12 replies to this topic

[Küken]

Hey.

There are several different ways to show bonuses to mindmg and maxdmg on items, probably based on which affixes provide them. Also, there are some discrepancies in numbers, which make me wonder:

How exactly do bonuses to min- and maxdmg work?

For example, if I search in the AH for 30+ avg dmg, occasionally an item with only 16 min dmg will pop up. Is this just the search screwing up, or will 16 min dmg really provide more than 30 damage in average somehow?

Also, the tooltip of a ruby states, it provides 14-28 bonus damage, but after socketing, it provides 14 mindmg and 14 maxdmg. This seem to suggest, that +mindmg simply adds the damage to your weapon damage, instead of just raising the lower damage cap and leave the maxdmg unaffected, while the maxdmg only affects the upper damage cap, making mindmg twice as effective. Is this the case?

So, lets say, one ring provides 10 mindmg. Another one provides 10 maxdmg. A third one provides 10 mindmg and 10 maxdmg. And a last one provides 10-10 dmg (theoretically, I doubt, this is possible). How would these rings affect your weapon damage?

[kebapmanager]

I wonder the same thing , since that little stat acn give soo much dps ,and I wanted to know this ebfore spending milions tnx for starting thread before me !

[Drez]

I believe the average dmg filter is bugged for min dmg. Works fine for x-y dmg, not sure about maxdmg only, or mindmg and maxdmg both on the same item. anyway just divide the numbers by 2 and that's your average dmg unless you're using a weapon with like 10-11 dmg, cause then mindmg bumps up the maxdmg too before adding the maxdmg stat.

so 10-30 dmg = 20 average dmg = 24 weapondps with a 1,2 attackspeed weapon
10 mindmg = 5 average dmg = 4,5 weapondps with a 0,9 attackspeed weapon

[Bagstone]

Regarding the average damage being displayed in the AH: there's a bug that items can have "hidden damage" which is not being displayed in the tooltip, but you can see the real average damage when you put it in the AH and search for it. I thought this was fixed with one of the last patches, but it seems as if this was not the case (or maybe these are old items from before the patch). There are lots of threads on the official forums as well, search for hidden average damage.

To your question "how does min/max damage work"? It is rather simple and straightforward. If you remove any spell from your left mouse button spell slot, you can see the damage range like in good old Diablo 2 (e.g., 1300-2400). If you then equip a ring, this will get increased by the min/max damage values. What can cause confusions here is elemental damage. Here's an example: you have a weapon with 600-900 damage, of which 450-700 are fire damage, and you have a Stone of Jordan that adds 5% to arcane damage. The "+5% to elemental damage" are applied to physical damage only, in this case it's 150-200 damage plus 5% and then the 450-700 fire damage are added. Similarly, if you have a +10-20 damage ring, it is added to the base non-elemental weapon damage, then the SoJ bonus is applied, and then the elemental min/max damage is added. See a bluepost here about the elemental damage.

[Drez]

Bagstone, on 25 November 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

Regarding the average damage being displayed in the AH: there's a bug that items can have "hidden damage" which is not being displayed in the tooltip, but you can see the real average damage when you put it in the AH and search for it.

That sounds silly and it isn't true, based on what I've experienced. A ring with 20 min dmg appears in 20 average dmg searches, but if you actually equip it, it equals 10 average dmg only (which is kindof logical if you ask me)

Unless the hidden dmg is so hidden that it isn't included in my displayed DPS either, cause I didn't actually go and test ingame hit numbers, just calculated what my DPS should be, but the displayed DPS was exactly the number i got by accounting 20 mindmg as 10 average dmg.

Edited by Drez, 25 November 2012 - 10:26 AM.

[Küken]

If 20 mindmg mistakenly get searched as 20 avgdmg, that would make at least some kind of sense. However, as mentioned, even when searching for 30 avgdmg, the results contain items with less than 30 mindmg. Well, maybe they multiplied by 2 instead of dividing :/

Thanks for the information, so mindmg, maxdmg and x-y dmg should work exactly as you think it does, right? And what about the gem issue, where 14-28 damage apparently equals 14 mindmg + 14 maxdmg?

[Loroese]

Drez, on 25 November 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

Bagstone, on 25 November 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

Regarding the average damage being displayed in the AH: there's a bug that items can have "hidden damage" which is not being displayed in the tooltip, but you can see the real average damage when you put it in the AH and search for it.

That sounds silly and it isn't true, based on what I've experienced. A ring with 20 min dmg appears in 20 average dmg searches, but if you actually equip it, it equals 10 average dmg only (which is kindof logical if you ask me)

Unless the hidden dmg is so hidden that it isn't included in my displayed DPS either, cause I didn't actually go and test ingame hit numbers, just calculated what my DPS should be, but the displayed DPS was exactly the number i got by accounting 20 mindmg as 10 average dmg.

There are some items that do have hidden damage, like it will say 9-18 damage, but when you equip it it's more like 12-25 or 9-28 or something like that. The items aren't common but they've popped up a few times from people using my spreadsheet and noticing a different in game dps than calculated, and the difference was due to some integral value of bonus damage.

For AH searches, it seems like a bug or limitation in the coding of the average damage. The AH seems to take Average = (min+max)/2 but if min > max then it takes Average = (min+min)/2, even if there's no max damage that seems to be how it works, I think.

Edited by Loroese, 25 November 2012 - 09:25 PM.

[Temsen]

I think at some point min damage was supposed to increase max damage as well. That'd kinda explain the 14-14/14-28 ruby issue. Also, just assuming a 100-100 dmg weapon how would a min damage increase work? 109-100? That's.. silly.

About the search function, I remember reading a bluepost about that this is intentional. I actually found it, it's in the 1.0.4 notes!
https://us.battle.ne...ic/6369407745#1
"We've replaced “Minimum Damage” with “Average Damage” as a searchable stat, which can be calculated as follows: (Min Damage + Max Damage) / 2.  So, for example, searching for an Average Damage of 12 will find an item with 10-14 damage, 12 Minimum damage, or 24 Maximum damage."

So a ring with 16 min damage will show up until searching for more than 32 average damage.
Now I, too, have seen searches where say a 9-18 ring will show up in searches for 30+, I guess that's because that ring actually rolled two damage mods; a min one and x-x one. Or something similar and the min damage affix bumps up the search.

[gedo228]

+10 mindmg = "10 - 10" or 100-100 weapon => 110-110
+10 maxdmg = "0 - 10" or  100-100 weapon => 100-110
+10 mindmg and +10 maxdmg = "10-20"  or 100-100 weapon =>110-120
Average dmg = mindmg + 0.5*maxdmg

Mindmg is x2 better than maxdmg for average dmg at the same number.

[unReality]

gedo228, on 25 December 2012 - 10:30 PM, said:

+10 mindmg = "10 - 10" or 100-100 weapon => 110-110
+10 maxdmg = "0 - 10" or  100-100 weapon => 100-110
+10 mindmg and +10 maxdmg = "10-20"  or 100-100 weapon =>110-120
Average dmg = mindmg + 0.5*maxdmg

Mindmg is x2 better than maxdmg for average dmg at the same number.

Incorrect. Min damage is the same as Max damage. This is an issue on the AH where minimum damage comes up when searching for average damage.

Moldran showed it here:


I also tested it out myself by buying 3 different rings.

[Loroese]

unReality, on 25 December 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

Incorrect. Min damage is the same as Max damage. This is an issue on the AH where minimum damage comes up when searching for average damage.

I also tested it out myself by buying 3 different rings.

Agreed, all my spreadsheet testing has concluded that min damage only adds min damage. The exception is if that causes your min damage to exceed your max damage, then your max will equal your min, so you gain extra damage from +min damage in that case. I also suspect that is why min damage shows up as equal to average damage in he AH, because there's no max damage to average it with, so it sets max = min, then computes average as (min+max)/2, which ends up being (min+min)/2 = min. I said something similar above.

[LordPoekel]

unReality, on 25 December 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

Incorrect. Min damage is the same as Max damage. This is an issue on the AH where minimum damage comes up when searching for average damage.

Well, Min damage is actually better than Max damage if you are doing MP0-1 speed runs. In these cases you will want to 1 shot as many monsters as possible. Usually your Max damage will be a lot higher than needed (except for Elites) so added Max damage is not that beneficial as added Min damage (basically you could look at the maximum HP for each monster type and then calculate your Minimum damage to see if you 1 shot the majority of mobs; for an Alkaizer runs important monster max HP/min damage thresholds should be around 60k, 75k. 112k, 150k, 225k and 335k).

Regarding the AH you got 2 different things:
Min damage > Max damage (Min damage only applies here as well): Min damage will be shown as Average damage.

MinMax damage + Min damage: Min damage will not be shown on the tooltip. E. g.: Ring with 10-20 Damage and 8 Minimum damage. The tooltip will show 10-20 damage, AH will show 19 Average damage. If Min damage is above Max damage AH will show Min damage instead of average damage though: 10-20 damage, 16 Min damage: AH will show 26 average damage although the actuall damage is 23.

Additional Maxdamage is shown correctly on the tooltip though: Ring with 10-20 damage, 16 maxdamage and 16 mindamage (26-36 damage) will show as 10-36 damage on the tooltip and 31 average damage in AH search.

If you quickly want to know if a ring/amulet got added mindamage, just search for similar items in the AH. It will automatically put in the AH average damage values in the search field (so you can derive added Mindamage (in some cases -1 as uneven numbers are rounded up))

[TheDemokin]

Min damage is added twice for the weapons. For example if you see a weapon that has

10-20 base damage
30-60 damage added
The final weapon damage is going to be (10+30) to (20+30+60)

The same rule doesn't seem to be working for rings / amulets with average damage added, hence the confusion. The rings / amulets damage is added as Moldran pointed out in the video.

This is probably where Blizz screwed up the math for the filter