58 replies to this topic

[Adhal]

Hmmm you started off your rant decent, but sorta went downhill after (OP's post). Being the 2 main classes I play are monk and barb, plus dabble a bit in wiz I thought I would add my thoughts on this.

I completely agree with the life steal situation, going between barb and monk I really feel the difference between 6% and 3%, sure I could get LS on both my monks weapons, but with CD socket AS it gets pretty spendy fast. I think all belt should have LS to help even things up there.

Next point i wanted to hit on is the whole Inna's vs IK. Your right, no high end monks use full Inna's... then again no high end barbs use full IK. In fact you could make the argument that almost all high end barbs use Inna's pants while no high end monks use any IK piece. See how that gets twised around? both sets have good and bad points, but the full sets in either cases are used only for speed farming, and in barbs case more for people who have issues with rage.

As for resists, well Monks still have the advantage as long as OwE stays in play, take that away and then yes monks will be in huge trouble. Atm being able to get 100-150 resists off one piece is etremely nice and makes up for lack of resist in other pieces. Also opens up some cheaper options in gearing and while lets say an Inna's Vast Expanse may not have res all standard, you can get one with a single resist fairly cheaply.

Speed of farming, well... what are we talking about here? If your trying to farm higher MPs faster, sure Barb is better, problem is higher mps arent really an advantage. TR tears though lower Mps and i got min started with TR for less than 50m. I don't know about other people who play both classes, but I for one feel slow when playing my barb as ww after playing TR. Also I can stop and go " OHH! SHINEY!" w/o having to worry about zerk falling off lol. Still, monks could use a slight boost to TR, maybe lower spirit costs or not basing cost on weapon speed.

Speaking of damage, I think a lot of people really under estimate the true damage a monk can put out. MoC is amazing 48% damage at a near 100% uptime, and everyone in party benifits, you do reallyize your every other classes best friend when your running this right? When I'm on my barb I will make love to any monk on the spot that starts spamming MoC like a champ. Oh and lets not forget Cyclone... amazing aoe dps, arguably the best aoe dps in the game. Problem I think is a lot of monks dps doesn't show on paper doll, so people think its less then it is, but paper doll in no way, shape, or form reflects actual dps on any class. Is a monk gonna beat a decked out DW HotA barb single target? Prob not, though I don't think any class can single target atm (maybe a dh). But a monk will do much more aoe dps and also will wipe the floor with a ww barb (sorry guys but WW barbs dps blows hard).

There is one major gripe I have between barb and monk atm, and that is armor. Ideally you want 10% of your armor as resist for maximum effectiveness with little diminishing returns. On a barb this is easy, on a monk its next to impossible. Sure monks have dodge but dodge sucks, in fact if anyone from Blizzard happens to read this "F your dodge!". Maybe its because I have played to much WoW in my life, but I believe its better to mitigate all incoming damage to a reasonable level so you can properly heal through it then play with the rng of dodge where one min you might take nothing then with bad rng take 3-4 huge hits in a second or 2 and die. This coupled with LS is barbs biggest advantage by far atm and allows them so sit in massive amounts of damage while heaing through it, I would love a rune that give you armor = to the amount of dex you have, but at a 50-75% decrease of dodge (haven't done any math on this yet).

Anyways that finishes my rant for the moment

Edited by Adhal, 02 December 2012 - 05:45 AM.

[Adhal]

hiro_za, on 28 November 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

Well - good points all - but I can't help but notice you're not actually disagreeing with Mortac's dps and ehp summary there Rhye. I've had a look at your monk and you can't argue that you must have spent a ton of gold on that gear There are VERY VERY few monks doing 200k dps... whereas there are many barbs that easily do that and more.

Ok I have to stop you right there, a 200k barb is just as expensive as 200k monk, more people just play barb because there is the whole sheep syndrome going around Diablo.  Another thing your not considering is while Rhyes paper DPS shows 239k, with MoC that is really around 350ish dps, and again thats only paper dps not effective dps. and im not sure if thats a snap shot with  all the other dps increase talents monk has so it may even be more.

P.S. Rhye can I touch your gear? lol

Edited by Adhal, 02 December 2012 - 05:57 AM.

[Adhal]

MONK_P100, on 29 November 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

TR the most efficient?

Who is the first character reaching paragon 100?

Among the first 100 paragon characters, there are how many monks and how many barbs?

Nothing needs to be changed, and I accept the challenge and fun playing monk as it is.

.... who was the first hardcore char to hit paragon 100? mage

Does that make them the best farming class? No

Bad point on your part. Also first paragon 100 was pre-MP, when inferno was equivalent to  Mp3-4 and less legendaries dropped, making TR much, much more expensive to get started. MP0-1 and mass legendaries evened the gap

Edited by Adhal, 02 December 2012 - 06:08 AM.

[Ezkaton]

Rhye, on 28 November 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

Mortac, on 28 November 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

Yes, monks are definitely more demanding to play. Barbarians more or less jump right in there and hack their way through. With Leap, you can just go wherever you want on the screen at almost any time, while monks can get stuck between mobs getting arcane enchanted or desecrated to death or what have you. Spirit management is also definitely more tricky than handling fury, and you have to maintain Sweeping Wind + the 3s duration mantra buff, and use your attacks while doing it. Keeping a permanent WotB isn't ever tricky because all you need to do is to hit things. The rest is taken care of passively.

Barbs don't even need life steal. 3% Life steal is reduced to, what is it, 0.6% if I remember correctly? Now put up Rend instead, and you'll leech 9% out of 700% of your weapon damage on each mob it hits. Suddenly life steal on your equipment becomes almost pointless. You'll zoom to full and pretty much stay there. A monk on the other hand has absolutely no way to recover health in this manner. They have to rely on LoH and LS on their equipment (which reduces their item budget for DPS and other survivability boosts even further), and then get in there and actually hit things or they're screwed. Rend heals you to full and lets you forget about surviving for its duration. Not to mention it just keeps getting better and better by a huge margin as your DPS increases.

Again, I'd also like to point out how crappy dodge is in this game compared to armor, because you will repeatedly take spike damage due to RNG and die, where with armor you can anticipate the damage much easier and adjust, without having to deal with the spikes that kill you. You may say monks have higher resistances, but that's hardly true. Barbarians can focus more of their item budget on resist all, while they have easier access to resist all on the IK set to begin with. Now, barbarians using War Cry with Impunity is a direct armor increase by 25% and resist increase by 20% iirc, without having to obtain specific one-resist gear or use a passive for it. It's an enormous increase to steady incoming damage compared to some spiky dodge that will kill you whenever the RNG feels like it.

Ok, stop. Barbs have leap. We have Serenity. Moot point.

Barbs can regain life with Rend. We can regen much faster with Breath of Heaven, life steal/LoH (faster attacks) and we can go immune for a few sec with seven sided strike (immune to dmg, gaining tons of life, saving us from death) AND we can use inner Sanctuary or Dashing Strike. Again, there are alternatives for monks. Stop crying.

Show me a good spec with Inner Sanctuary or Dashing Strike, please. That efficient so I can farm at least mp5-7 with 120k.

[gallaghd]

Hello all, hope you are all living long and killing quickly!

Been playing monk since it came out....happy but not impressed. I am not quite sure how the monk really compares to barb because i have not personally played one yet but the comments above make strong cases either way. I like the idea of allowing monks to obtain life steal on belt that would be so damn great!!! Also, most of the skills the monk have are useless to me. They are good to look at on paper but in the field of battle don't carry over very well. Will be interested to see what blizz has in mind since they commented "monk is not in a good spot right now." By the time they make changes i will probably be paragon 100 and who knows where my interest will carry me from there.

I still do not know why they nerfed STI to 50%...why 50% and not 80%???

Currently, I can clear modified alkeizer runs (I add keep 3 and rakkis crossing) at mp 6 between 35-40min. Inefficient or efficient who cares i am at paragon 60 and in less than 500 hours. I personally like to push my character to the max when i play and that is currently mp 6/7. It's more fun for me this way and makes game play more engaging than just running through and not putting forth much thought.

Unbuff: I am 127kdps, 781 res, 6200 armor, 46 dodge, 50.5 CC, 468 CD, 2.04 AS

I can tank most elite packs at mp6-7. However, struggle with champs (yellows) affixed with molten and reflect damage or both (ahh). Fire chains/plague/and believe it or not desecrator don't bother me like molten and reflect damage. Also, vortex and arcane can be really tricky. but then again we have our ohh shit button but if it happens to be "refreshing" uhh oh.

Surprisingly, I have recently switched to MoE/backlash (very underrated) and Resolve (20% reduction in damage) which have really helped out. I don't have a huge dps build so the extra dodge and 70% weapon damage per dodge is actually really helpful and has surprised the hell out of me....try it out for a couple of days you may just use it permanently.

Anyways, changes are inevitable by blizz just a matter of time.




us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Imperium-1547/

Edited by gallaghd, 03 December 2012 - 01:48 AM.

[maka]

You can easily post your profile by removing the 'http://' part.

Like this: eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Maka-2582/
The system doesn't recognise it as an address.

[MONK_P100]

Adhal, on 02 December 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

MONK_P100, on 29 November 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

TR the most efficient?

Who is the first character reaching paragon 100?

Among the first 100 paragon characters, there are how many monks and how many barbs?

Nothing needs to be changed, and I accept the challenge and fun playing monk as it is.

.... who was the first hardcore char to hit paragon 100? mage

Does that make them the best farming class? No

Bad point on your part. Also first paragon 100 was pre-MP, when inferno was equivalent to  Mp3-4 and less legendaries dropped, making TR much, much more expensive to get started. MP0-1 and mass legendaries evened the gap

I don't know why you had to bring up hardcore, which is another very long story and monk will not be better either.

No match in softcore farming efficiency between TR monk and WW bard pre 1.0.5.

1.0.5 TR monk can narrow down the gap between WW barb farming at low MP levels, but not more efficient to reverse the situation at least in terms of gear set up in speed and spirit.

[MONK_P100]

Unbuff: I am 127kdps, 781 res, 6200 armor, 46 dodge, 50.5 CC, 468 CD, 2.04 AS

Surprisingly, I have recently switched to MoE/backlash (very underrated) and Resolve (20% reduction in damage) which have really helped out. I don't have a huge dps build so the extra dodge and 70% weapon damage per dodge is actually really helpful and has surprised the hell out of me....try it out for a couple of days you may just use it permanently.

Your monk is relatively high in defense. Depends on your leech, you can use MoE for more defense.

Giving up MoC losses a lot of DPS, and it takes ages to bring down the elites in high MP levels even with 127k DPS.

Why many monk skills needs lot of spirit accompanied with a cool down, whereas no cool down in rend and hammer for barb?

Monk will be stronger and more fun to play with a dynamic switch between MoC and MoE.

[djxput]

hiro_za, on 27 November 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

I do love playing a monk. Let me start by first saying this. But (and please correct me if you feel I'm wrong), they're not a patch on Barbs. When you start out as a monk everything is great. You can get the highest resists in the game with OWE, and you're doing decent dps. you've probably also got LOH on weps so you're pretty much unkillable. What a great char...

The second you hit 100k dps things change. Everything that was cool about a monk is pretty much gone. Your LOH is gone from your weps in favour of LS - because LOH weps have relatively low dps and your sockets have shifted from purple to green in any event. Barbs can get LS on belts - so you're already down to a measly 3% vs the Barb 6% if you've managed to get a decent 3% LS OH. you can try scrounge some LOH on rings...but best case scenario you're looking at 500 LOH.

Resists? you're lucky if 3 or 4 of your items have double resists. Compare Immortal King set to Inna. 80 RA is pretty much standard on IK gear. How many monks have the cash to cough for 80 RA Innas?

you will spend a truck of gold on getting a 100k monk. a truck. Getting a 100k barb is easy. you cant tell me that a Skorn bearing ww barb doing ridiculous dps doesn't irritate you. And if that Skorn happens to have LOH on it that barb with his/her 6% LS is going to be pretty much unstoppable. And of course ww means that the slow proc of the Skorn is ignored. How nice. Because all their skills focus on improving dps, they can afford a resists shout - so their resists are actually higher than monks... We've given up with the RA shout by this time and we're using overawe.

so we're more squishy with a lot less dps than a barb. OWE just doesn't happen because no monk set items have double resists. Well not ones that can be bought for realistic sums at any rate.

Barbs are 10x cheaper, do more dps and are tougher. And with that ridiculous farting ww nonsense they run 2x faster so can farm much more efficiently. sure, a belt with LS for a monk might help... but short of that what's the solution? high dps used to work for tearing up elites before they could damage you. This doesn't work with high MP. I know a lot of barbs that can handle mp8+. I don't know any monks that can survive at that skill.

Please....correct me if I'm wrong. If I've built a rubbish monk then please, show me the error of my ways.

Here's my monk Whistle. I'd love to be corrected on this. As tanks, monks SHOULD be equal to barbs. I've seen so many 20k dps monk tanks that I HAVE to wonder how they aren't pulling their hair out at mp5+. Do you drink your coffee while you kill something??

RA 800, LS 6%, DPS 150k. This is easy for a barb. How do we do it?

I dont know about softcore  but in HC its complete opposite of what you said - barb gear 3x more expensive then monks, so very few monks.

[Huminator]

TR Monk MP0: 120m xp /hour recordet at.
sprint(marathon)/leap/charge MP0: 110M xp/hour.
ww barbs mp1-3: 80m xp /hour
WD Acid zerg mp0-1: 80m xp /hour
Wizards: A 80m xp /hour build and run have been seen.

All the above numbers has been recorded and SEEN. So stop saying monks are in a bad position.. They are currently the class who can farm xp quickest. And loot follow the xp.

[Vulmio]

Huminator, on 03 December 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

TR Monk MP0: 120m xp /hour recordet at.
sprint(marathon)/leap/charge MP0: 110M xp/hour.
ww barbs mp1-3: 80m xp /hour
WD Acid zerg mp0-1: 80m xp /hour
Wizards: A 80m xp /hour build and run have been seen.

All the above numbers has been recorded and SEEN. So stop saying monks are in a bad position.. They are currently the class who can farm xp quickest. And loot follow the xp.

Yes, Monks are the best as long as the ennemies have no life and deal no damage

[Huminator]

Vulmio, on 03 December 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

Huminator, on 03 December 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

TR Monk MP0: 120m xp /hour recordet at.
sprint(marathon)/leap/charge MP0: 110M xp/hour.
ww barbs mp1-3: 80m xp /hour
WD Acid zerg mp0-1: 80m xp /hour
Wizards: A 80m xp /hour build and run have been seen.

All the above numbers has been recorded and SEEN. So stop saying monks are in a bad position.. They are currently the class who can farm xp quickest. And loot follow the xp.

Yes, Monks are the best as long as the ennemies have no life and deal no damage

Which they dont have on mp0, enabling the fastest farm currently ingame.

[hiro_za]

@adhal - great insights man - thanks. I actually agree with your points about dps - and to be honest I didn't actually know that MoC-OA applied to whole party. That's pretty sexy. I don't actually mind who does the most dps to be honest... Hell give it to the WDs - they seem to get the skin slapped off them most of the time. I guess my main gripe - and it seems a lot of people have picked up on this - is that you just can't get close to the LS of a barb. I guess this irritates me because I've changed from a 3500 LOH build to trying to get high dps and LS in order to farm. monks simply cannot stand up to the abuse that barbs can take. not even close. you need about 3000 life per hit to be able to stand in the shit. with 80% damage reduction in inferno on monsters... it's pretty dismal trying to achieve this on 3% LS. Yes. I'd love to get that 3% LS echoing fury.... but at close to a billion gold this is just crazy street... I totally don't want to see barbs nerfed - they're a great class - and when they're built right they're awesome to watch. Monks should be too.... but I just feel something lacking there... they just aren't tough enough...

[Doriq]

Don't wanna sound or look like a dick but 90% of the people that are whining about Monks being "bad" or anything similar are just undergeared as hell.

My friends and i run a group of DH/Monk/Barb(myself) for ubers and mostly mp10 key farms and i can safely say that the monk in our group even if at some point i ended up with 30k more paper DPS than his is doingt equal if not higher effecting DPS than the other two people grouped with him and we're all pretty good geared (at least in my opinion).

If you want your monk to shine (and basicly ANY class needs that) spend some time on gearing him by farming or AH Sniping and then come and talk about monks being "bad".

It just hurts my eyes to see the amount of ignorance most people playing Monk have regarding their own character capability.

EDIT : Typos.

Edited by Doriq, 03 December 2012 - 11:06 AM.

[hiro_za]

@doriq: would you say that of my monk as well? I'm totally open to where you think I could become less squishy... while still keeping dps... could you also post a link to the monk you're talking about?

Edited by hiro_za, 03 December 2012 - 01:25 PM.

[MONK_P100]

We didn't say monks are useless, but barbs are generally tougher and more efficient especially with low-end gears.

Even with a single target of ubers, barb is still better than monk as there is no cool down for the powerful hammer.

[Richtko]

hiro_za, on 03 December 2012 - 01:20 PM, said:

@doriq: would you say that of my monk as well? I'm totally open to where you think I could become less squishy... while still keeping dps... could you also post a link to the monk you're talking about?

Yes your under geared. you have some decent gear but then you have some very subpar gear also, but more importantly your seemingly just stacking dps stats instead of creating a gear set that works together, your itemization is broken. But then I came here looking for monk build ideas so what do I know.

As for the barb vs everyone else argument that continues perpetually. First Barbs are deceptively OP at low gear levels because the mechanics of ww work even with crap gear, but just because it works doesn't mean it's good. Which It usually isnt unless the player really knows how to itemize and snipe gear at decent prices. Those barbs you see running around in constant wotb in pub games are almost always under geared and doing very little damage, if they weren't they'd be fury starved lagging behind the pack. 

Edited by Richtko, 04 December 2012 - 06:02 AM.

[Richtko]

Zrana, on 28 November 2012 - 03:09 AM, said:

ARRRgh you people are retarded

You do realise that MP 0-1 is the best for farming right?
Complaining that a barb does better than monks on mp3+ is just pointless. You never, ever want to run that monster power except for farming keys or doing ubers.

While you may be partially correct and that's one of the reasons I'm rolling a monk at the moment, for my barb mp4 is the most efficient. Anything less and I'm stuttering around fury starved and anything more and mobs don't 1-2 shot or outlive nado's. I've timed runs on each mp lvl up to 8 and mp4 is the fastest for me.

[MONK_P100]

Hey, his gear is better than many average monks, and will be doing fine in low Mp farming; maybe a bit more leech and HP for higher MP levels. One or two pieces sub-par gear is not a disaster unless you go for the ranking.

"it works doesn't mean its good", in what way it is not good, able to farm with low-end gear and getting better with high-end gear?

It works always and it is good too just a little bit less so in 1.0.5.