221 replies to this topic

[Morkai]

Huminator, on 28 November 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

What im trying to say Morkai. Is thats its all about "damage per CAST" not "damage per second"

All good huminator I don't take offense to what your saying and I understand... Call me stupid but allow me the insight.  Correct me if I'm wrong but what's better given my gear...

Loose 10% cc, 4%elite, damage 76-389, and over 200 int (even with a high rolled skorn on int)

What ur missing is that with the 1h mojo I am able to scale up much higher fully buffed... I can run mp 2 as fast as mp 0... As my dps hits over 450 with an average of 360... So I ask and call me stupid what's better loose the dps from the mojo and 1h setup by 100 unbuffed and more scaled to pick up skorn... Or keep the setup scale more buffed and then cast, run cast run and still 1 shot mobs... Hmmm fire bomb ghost bomb still 1shots mobs but for arguments sake using acid rain with my gear, would I not be able to do way more damage because I'm over 200k scaled dps then using a skorn.... And isn't paragon farming about para xp per hour so... Damage per second or hour... You see where I'm going... If your right by all means show me.  Give me a name of a decent video stream program and I'll happily film me 1 shot cast run cast mobs... = ).

[Huminator]

The best way you can personal find out is trying out both. Do your route in your current setup, calculate your xp gain per hour. And then do the exact same on lets say mp0 or 1 with a decent skorn. Again calculate your xp gained per hour. And wolla, you start to get a picture each way and which perform better than the other.

[Emberos]

KyKaH, on 28 November 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

Lower mp's farming effectivenes is another common misconception (as well as Alkazier route). I probably agree that it would be more benefitial for barbs or monks, but still doubt that - just don't have much experience with those classes. Also it would be more benefical for budget or low dps characters. Farming higher mp's with WD can be way more effective in fact, with your dps you could do say mp5 with better results but different build and route, not sure about your gear

As for others not publishing their videos - they don't have to, but you did it so you have to take consequenses. The "post yours" approach should not be applied here really. Another reason for people not publishing a lot of videos cause game got easier and there are a lot of ways to build your char as opposed to pre-1.0.4, others just don't want a competition - publishing a really effective setups can result in gear pricing increase.

@KyKaH:

I like it -- Let me paraphrase:

"my way is better -- yes, everyone else has tried higher MPs with very good DPS gear and found this not to be true -- especially since WDs specifically scale better when we one shot things -- but my way  is better -- no I am not giving any details on my way and let me pre-emptive strike your request to prove it by saying people don't post videos for these silly reasons -- but trust me, my way is better"


@Morkai:

as Huminator said, it's not about char sheet dps which is very misleading when it comes to low MP farming.  You *may* be able to complete a run just as fast or faster with a 1h/oh as I do with my 2h -- Projaxs surely has shown footage where he does -- but don't be surprised if someone with lower char sheet dps is able to be as or even more effective than you are in a speed run with a 2h.

It's fairly simple though for you to test -- just do a run at whatever MP you feel you are performing best at and see if you can average >70 mil xp/hr.  I would suggest MP0 but if you feel you can do better at a higher MP, try that.  I think you'll begin to see the issue and why, though char sheet dps certainly can start to matter at higher MPs when we are delivering sustained dps, it matters far, far less when doing low MP farming.  And despite KyKaH saying high MPs are faster, I've yet to see anyone prove that and certainly many of us on these boards (some that are Paragon 100 already) have found it not to be true.

Edited by Emberos, 28 November 2012 - 01:56 PM.

[Huminator]

People wan't to think doing high mp farming is worth it. They are willing to fool themself to think its better. To justify them doing it. But facts are, thats just not how blizzard designet it. We can disagree as much as we want with the way blizzard designet the paragon levels and its bonuses. But it wont change the way it works now. You can basicly say, for each paragon level where you dont 1 shot everything instant, you receive a penalty in loot and exp. High MP are only useble for 3 things. Fun/Challenge. Key runs and ubber boss runs.

Farming the higher MP for exp and loot is counter productive.

[KyKaH]

Emberos, on 28 November 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

@KyKaH:

I like it -- Let me paraphrase:

"my way is better -- yes, everyone else has tried higher MPs with very good DPS gear and found this not to be true -- especially since WDs specifically scale better when we one shot things -- but my way  is better -- no I am not giving any details on my way and let me pre-emptive strike your request to prove it by saying people don't post videos for these silly reasons -- but trust me, my way is better"

You've got a good imagination, but please don't apply your fantasies to my posts. And than you're reffering to  "everyone" I suggest you change it to "everyone I know" or everyone "I believe" or "majority of the people". And I did not even say about "my method" or anything like that, if you don't understand my post just ignore it, please.

Probably low mp farming is good and effective for "majority", I won't argue with that. It is as simple as thinking that earth is flat because it looks so. As far as it has very large radius you can say it's approximately flat if you look at 100 meters distance. So if farming higher mp is counter productive for majority of the players it does not mean it's counter productive for "everyone". You just find your way to play and enjoy it.

Sexton, all I can tell you farming mp5 for me is 3 times more effective than mp1, I see your experience is different, that just means we have different playstyle and nothing more. My point was not to educate on how to play the game, but that someone's experience can be limited to make generalizations about the way to farm or how to build a WD. So those debates "1h vs 2h" "IAS is paper DPS" "Low MP is better" really do not make any sence, because they do not apply to everybody and misleading in general.

Edited by KyKaH, 28 November 2012 - 05:10 PM.

[Tuna9719]

Here we see yet another person who claims his way is better without giving out his spec, gear, mp lvl he plays at, or farming route. Your analogy in regards to a flat earth is ridiculous because all the math points to a round earth just like all the math points to lower mps for the most exp/hour. If its possible to be more efficient on higher mps please post the spec, necessary gear, farming route, and the exp/hour that is easily obtainable (>80mill/hour to be better) with this setup. Even if you don't wanna make a video I'm sure there are more than enough readers here that at least 1 person will do so for you. If you can do this I will apologize and thank you for contributing to the WD community.

[maka]

Huminator, on 28 November 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

What im trying to say Morkai. Is thats its all about "damage per CAST" not "damage per second"

FINALLY, someone says it. DPS is almost meaningless for this type of build.

[Projaxs]

@
KyKaH



leave ur battletag here pls . I want to see ur gear and your paragon level

[Emberos]

your request is reasonable Projaxs but he can't do that because then people would see his super-awesome gear/spec and the price would go up.

seriously though, RyKaH -- if you make a claim that is contrary to established knowledge and expect it to be believed, support it with something.

[KyKaH]

Tuna9719, on 28 November 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

Here we see yet another person who claims his way is better

Apparently you can't read well too... Sorry, not going to argue with you, especially about math. Secondly I do not own a video, contribution or even explanation of my gear and a setup neighter I need your apology, I was not even talking about my setup being good or bad. I'm just amazed that people can't calmly support the conversation and take different opinions as personal insult, I guess I should not even write here.

Projax, my profile is here KyKaH#2425 you can look at it if you like, the setup and gear shown on it is for mp8 ubers, but it's not very different from mp5 farming setup

Edit:

HaHa, Emberos you're funny guy, did not see your comment. I don't have to prove anything, really. I'm just sharing my experience, not my fault you took it personal. I probably could even record a video, but I guess you'll find something else you dislike )

Edited by KyKaH, 28 November 2012 - 05:48 PM.

[maxes21]

I like the way you think sir.

[datajunkee]

KyKaH, on 28 November 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

I'm just amazed that people can't calmly support the conversation and take different opinions as personal insult, I guess I should not even write here.

I think this is one of the most important things said in this thread.  It isn't important that we all think the same, in fact if we did then we would never discover new builds or ways to play our class.  The number of people contributing to the WD discussion is small so it would be great if we could actually have constructive discussions that don't dissuade people from participating.

[Emberos]

http://us.battle.net...5/hero/14474364

lmao

deck the thread with boughs and folly, troll lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

[Huminator]

KyKaH. If you do 3 times more xp per hour on mp5, than you do on mp1. I have some serious doubt, that your would even be near 50m xp /hour.

Going over your gear and spec, its very unlikely that you are even near 50m xp/hour. Your even missing out 50% of the mobility skills a witch doctor have. Your not even using grave injustice which is together with spirit walk the key to fast farming. Your skill and passive choices are truely horrible.

Your the biggest troll in town.

EDIT: For you emberos http://eu.battle.net...25/hero/5884584 - you linked the wrong profile xD

Edited by Huminator, 28 November 2012 - 06:10 PM.

[Emberos]

  I liked my Armory better -- it was a lot funnier that way -- it almost made more sense too.

Anyway, re-reading the initial post KyKaH, perhaps I was too dismissive in my first response.  That said, what you are saying is contrary to a lot of work that has been done and isn't likely to be believed without some amount of proof.  Also, now that you've provided a real armory (my US one was an honest mistake as you didn't specify EU), it's evident there isn't really any way you are farming MP anything faster and more efficiently than what has been shown and documented in this thread.

Edited by Emberos, 28 November 2012 - 06:24 PM.

[Tuna9719]

I believe it to be a simple misunderstanding on the definition of efficient. While some take it to mean the most exp/hour, KyKah believes it to mean what is the most fun for him. This is completely fine, I'm not going to shit on anyone for that and I don't believe anyone else here will either.

Edited by Tuna9719, 28 November 2012 - 06:34 PM.

[KyKaH]

Well, first of all, about mobility - nice comment, but irrelevant to be said about ubers mp8, I noted that in my post. Secondly, if use this spec on mp0-mp1 it would be really counterproductive as you say. About horrible skill choice - well it helps me to kill elites on mp5 within 5-14 seconds, so maybe they are horrible, but they work fine. Also this setup with small alterations can solo ubers on any mp including mp10. To be honest, I don't count how many xp per hour I get, but if calculate it would be just about 50-60 mln/hour considering my playtime since mp levels were introduced, but I farm for loot not for exp, and I get 3 times more loot on mp5 as on mp1 during the same period of time.  I don't use GI - consider it useless on my route and setup, it really does not contribute much, it probably could save me minute or two of a runtime, but it does does not worth it, just a waste of passive for me, but I can understand people use it for Alkaizer run. Anyway if you don't like don't use it, I'm not advertizing here ))
Tuna9719, you quite right too, that counts. I have fun to have a little challenge and in finding loot - so it makes sence for me as well to do mp5 cause it gives me more fun and loot than mp1.

Edited by KyKaH, 28 November 2012 - 06:44 PM.

[Emberos]

KyKaH, on 28 November 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

To be honest, I don't count how many xp per hour I get, but if calculate it would be just about 50-60 mln/hour considering my playtime since mp levels were introduced, but I farm for loot not for exp, and I get 3 times more loot on mp5 as on mp1 during the same period of time.

First, if you like your route and the game play it offers, more power to you.  That said, I think we just established the disconnect in your first sentence above -- you don't calculate how much xp/hr you get and are working off "it feels like it's fast." I just about guarantee you if you note your starting XP at the beginning of a run, set a stopwatch (use your phone or whatever) when you start, and then note your end XP and time when you are done -- you will not be getting anywhere near 50-60 mil xp/hr with your current gear and spec setup on MP5.

Now, figuring drops would be a harder thing to track, but alot of work has been done here too and the number of creatures you can kill at lower MPs just outscales the additional magic find granted at higher MPs.  This one is more open to discussion as it's a bit more nebulous than a straight XP math problem, but it's very, very unlikely in your current gear/setup that you are getting more items/hr either.

[Huminator]

KyKaH, on 28 November 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

I don't count how many xp per hour I get, but if calculate it would be just about 50-60 mln/hour considering my playtime since mp levels were introduced, but I farm for loot not for exp, and I get 3 times more loot on mp5 as on mp1 during the same period of time.

Bullshit my friend. XP gain defines your efficiency as its based on number of mobs killed. So when your getting up to 20 million LESS xp per hour. That also means you kill a TON mobs less. The bonuses you gain from playing MP5, are not big enough to make up for the TONS less mobs you kill.

Therefor XP and LOOT is the same package. Getting 50-60mill xp per hour also means your getting less loot. I dont know where you get your numbers. But its plain direct lie.

As i said in an earlier post. People are willing to mislead themself, to justify playing on the higher MP levels. This is yet another excellent example of exactly that. When your saying you get more loot on mp5 with 50 mill xp per hour, compared to when a person running 70 mill xp per hour on MP1. Is BULLSHIT.

If you had said you prefer to run mp5 because its more FUN, or you enjoy the CHALLENGE. Then you would be completely correct in your statement. But when you say you get more loot your lying. And lying gets you absolutely nowhere.

Edited by Huminator, 28 November 2012 - 06:56 PM.

[KyKaH]

Emberos, on 28 November 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

  This one is more open to discussion as it's a bit more nebulous than a straight XP math problem, but it's very, very unlikely in your current gear/setup that you are getting more items/hr either.

Well, I still one or two shot mobs, cast fast, and kill elites fast, how that is unlikely to get more loot on mp5 than on mp1 if mp5 just has more loot? It also has more exp% and more MF, so I don't see a math problem here.

Huminator, whatever you like it or not I just get more loot, that's it, sorry if it ruins something for ya ))

Edited by KyKaH, 28 November 2012 - 06:57 PM.