221 replies to this topic

[Tuna9719]

Huminator, on 27 November 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

1 cast with a two hander or 2 cast with a one hander.. Tough one.

If that's all you got from my post, I sincerely feel sorry for you.

[Projaxs]

Great arguments on both sides here. I am realy happy that wd comunity is growing and you only proof that there is alot of testing before us to reach something like - ww build

But what I know - I would recommand all wds with low budget - to go onehander + mojo cause its alot of cheaper.

and for higher budget 500 mil and more - to go for skorn with IAS + pickup radius.  To balance IAS , crit and crit dmg will be realy hard task to deal with anyway. Cause it needs to be somehow in balance to actual reach the optimal dps.

Anyway - I need to reach 100 to start making some theorycraft about higher MPs builds because its seems that blizzard will propably update somehow (upgrade) reward system (rewards itself) for going higher mps. Because if not - the game will be in the deadend.


So for higher mps im propably gonna start with Spirit barage manaregen burst - to spam some crazy nukes (maybe combined with dots and kiting) - what u think?

[Huminator]

Tuna9719, on 27 November 2012 - 06:10 PM, said:

Huminator, on 27 November 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

1 cast with a two hander or 2 cast with a one hander.. Tough one.

If that's all you got from my post, I sincerely feel sorry for you.

About your post? It has nothing to do with your post, i fear you think to good of yourself.

Its a common fact that 1 cast with a two hander always will be a better option than 2 casts with a one hander. Aswell as its a fact that IAS doesnt give anything worth to mention when your stutter step cast. timed 3 runs with each setup. 3 with a skorn and 3 with a one hander  + source. And the conclution was the obvious. Time wise it was pretty much the same within seconds. However with skorn i wouldnt encounter annoying mana issues, as i did here and there with the one hander. So its a personel preference.

Edited by Huminator, 27 November 2012 - 09:09 PM.

[Sodee]

In all honesty, this video could have been reduced to about 8 minutes. If you're looking for criticism, here it is: make a script for your videos and stick to it. Your super awkward 35-45 second introduction at the start where you fumble to realize what day it actually is and talk about your paragon symbol? That has no relevance to the video you are trying to create. Also the whole "ship" and "shit" thing, really?

I don't really understand how this video made the front page of this site, because honestly... you're playing softcore. The amount of gear for a low price that you have access to is insane, but you're playing a safe spec. I play hardcore and the spec I run is more dangerous than that, as well as more efficient. I'm not saying your spec isn't good, it seems nice... but it's far from the most efficient paragon farming spec out there. You have 95k dps with Hellfire Ring, Cains set and a Radiant Ruby: that's 96% increased xp gain. You have 25k more unbuffed dps than my hardcore Witch Doctor and you run drastically slower.

I know it seems like I'm shitting on your video, but I feel like your aspiration to "get bigger" is more important to you than actually releasing amazing content. You also kind of shit on streamers, saying that "I'm going to start streaming so there are good streamers out there", continuing to talk about how a specific streamer out there needs more knowledge about Witch Doctor, when you're clearly   thinking higher of yourself than is reflected in this video.

Fix these things and you may do well:

Get a script
Stay on point
Don't spend a portion of your video shitting on the community, it makes you look like a douchebag.

I'm actually kind of sad that Diabofans highlighted this type of thing.

[Projaxs]

ok

1st im not shitting comunity or streamers. I just didnt find anybody interesting so far - except turknukem.
hardcore is bit different ive seen now some of ur videos and I realy didnt get how can be your build more dangerous and even more efficient.

2nd I did not wanted to be posted on the frontpage - im not doing this to get famous but to help wd comunity grow. untill i was on frontpage my feedback was more then positive. unfortunately they post it on the frontpage and thats the time when haters showed up.

I cant to anything about haters and I dont give a damn thing about it. But for all who reads this and wonder.

This guide is for those who seeks help - for those who actualy dont know much about wd or just want some tips how to farm. If u think your build is better or ur gameplay is better then reply in this topic and share you ideas.

Dont waste ur time with hating. Anyway thanks for feedback about my videos. IM doing for 2-3 months and i know im not perfect and im trying to improve that. in maybe another 2 months ill be better in that.

when you say barbarian - you just come with names like Moldran, Kripp or kongor. when u say wd - you might come up with name turk nuken.

Once i realized that wd is great class and it should get more player base.. then I started making videos.

Edited by Projaxs, 28 November 2012 - 04:05 AM.

[TheDemokin]

Goodness, seriously?

To clear this up for everyone that still isn't getting it:

The argument was that: CD & CC play a role in farming efficiency while AIS has no result on farming efficiency whatsoever.

This is the point i utterly disagree with, this is not about being stubborn, this is simple logic and math, to make things truly complex to cover various scenarios:


The character could only have 2 states - moving or standing still casting. AIS clearly does affect the amount of time it takes to make a cast and move off after it - there is no argument about it, the difference might be barely noticeable on a single cast, however in a single game where you have to make, for example 500 casts to clear a run - even a 0.1 second difference adds up to a total of 50 seconds difference.
Reducing time required to clear a run via increase in AIS -> reduced time spent casting leads to an increase in XP/hour earned.

None of this is debatable, simple dependencies and facts.

Scenario 1:
Assumption to be made - you are one shotting things, all the time (with non-crit casts, 1 hander & 2 hander)

To make it clear in the worth of the 3 stats:
CC = has no effect on the farming efficiency because you are already one shotting things all the time with normal hits (it has minimal effect by perhaps reducing the amount of time needed to kill the maximum of 15 elites per run)
CD = has no effect on the farming efficiency because you are already one shotting things all the time with normal hits (it has minimal effect by perhaps reducing the amount of time needed to kill the maximum of 15 elites per run)
AIS = the only stat that has any direct effect on the farming efficiency out of the 3 given stats

Scenario 2:

Here you are one shotting all white mobs with a 2 hander, always but not with a 1 hander.

In this case, it gets a little more complex. This isn't a plain comparison of 1 hander attack speed vs 2 hander attack speed, simply because:
- golgors = 309k HP
- tremors = 320k HP
- everything else = <200k HP
Now, if your 1 hander one shots everything BUT the tremors / golgors then you are still going to come out faster with a 1 hander because the total amount of tremors / golgors in the game is negligible as compared to the quantity of other mobs. The difference in the 2 cases is going to be far more marginal here.

That is not the point of the argument however, the argument is about the CD, CC and AIS, so looking into the 3 stats in this scenario:

To make it clear in the worth of the 3 stats:
for 1 handers:
CD = bring it up by the amount necessary to 1 shot tremors, perhaps 15-50%
CC = needs to be capped in whatever setup of gear you are using, leoric's, cain's etc.
AIS = beyond those 2 points, once again AIS is the only stat of the 3 that will further increase efficiency of farming runs.

for 2 handers:
Exactly the same as scenario 1 = you are one shotting stuff without crits = CC & CD are useless beyond marginally reduced time required to kill elites, AIS is the only stat that will increase farming efficiency.


Scenario 3:
In this scenario you do not always one shot things with normal hits, a crit is needed to ensure that (both 1 and 2 handers).

Given such scenario we come down to the following:
Tremors have the highest HP on MP0 (320k HP), your normal hit = for example 280k. To ensure you 1 shot the tremor you need to add the discrepancy in CD first, in this case that's 15%. Once you add that 15% CD to your stats - CD becomes irrelevant once again. Your next priority would be to obtain as much CC as possible to maximize the chances of you one shotting mobs. Once you have maxed CC, once again the AIS kicks in and has the exact same effect as it would in scenario 1.

In this scenario a 1 hander will come out as a clear winner because of the 10% extra CC it could obtain on an off-hand which would bring the total amount of 1 shot casts 10% higher than a 2 hander thus not only reducing the total amount of time spent casting but also reducing the total amount of casts needed for a 1 hander over the 2 hander.

To make it clear in the worth of the 3 stats:
CD = needs to be raised to an amount where you are one shotting things with a crit hit, it will not be a large amount, perhaps 15-50% easily obtainable with a single item
CC = needs to be capped in whatever setup of gear you are using, leoric's, cain's etc.
AIS = beyond those 2 points, once again AIS is the only stat of the 3 that will further increase efficiency of farming runs.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, going back to the initial argument that

The argument was that: CD & CC play a role in farming efficiency while AIS has no result on farming efficiency whatsoever.

That argument makes no sense whatsoever under any circumstance. AIS will, in every scenario play a role in efficiency of farming, as a matter of fact AIS is one of the most valuable stats in farming efficiency once you reach the maximum point of 1 shotting white mobs with a single cast.

Apologies for hijacking your thread to explain this, i'm out of here.

[Emberos]

you're still going?

also, it's IAS.

[Tuna9719]

Huminator, on 27 November 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

Scenario 2:

Here you are one shotting all white mobs with a 2 hander, always but not with a 1 hander.

In this case, it gets a little more complex. This isn't a plain comparison of 1 hander attack speed vs 2 hander attack speed, simply because:
- golgors = 309k HP
- tremors = 320k HP
- everything else = <200k HP
Now, if your 1 hander one shots everything BUT the tremors / golgors then you are still going to come out faster with a 1 hander because the total amount of tremors / golgors in the game is negligible as compared to the quantity of other mobs. The difference in the 2 cases is going to be far more marginal here.

That is not the point of the argument however, the argument is about the CD, CC and AIS, so looking into the 3 stats in this scenario:

To make it clear in the worth of the 3 stats:
for 1 handers:
CD = bring it up by the amount necessary to 1 shot tremors, perhaps 15-50%
CC = needs to be capped in whatever setup of gear you are using, leoric's, cain's etc.
AIS = beyond those 2 points, once again AIS is the only stat of the 3 that will further increase efficiency of farming runs.

for 2 handers:
Exactly the same as scenario 1 = you are one shotting stuff without crits = CC & CD are useless beyond marginally reduced time required to kill elites, AIS is the only stat that will increase farming efficiency.

This is the scenario I believe most people will find themselves in if using cains/leorics. You say to raise CD by 15-50% to 1-shot tremors. You realize this is complete and utter nonsense right? To 1-shot something that you are currently 2-shotting you need higher min/max damage or more int.

Huminator I see that you are incapable of a grown up discussion so I'm done with you.

Sodee can you provide proof that you run faster than Projaxs and that your build is way better as you state? If not, all I can take away from your post is that, as Athene would say, "you a jelly hater."

[Emberos]

I'd actually respond more intelligently/maturely but I've lost patience as my position keeps getting mischaracterized as "IAS has no value" which means:

a ) the words I typed were not read and understood
b )the words I typed were read and understood but it's just more fun to respond to a strawman argument than what I said

So, until something new is said (instead of the same thing but with more words this time):

Emberos, on 27 November 2012 - 04:51 PM, said:

the only thing I would say with absolute certainty is that I know for a fact that I am more efficient without IAS playing the game then sitting here on the forums arguing with you about not having it

Edited by Emberos, 28 November 2012 - 05:00 AM.

[Sodee]

You got positive feedback before your video was frontpaged because only the people that didn't know much about Witch Doctors were looking at your thread. Now that you are on the frontpage, serious WD's are starting to look at the video, perplexed by how it is that it made front page.

Maybe there's something lost in translation, but you definitely did attempt to shit on the community.

I would LOVE to post up a video of my spec in action, but the major issue I face is not knowing how to do any sort of video editing. That's it.

Also Tuna, I think it'd be really nice if you didn't try to tell people they are incapable of having a "grown up discussion", and quoting athene's "jelly hater" in the same reply. Facts are facts, don't blindly defend people... e-knighting is annoying.

Edited by Sodee, 28 November 2012 - 05:07 AM.

[Tuna9719]

Ok then may you please provide me with your battletag or even simply type out what your spec is?
I am not e-knighting anyone, I simply take offense to inflammatory posts. I think it'd be really nice if you got off your high horse because no one cares that you play HC.

Edited by Tuna9719, 28 November 2012 - 05:50 AM.

[Morkai]

Why use a 2h... Unless the witch doctor uses a 1h, mojo combo they will always be gimped... Or bliz fix 2 handers... They still don't compensate for stats lost from a decent and I mean decent mojo.  The problem is people don't realise what actually makes a 1h dps a solid 1h and what doesn't...

It's not hard to over look... It's taken me time to realize how the stats contribute to dps of the main hand.  

My weapon is 1109 dps but in fact it's actually over 1200dps... The major thing here is min max numbers.  You can pick up a solid 1h for under 50mil that will get you over 150k dps with the right gear...

The fact is.. Yes skorn vs my 1h,  skorn is much higher dps according to the tool tip... However the tooltip doesn't calculate the mojo.  So a nice rolled skorn can be 40k higher dps than my main but when I equip it I actually loose 100k... It's for this that a 1h mojo will always beat 2h unless cc up to at least 8% rolls on weapons...

It's actually better that I cast acid cloud with my 1h mojo setup rather than gimp 100k to use skorn... Or any 2h

At the moment 1h mojo is the only road for endgame wd's.... Sad cause I'd rather use a big scary axe...

[KyKaH]

Well.... I'm kinda agree with Sodee in all of his points. Never posted here, but was surpised this guide make the highlights. I'm not a hater, Projax, I just want to point out that you have to be a little bit more neutral in your approach. And quite frankly mp0-mp1 can be done in trillion ways and half of them would be more effective than yours, just saying not to offend you, but probably to get you a bit closer to the ground as it seems you feel like you have a lot of understanding about the class while there is still a lot of space for improvement for you. My advice is to stay away from generalizations but rather present things as of your humble opinion. Like in the case with IAS you generalization is pretty much misleading, I'm not going into details here to start a war, but you just repeat a common misconception which probably applies to your spec, but debatable in general. There are a lot of experienced WD's out there and those things just make them smile and feel bad for you, don't make a clown out of yourself, be more neutral and you will get better feedback.

Edited by KyKaH, 28 November 2012 - 09:33 AM.

[Huminator]

Tuna9719, on 28 November 2012 - 04:36 AM, said:

Huminator, on 27 November 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

Huminator I see that you are incapable of a grown up discussion so I'm done with you.

Here you go again. I have never talked to you, i have never quoted you. I have basicly ignored every post you have made. Still you stand like ive been talking to you... But please be done with me, if that means ive heard the last of you.

And im very good at grown up discussion, i just have a hard time to see where you fit into that picture.

[Huminator]

Morkai, on 28 November 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

Why use a 2h... Unless the witch doctor uses a 1h, mojo combo they will always be gimped... Or bliz fix 2 handers... They still don't compensate for stats lost from a decent and I mean decent mojo.  The problem is people don't realise what actually makes a 1h dps a solid 1h and what doesn't...

It's not hard to over look... It's taken me time to realize how the stats contribute to dps of the main hand.  

My weapon is 1109 dps but in fact it's actually over 1200dps... The major thing here is min max numbers.  You can pick up a solid 1h for under 50mil that will get you over 150k dps with the right gear...

The fact is.. Yes skorn vs my 1h,  skorn is much higher dps according to the tool tip... However the tooltip doesn't calculate the mojo.  So a nice rolled skorn can be 40k higher dps than my main but when I equip it I actually loose 100k... It's for this that a 1h mojo will always beat 2h unless cc up to at least 8% rolls on weapons...

It's actually better that I cast acid cloud with my 1h mojo setup rather than gimp 100k to use skorn... Or any 2h

At the moment 1h mojo is the only road for endgame wd's.... Sad cause I'd rather use a big scary axe...

Because DPS have no use. Dps is only useble in situation where you stand still and need to do as much dmg as posible. Aka Damage per sec. In an acid cloud xp farm build its all about one shotting mobs, not having a high sustained dps. What 1 shot mobs better? a one handed weapon with a damage range on 400+900 + source adding 100+300 or two handed weapon with a damage range of 1000-1600?. Mojo provide extra crit chance, Skorn provides alot more crit dmg.

How you can say
"Why use a 2h... Unless the witch doctor uses a 1h, mojo combo they will always be gimped."

and

"My weapon is 1109 dps but in fact it's actually over 1200dps... The major thing here is min max numbers"

There you even said it yourself. The major thing is MIN and MAX numbers. Because its all about 1 shotting mobs. As since its about min/max numbers. A skorn is superior compared to a one hander + mojo.

The fact that you say what you do, in a scenario where its all about stutter step casting. Sadly makes me question your intelligence.

[Morkai]

Huminator, on 28 November 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:

Morkai, on 28 November 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

Why use a 2h... Unless the witch doctor uses a 1h, mojo combo they will always be gimped... Or bliz fix 2 handers... They still don't compensate for stats lost from a decent and I mean decent mojo.  The problem is people don't realise what actually makes a 1h dps a solid 1h and what doesn't...

It's not hard to over look... It's taken me time to realize how the stats contribute to dps of the main hand.  

My weapon is 1109 dps but in fact it's actually over 1200dps... The major thing here is min max numbers.  You can pick up a solid 1h for under 50mil that will get you over 150k dps with the right gear...

The fact is.. Yes skorn vs my 1h,  skorn is much higher dps according to the tool tip... However the tooltip doesn't calculate the mojo.  So a nice rolled skorn can be 40k higher dps than my main but when I equip it I actually loose 100k... It's for this that a 1h mojo will always beat 2h unless cc up to at least 8% rolls on weapons...

It's actually better that I cast acid cloud with my 1h mojo setup rather than gimp 100k to use skorn... Or any 2h

At the moment 1h mojo is the only road for endgame wd's.... Sad cause I'd rather use a big scary axe...

Because DPS have no use. Dps is only useble in situation where you stand still and need to do as much dmg as posible. Aka Damage per sec. In an acid cloud xp farm build its all about one shotting mobs, not having a high sustained dps. What 1 shot mobs better? a one handed weapon with a damage range on 400+900 + source adding 100+300 or two handed weapon with a damage range of 1000-1600?. Mojo provide extra crit chance, Skorn provides alot more crit dmg.

How you can say
"Why use a 2h... Unless the witch doctor uses a 1h, mojo combo they will always be gimped."

and

"My weapon is 1109 dps but in fact it's actually over 1200dps... The major thing here is min max numbers"

There you even said it yourself. The major thing is MIN and MAX numbers. Because its all about 1 shotting mobs. As since its about min/max numbers. A skorn is superior compared to a one hander + mojo.

The fact that you say what you do, in a scenario where its all about stutter step casting. Sadly makes me question your intelligence.

Have u seen my rig? My 1h exceeds 900 range and my mojo is def above 100-300... My mojo alone is worth over 60k dps... The math is provided on d3up.com type in my tag and look up my wd...

[Huminator]

Morkai, on 28 November 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

Huminator, on 28 November 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:

Morkai, on 28 November 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

Why use a 2h... Unless the witch doctor uses a 1h, mojo combo they will always be gimped... Or bliz fix 2 handers... They still don't compensate for stats lost from a decent and I mean decent mojo.  The problem is people don't realise what actually makes a 1h dps a solid 1h and what doesn't...

It's not hard to over look... It's taken me time to realize how the stats contribute to dps of the main hand.  

My weapon is 1109 dps but in fact it's actually over 1200dps... The major thing here is min max numbers.  You can pick up a solid 1h for under 50mil that will get you over 150k dps with the right gear...

The fact is.. Yes skorn vs my 1h,  skorn is much higher dps according to the tool tip... However the tooltip doesn't calculate the mojo.  So a nice rolled skorn can be 40k higher dps than my main but when I equip it I actually loose 100k... It's for this that a 1h mojo will always beat 2h unless cc up to at least 8% rolls on weapons...

It's actually better that I cast acid cloud with my 1h mojo setup rather than gimp 100k to use skorn... Or any 2h

At the moment 1h mojo is the only road for endgame wd's.... Sad cause I'd rather use a big scary axe...

Because DPS have no use. Dps is only useble in situation where you stand still and need to do as much dmg as posible. Aka Damage per sec. In an acid cloud xp farm build its all about one shotting mobs, not having a high sustained dps. What 1 shot mobs better? a one handed weapon with a damage range on 400+900 + source adding 100+300 or two handed weapon with a damage range of 1000-1600?. Mojo provide extra crit chance, Skorn provides alot more crit dmg.

How you can say
"Why use a 2h... Unless the witch doctor uses a 1h, mojo combo they will always be gimped."

and

"My weapon is 1109 dps but in fact it's actually over 1200dps... The major thing here is min max numbers"

There you even said it yourself. The major thing is MIN and MAX numbers. Because its all about 1 shotting mobs. As since its about min/max numbers. A skorn is superior compared to a one hander + mojo.

The fact that you say what you do, in a scenario where its all about stutter step casting. Sadly makes me question your intelligence.

Have u seen my rig? My 1h exceeds 900 range and my mojo is def above 100-300... My mojo alone is worth over 60k dps... The math is provided on d3up.com type in my tag and look up my wd...

Its still alot less than a skorn. And why do you link to a site like d3up.com? A site which calculate active dps and stuff like that. Your STUTTER STEP CASTING aka 1 cast, run, 1 cast, run, 1 cast and run. Dps have ZERO usefullness in such a scenario. And if you cannot see the logic in that, your not only helpless your also hopeless.

Its ALL about MIN and MAX damage range. God the stupidity.

Edited by Huminator, 28 November 2012 - 10:07 AM.

[Projaxs]

KyKaH, on 28 November 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

Well.... I'm kinda agree with Sodee in all of his points. Never posted here, but was surpised this guide make the highlights. I'm not a hater, Projax, I just want to point out that you have to be a little bit more neutral in your approach. And quite frankly mp0-mp1 can be done in trillion ways and half of them would be more effective than yours, just saying not to offend you, but probably to get you a bit closer to the ground as it seems you feel like you have a lot of understanding about the class while there is still a lot of space for improvement for you. My advice is to stay away from generalizations but rather present things as of your humble opinion. Like in the case with IAS you generalization is pretty much misleading, I'm not going into details here to start a war, but you just repeat a common misconception which probably applies to your spec, but debatable in general. There are a lot of experienced WD's out there and those things just make them smile and feel bad for you, don't make a clown out of yourself, be more neutral and you will get better feedback.

I doubt that last sentense. I think good wds like emberos and others do one thing - they do post their opinion in this thread to actualy prove me wrong // make some differences in my posted build etc. make disscusion. Only people who are touchy are trolling my post and my videos.

My new videos are reply to the previous one where Im trying to make video what my viewers demand. All the build actualy is in my humble opinion because ive tried many builds that my viewers wanted me to try to compare them. I spend more then 350-400 hrs in testing and making the build. If u see my old video then you can see my build was totaly different. Its all about testing

Someone always say that there must be better build. Well thats true but noone posted anything better yet. Or anything totaly different and same efficient. And I think the reason is just because there is no effective ways in going higher mp and no effective way in not getting acid rain to kill fast mobs + ofc great passive which boosts it out.

So the fact is you should check my videos where im showing the play style. Not the one ive got highlited which was intended as reply to those who demands it from comments in my previous videos.

Yes im helping new wd and rerollers thats the whole point in it. I want the comunity to grow. Experienced wds dont need to read my guide. They can read it if they want to help me and support me in what im doing and they can suggest new builds etc.

Sodee is touchy guy and he is streaming sometimes as far as what i get from his posts. So he just get mad because of one thing that ive said. Im sorry to insult you.

THis is actualy the video where my The acid armageddon was created and why. I used to farm mp3 up that time. But Moldran videos proof me wrong.



ofc there is similar builds when i was playing mp3.

[Huminator]

What im trying to say Morkai. Is thats its all about "damage per CAST" not "damage per second"

[KyKaH]

Projaxs, on 28 November 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

And I think the reason is just because there is no effective ways in going higher mp

Lower mp's farming effectivenes is another common misconception (as well as Alkazier route). I probably agree that it would be more benefitial for barbs or monks, but still doubt that - just don't have much experience with those classes. Also it would be more benefical for budget or low dps characters. Farming higher mp's with WD can be way more effective in fact, with your dps you could do say mp5 with better results but different build and route, not sure about your gear. It's all depends on many factors, i.e. class, skills, gear, farming locations etc. I understand that your video is intended for new wd's and rerollers, it's nice guide, but I repeat I would stay out of any generalizations because almost any generalization here in this game is misleading, you understand more as your character develops (if you are looking to improve) and things change for you. As for others not publishing their videos - they don't have to, but you did it so you have to take consequenses. The "post yours" approach should not be applied here really. Another reason for people not publuishing a lot of videos cause game got easier and there are a lot of ways to build your char as opposed to pre-1.0.4, others just don't want a competition - publishing a really effective setups can result in gear pricing increase.

Edited by KyKaH, 28 November 2012 - 11:57 AM.