/gold comes from the bad apples that buy all their gear and then make fun of others (whom don't buy gears) for having less than elite gears.

Jaetch seems like the type of player that would never do this.

[ruksak]

KyKaH, on 28 November 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

But playing the video game is kinda stupid anyway, you should not be doing this in the first place, you're just wasting your time... But we all do play the game, so one stupid thing leads to another.

You shouldn't listen to the shit that some outside of our interests have to say. I've had a few people drop this line of bullshit on me before, and I was quick to point out that (moderate) gaming is no more a waste of time than watching 6 hours of DVR'd television content every night.

I so love it when some dizzy cunt tells me gaming is a waste yet she/he goes home and watches American Idol, along with a long list of equally brainless fodder.

[bluq]

KyKaH, on 28 November 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

You asked for opinion.
Is it acceptable? - Yes, it's your money.
Is it reasonable? - No, it's kinda stupid.

But playing the video game is kinda stupid anyway, you should not be doing this in the first place, you're just wasting your time... But we all do play the game, so one stupid thing leads to another. Anyway you probably would throw your money away on drinks or women or whatever - if you prefer things you can't touch or taste , but help you to fight imaginary demon lord - it's you choice, no one who plays the game is in position to judge you.

Pursuing hobbies is a waste of time.
This whole debate is more philosophical than anything else.
If I want to glue together little parts so it gets a one big thing,is this stupid? Of course it is, you don't "gain" anything from it.
At least nothing material, but what you gain is satisfaction and fun.
The same that people gain who don't have the time to grind 500 hours elite but want to play the game and a higher level.

[KyKaH]

bluq, on 28 November 2012 - 10:24 AM, said:

Pursuing hobbies is a waste of time.
This whole debate is more philosophical than anything else.
If I want to glue together little parts so it gets a one big thing,is this stupid? Of course it is, you don't "gain" anything from it.
At least nothing material, but what you gain is satisfaction and fun.
The same that people gain who don't have the time to grind 500 hours elite but want to play the game and a higher level.

I see your point, but hobbies can be different. I'm looking into two kind of activities: you create something or you're wasting your time. So say crafting, music, painting, art, etc or even sport are somehow productive hobbies improving you as a person and producing some stuff for other people, while videogaming, drinknig etc. are counterproductive. But I'm not like pointing fingers, more like amittiing things )

Edited by KyKaH, 28 November 2012 - 10:32 AM.

[Huminator]

I have no problem with people chosing to spend a little of their own hard earned money on the rmah. Without those, the rest of us wouldnt be able to sell stuff on rmah.

"No one should spend any money on virtual goods because that's worthless in comparison to real life activities."
Have you ever considered, that they can do both?

Its generaly teenagers who angers about people spending some money on their character. The exact same people, who every weekend spend pretty much every dime they have on alchohol. And they talk about blowing money away lol.

Don't worry what other people spend their own money for. Who knows maybe that can just afford it, maybe they do it instead of buying small trains og collecting toy cars.... Spending a few hundred $ a month on diablo, is still cheaper than ie golfing for a hobby.

And take into consideration, without anyone to buy the stuff, we wont be able to sell the stuff. Buyers complete the circle.

[ruksak]

bluq, on 28 November 2012 - 10:24 AM, said:

KyKaH, on 28 November 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

You asked for opinion.
Is it acceptable? - Yes, it's your money.
Is it reasonable? - No, it's kinda stupid.

But playing the video game is kinda stupid anyway, you should not be doing this in the first place, you're just wasting your time... But we all do play the game, so one stupid thing leads to another. Anyway you probably would throw your money away on drinks or women or whatever - if you prefer things you can't touch or taste , but help you to fight imaginary demon lord - it's you choice, no one who plays the game is in position to judge you.

Pursuing hobbies is a waste of time.
This whole debate is more philosophical than anything else.
If I want to glue together little parts so it gets a one big thing,is this stupid? Of course it is, you don't "gain" anything from it.
At least nothing material, but what you gain is satisfaction and fun.
The same that people gain who don't have the time to grind 500 hours elite but want to play the game and a higher level.

If we wish to pursue the philosophical line; I could argue that anything you do outside of securing provisions for your survival, is a waste of time.

Edited by ruksak, 28 November 2012 - 11:45 AM.

[baron01]

First of all, I only reply to OP because this debate is largely based on personal preferences and individual tastes, therefore, there is not much point to react on a posts of others.

I would not use my real-life earnings to buy virtual goods. I'm past the point now but I did it in the past in various forms. I obviously buy computer games. I also played MMO games, namely World of Warcraft, for a long time, which required regular payments for subscription. Both of given examples mean that I spent real-life cash to purchase virtual goods--games. I also did participate in games where micro-transaction were used and I did spend small amount of my money to buy certain "necessity" goods. I simply do not see a reason to spend my money on virtual goods within a game itself any longer.

I dont want to use my money on such things even though I can afford it easily--and I have house, car and certain living standards to pay for along the way. I just choose not to do it. If there is strong enough motivation to spend my money on these virtual goods, I might consider it.

I also do not see any issue with others spending their money on such goods. It is their choice so why would I care. Even more so when it happens in games such as Diablo 3 where others progress is completely irrelevant to my gaming experience. It might be a different story when real money would start to play a role in a game with competitive content but again it would be my choice to spend real money or not. I would have to agree with myself whether I want to do it or not. Nobody else business but mine.

[slaugther]

KyKaH, on 28 November 2012 - 10:31 AM, said:

I see your point, but hobbies can be different. I'm looking into two kind of activities: you create something or you're wasting your time. So say crafting, music, painting, art, etc or even sport are somehow productive hobbies improving you as a person and producing some stuff for other people, while videogaming, drinknig etc. are counterproductive. But I'm not like pointing fingers, more like amittiing things )

Actually there are research that suggest your partially wrong about videogaming since different studies have shown improvement in motorskills, eyesight, decisionmaking due to playing certain videogames. I recall a study that showed that some neural signals which existed in spec ops soldiers where also availlable in cs esporters.

Edited by slaugther, 28 November 2012 - 12:44 PM.

[Enkeria]

Jaetch, on 28 November 2012 - 06:47 AM, said:

So here's the question:
- What is your opinion on spending real-life currency on virtual entertainment goods?

Waist of time. I want to find my loot while playing. I have already paid for Diablo 3 and I never liked WoW for the monthly cost. Things that cost extra is something I take a distance from. I just want things I really need in life, and "virtual goods" does not make my life any easier or happier. This is why I do not spend on useless things, both in-game and outside of games.

[ruksak]

Enkeria, on 28 November 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

Jaetch, on 28 November 2012 - 06:47 AM, said:

So here's the question:
- What is your opinion on spending real-life currency on virtual entertainment goods?

Waist of time. I want to find my loot while playing. I have already paid for Diablo 3 and I never liked WoW for the monthly cost. Things that cost extra is something I take a distance from. I just want things I really need in life, and "virtual goods" does not make my life any easier or happier. This is why I do not spend on useless things, both in-game and outside of games.

For me it's not about the subtraction of money from my wallet. It's about the subtraction of the challenge of gearing up.

[Enkeria]

ruksak, on 28 November 2012 - 01:03 PM, said:

Enkeria, on 28 November 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

Jaetch, on 28 November 2012 - 06:47 AM, said:

So here's the question:
- What is your opinion on spending real-life currency on virtual entertainment goods?

Waist of time. I want to find my loot while playing. I have already paid for Diablo 3 and I never liked WoW for the monthly cost. Things that cost extra is something I take a distance from. I just want things I really need in life, and "virtual goods" does not make my life any easier or happier. This is why I do not spend on useless things, both in-game and outside of games.

For me it's not about the subtraction of money from my wallet. It's about the subtraction of the challenge of gearing up.

For the sake of Diablo 3 gameplay, you are totally right. As a general note, I do keep my statement as before.

[Bagstone]

ruksak, on 28 November 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

GroentjeBE, on 28 November 2012 - 07:04 AM, said:

First of all, it's your money, you worked for it. Sounds to me Trail might be young kid hating on the more 'adult' players for beeing able to put money in the game. Anyways... @ the end of the line you choose what to do with your money...

I wouldn't make that assumption. Many old school RPG'ers like myself frown on short-cuts, no matter what your excuse is. I work too, only part time but I own several rental properties that consume much of my time, not to mention being a single father.

No matter what your excuse is... well, there here's my excuse:

I waited for Diablo 3 for years. Then Diablo 3 release date was just exactly at a time where I couldn't play for 3 months. When I started playing mid-September, all my friends with whom I played Diablo 1+2 for 15 years and waited eagerly for D3, were already geared up and started progress on paragon levels. They had piled up some gear for me, but it wasn't really enough to even survive in Inferno. Since they have more time than I do, I would have never been able to catch up with them. So, I ended up spending some real money (D'OH!) to close the gear gap - but only a bit to get some gold and not a big amount of money.

If I hadn't done this, I just wouldn't be playing today, because the only time I played D2 was with them, and it's the same for D3. Given that I just don't have the time to farm all that stuff, there was no other way (remember, they play more hours/week than I do). However, I only did this shortly after I hit 60 and ever since then, I haven't put any real money into the game and don't intend to do so - I even thought about cashing out to get my money back, but to be honest, I don't care.

ruksak, on 28 November 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

True pride in your character can only be achieved by doing it 'the old fashioned way'. By purchasing gold/items, you have chosen a shortcut, you have chosen to bypass effort and cut straight to the quick with your wallet.

In seconds, you achieve what takes me weeks, even months to reach.

It is your own business how you game, as well, how you achieve prominence in-game. But do not pretend that there is any sense of pride to be gleamed from a bought character.

Actually, I agree with all that progress thing and that it's nice to spend weeks in order to achieve something. However, in my personal opinion, "pride" is the wrong word. In the end, whether you spend a lot of time or money, it's either of that which lets you achieve something in D3. I don't feel any pride about that. In the end, I know that if I play a certain amount of time, I'm gonna find some items that I can sell or wear myself as an upgrade. I don't know how to describe the feeling, but "pride" sounds wrong to me. It does feel good to find a nice item, but I think for me it's more like playing the lottery and winning it; and of course I wouldn't be proud about that. When in our group one of us is on a bad streak and doesn't get any legendary drops, we even cross our fingers that this person gets a nice item drop soon, because we all know how it feels if you play for several hours/days and don't get a legendary. Therefore, I would treat the RMAH and the pride discussion separately here.

On the topic, what's my personal opinion about this (as someone who once used the RMAH but quit the RMAH business weeks ago):

1) I was a student once and would have loved the opportunity to get money out of the time that I invested in the game. Therefore, if someone has the money and buys stuff, it only helps those "poor students", I like that.

2) Some people buy stupid games for 60 bucks every month, play it for 5-10 hours (complete campaign once) and throw them away. If you play a game for years, why not spend the same money on that game and just treat it like "instead of buying Call of Duty #58374, let's put that money in the game that actually has some new content every now and then". In D2, I never used any trading (I only played and traded with my friends, so within our group we always played "self-found") - but I spent actual money because we run out of storage space and bought some more D2 keys... it was also nice as host for games, using a shared stash among our friends, or a separate account if someone who didn't own D2 wanted to play with us on a night when they came over.

3) Like Küken and Cryomatic said, D3 is not competitive (it will never be an e-sports game, even when PvP arrives, just like Blizzard recently announced). In a non-competitive game, and especially in a game which involves so much luck like D3, I don't see why real money would be considered cheating. IMHO, there's not much difference between using the AH and the RMAH, but it's just my personal view.

Edited by Bagstone, 28 November 2012 - 02:10 PM.

[Bagstone]

ruksak, on 28 November 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

Much of the bitterness that 'straight edge' players like myself have toward people whom buy gear/gold comes from the bad apples that buy all their gear and then make fun of others (whom don't buy gears) for having less than elite gears.

Jaetch seems like the type of player that would never do this.

I couldn't agree more.

If you think people who spend real money on a game are jerks, just look at Jaetch, he's the perfect example of the opposite. He is completely aware that his gear is over the top and he is able to reflect on that. Even though his wizard is geared beyond insanity, he is able to give people useful advice who have 10% of his DPS. I hate it when people who just scratched the 100k DPS mark act as if they had beaten the game and almost spit at people looking for help ("rofl, your weapon is crap, you're so stupid, ..."). We all once were at this point - whether we used money, gold, or grinding items to proceed, is a different topic.

We all try to help these people here (well, at least most of us), and Jaetch has done so not only with lots of helpful posts, but also by giving them gear. Some of his real money is probably by now distributed over the US realm on poor wizards who progress a bit better just because he decided to help them. If you never use the (RM)AH but you don't respect other people, you're more of a jerk than anyone who put real money into the AH.

[ailoze]

The fun part is that people make too much of a fuss about real money. Whether you buy stuff for gold or for real money - it doesn't matter. Both are, in essence, your time. The key difference is - gold is less convertible, meaning you generally can't buy real stuff for it. All the other things which matter - how much you overcomplicate things, in which currency you earn the same worth of diablo gear faster, and whether you want to take a shortcut to better gear and smoother farming, or not.
Can't really call this a philosophical question.. Most people just tend to value money more than it's worth.

[ruksak]

Bagstone, on 28 November 2012 - 02:10 PM, said:

IMHO, there's not much difference between using the AH and the RMAH, but it's just my personal view.

I must STRONGLY disagree with that.

There is no difference between the GAH and trade games via D2. It's just a different vehicle for the same transaction method. You have to play, hustle, save your scratch and spend smart to gear up intelligently. It is just a more accommodating,  efficient method of trading your earned wealth for other players commodities/items.

The difference between the GAH and the RMAH are striking when considering to what end they can be taken.

Via the GAH; You must play to earn wealth/commodities/items in order to enter the GAH and leave having progressed.

Via the RMAH; You could literally have never played, install the game, enter the RMAH and walk out with the best gear in the game (of course you have to level before using it). <<<This is what makes a lot of people act angry about RMAH'ers. Not me, just sayin. Some people cannot stand to have others be "better" than them.

Honestly, I think the most vocal haters of the RMAH are people whom have no means to participate in the RMAH, but they want to.

Edited by ruksak, 28 November 2012 - 02:37 PM.

[ruksak]

Bagstone, on 28 November 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

ruksak, on 28 November 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

Much of the bitterness that 'straight edge' players like myself have toward people whom buy gear/gold comes from the bad apples that buy all their gear and then make fun of others (whom don't buy gears) for having less than elite gears.

Jaetch seems like the type of player that would never do this.

I couldn't agree more.

If you think people who spend real money on a game are jerks, just look at Jaetch, he's the perfect example of the opposite. He is completely aware that his gear is over the top and he is able to reflect on that. Even though his wizard is geared beyond insanity, he is able to give people useful advice who have 10% of his DPS. I hate it when people who just scratched the 100k DPS mark act as if they had beaten the game and almost spit at people looking for help ("rofl, your weapon is crap, you're so stupid, ..."). We all once were at this point - whether we used money, gold, or grinding items to proceed, is a different topic.

We all try to help these people here (well, at least most of us), and Jaetch has done so not only with lots of helpful posts, but also by giving them gear. Some of his real money is probably by now distributed over the US realm on poor wizards who progress a bit better just because he decided to help them. If you never use the (RM)AH but you don't respect other people, you're more of a jerk than anyone who put real money into the AH.

+1 to that.

Jaetch is a cool cat. Good point about the redistribution of wealth.

Myself, I have yet to hit that lottery drop. My top three net gold sales are 49.5mil for a 410 damage 8.5CC Gory Fetch, 42mil for IK boots w/ pickup and 15mil for some rare pants back in 1.04. Aside from that, a litany of 5-12mil sales. My most expensive item (that I use) is my amulet (Monk linked in my siggy) and that is self-found. Worth more than all my other gear combined.

Edited by ruksak, 28 November 2012 - 03:06 PM.

[Syronicus]

ruksak, on 28 November 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

True pride in your character can only be achieved by doing it 'the old fashioned way'. By purchasing gold/items, you have chosen a shortcut, you have chosen to bypass effort and cut straight to the quick with your wallet.

Working in real life to make real money is not doing things the hard way? If you work a real job, make money then use some of that money to advance your game play experience then you are actually doing it in the oldest of fashions. This mentality that if you spend money for in-game items then you are not doing it right is a mentality that is only seen by those who think money falls off of trees. People have to work for the same money that paid for the game right? So if they are spending less money on other games and using that money to forward their personal experience in one game then is that just to new of a concept to be recognizes by the purist "old fashioned" folks? Some folks don’t have time to grind in-game all day because they are grinding all day at a real job and the money they make at their real job lets them get to the point they want to reach in-game by buying some upgrades that they would have otherwise never had the time to find. You’re going to spend your time somewhere, in-game or in a job and how you spend the money you make is of no concern to others.

I have spent some cash in-game and find it rewarding. I like having a few extra bucks that might have otherwise been spent on fast food and spending on my game so that I can enjoy a new piece of gear. Heck, it not only affects my game experience but my waistline as well!

[Sartorius]

The way I see it, there should be two ways of playing the game (just like hardcore and softcore) for softcore: one that allows both the auction houses and one that only allows gah. I have nothing against people buying stuff for real money, you can do as you please. Life is all about doing whatever the fuck you want, right? But I'd honestly prefer to be ranked among those that don't buy items with real life money. Mainly because I'm not interested in investing cash into a game I might not be playing tomorrow, nor do I like receiving "free stuff" in game. I mean, I could probably go with it and buy some godly Echoing fury for my monk, but then I'd probably be hella bored.

//please note that the way the game is right now is not something that effects me profoundly. I would like to have it the other way, but I'm fine with it.

Edited by Sartorius, 28 November 2012 - 02:58 PM.

[ruksak]

Syronicus, on 28 November 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

ruksak, on 28 November 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

True pride in your character can only be achieved by doing it 'the old fashioned way'. By purchasing gold/items, you have chosen a shortcut, you have chosen to bypass effort and cut straight to the quick with your wallet.

Working in real life to make real money is not doing things the hard way?

lol.....with all due respect, you're going to break your arm reaching like that. NO...just ....no. What you do in life is entirely external to the gaming realm.

Quote

how you spend the money you make is of no concern to others.

It's not that it's my "concern". I'm just sayin......if you buy items you inarguabley have chosen a shortcut. Nevermind where or how you garnered the money. Nevermind how much time you have. When you enter the RMAH to buy items/gold, you are making a choice to circumvent effort by monetary means.

You are buying something that other people play the game to earn. We all work....OK...maybe not all of us ....but I know I do. I have a daughter, friends, many interests like fishing, hunting and 4-wheeling (did I mention bitches?) and I hold myself to no excuses as to why I would even think of cheating myself of the experience to earn my gears.

Edited by ruksak, 28 November 2012 - 03:00 PM.

[Tesla]

I've canceled my wow subscription and pumped some of that money into D3, after trying to find/finance upgrades for several month without RL cash. It did not work out, so I was really glad when I finally had the funds to make a big upgrade. It really improved my game experience and was worth it.

On the other hand I had to play ubers/keyruns with a friend of a friend who invested tons of cash into his newly leveled char. His paperdoll stats were amazing but he was close to useless when doing ubers. He had five times the EHP and ten times the life steal/life on hit than me. Nevertheless he kept dying. And I really despise that type of players.