70 replies to this topic

[baron01]

Sylvain, on 23 November 2012 - 09:17 AM, said:

I also prefer to farm at a MP with good balance between speed and loot. At the moment, it's MP3. MP4 is still a bit slow.

At 240k DPS, I think it's a waste of DPS if you only run MP1, did you try higher MP? Are you really that slower with that much damage?

I can and I did MP2 and 3 runs in the past. I still switch to MP4-5 for key runs and to change the pace from time to time.

Problem with DPS, for ranged character at least, is that it is a virtual number. DPS on character sheet is nice but what matters is your effective DPS. Ranged character will never be able to fully utilize its character sheet dps unless the target is a stationary rag doll. I can take a hit or two even on MP5 but I will be in grave danger of dieing past that. I will have to start kiting, at which point my DPS is dropping like a stone thrown into a lake.
This is huge difference between ranged and melee classes. Whereas a melee class can benefit from higher MP levels if it meets EHP requirement, ranged class due to fact it will never be able to meet EHP requirement will have to focus on damage output, which is currently heavily trailing behind HP ramp up on higher MP levels.

Ranged character, if a player cares about efficiency, must play on MP level where things die fast. The faster, the better. That is the way I see and feel it.

--edit for clarity--
I fully agree with Blizzard's design philosophy that MP should not be mandatory. I believe that is the right thing to strive for. Just that it feels they were little to cautious trying to ensure higher MP levels are not seen as the only way to play that they overdid it. I would appreciate if they can fine-tune the benefits of higher MP levels a bit to make it even with MP0,1 or 2--not better, just not so much worse in terms of efficiency.

Edited by baron01, 23 November 2012 - 09:46 AM.

[Sylvain]

Niddro, on 23 November 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

Why aren't people allowed to play however they want without idiots commenting with their flawed logic.

And people who disagree with you are idiots? Nice logic right there...

Ultimately, it's about having fun and not getting bored with the game (which will certainly be the case for me at MP0).
But you should ask yourself why you want to level up your paragon?
Is it for the loot at max MF? Because you can already achieve that at low paragon level...

[Niddro]

Sylvain, on 23 November 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:

Niddro, on 23 November 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

Why aren't people allowed to play however they want without idiots commenting with their flawed logic.

And people who disagree with you are idiots? Nice logic right there...

Nah, that is not what I said. I'm not going to discuss this due to the reasons given in my post on the previous page...

[Huminator]

Niddro, on 23 November 2012 - 09:48 AM, said:

Sylvain, on 23 November 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:

Niddro, on 23 November 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

Why aren't people allowed to play however they want without idiots commenting with their flawed logic.

And people who disagree with you are idiots? Nice logic right there...

Nah, that is not what I said. I'm not going to discuss this due to the reasons given in my post on the previous page...

Nobody is telling you what to play. The debate is about efficiency and getting loot. If you want to play at high mp for the fun at the cost of efficiency (loot) ,thats your choice and i dont think anyone care about what mp you play at.

[Sylvain]

Niddro, on 23 November 2012 - 09:48 AM, said:

Nah, that is not what I said. I'm not going to discuss this due to the reasons given in my post on the previous page...

I just checked your profile, I thought you were about efficiency but you don't even have a Hellfire ring, what's the deal?
You don't have a hellfire ring and your ruby isn't fully upgraded, I guess you don't farm for XP.
But you don't even have MF, it seems you don't farm for items aswell...
So... efficiency?...

[baron01]

Sylvain, on 23 November 2012 - 10:10 AM, said:

I just checked your profile, I thought you were about efficiency but you don't even have a Hellfire ring, what's the deal?
You don't have a hellfire ring and your ruby isn't fully upgraded, I guess you don't farm for XP.
But you don't even have MF, it seems you don't farm for items aswell...
So... efficiency?...

It does not help to promote discussion if you resort to personal attacks.

There can be several reasons why someone does not have Ruby in helm fully upgraded. Also mind you, gems past Star level provide very little extra bonus for very high price. Unless you have bought your gems when the price crashed, you are looking at an investment of 10-12 million gold to get 2 or 4% extra EXP bonus. It will surely add up on your way to plvl100 but if you are short on gold, it will probably low on priority list (except EMERALD for weapon, which should be 100% as soon as you can afford it).

Hellfire ring is the same case, you can be unlucky to get very poor rolls on the ring. The trade off might simply not be worth-while from your current rings, however, this is something that would have to be verified as those 35% additional EXP are huge bonus. Still I only equipped my 5th Hellfire ring because previous crafts were very poor rolls.

Now, MF topic... I suggest that you go to Theory-crafting section on these forums and read great topic dealing with may aspects of Magic Find. One of the sub-topics are dealing with the guaranteed rare from 5xNV, which greatly helps people that have no additional MF. This guaranteed drop also move the breaking point where MF starts providing significant benefit much higher than it seems. If being below that breaking point, there is not much point focus on MF because 5xNV guaranteed rare is all you need.

Even if you have 0 MF from gear on your character, you can have MF on your follower or you have high-enough Paragon level that compensate for it. One way or the other, you should not limit your damage & survival for MF because the speed and amount of kills is what will eventually bring you the drops in the fist place.

[Niddro]

Sylvain, on 23 November 2012 - 10:10 AM, said:

Niddro, on 23 November 2012 - 09:48 AM, said:

Nah, that is not what I said. I'm not going to discuss this due to the reasons given in my post on the previous page...

I just checked your profile, I thought you were about efficiency but you don't even have a Hellfire ring, what's the deal?
You don't have a hellfire ring and your ruby isn't fully upgraded, I guess you don't farm for XP.
But you don't even have MF, it seems you don't farm for items aswell...
So... efficiency?...

OK going to break my own rule ^^

I did test MP3 instead of MP2 (I had gained some dps so I figured I'd try it) but I didn't like the flow of it since I had to kite a bit more than I cared for with my play style, which is casual play in the evenings when the kids are asleep. I brought it up simply because I wanted to add to the conversation that I choose a lower MP level due to my own preference. That's why I also emphasized that I am going to continue on MP2. I'm happy with my ruby gem and the 1 Hellfire ring I've crafted so far wasn't good enough for me to feel I should replace the ones I have, something I believe is still my choice to make. I'm not in a rush, I'm playing the game in my pace, in the way that I like it

[Sylvain]

@Niddro: Fair enough, I prefer aa good explanation like that than throwing "idiots" everywhere, thanks.


@baron01: check my profile, do you wonder where I get all my gears and gems?
I find good items I can sell for a good amount of money, that's where MF is interesting.
Sure, I read the MF post, but I can also tell you I usually get 3 rares per elite pack and 1 legendary per run (20-30 min at MP3), my personal record is 4 in a run.

It's nice to talk about XP efficiency and how much mob you can kill, but if you can't maximize the amount of good items you can get, it's pointless IMO.
I'm currently farming MP3 at max MF (just like a level 100 paragon), what's left for me is to level up my paragon, swap out more gears to increase my DPS and farm higher MP.

If MF was pointless, people wouldn't farm paragon to increase it...

[MeosSuaviari]

if u equip your follower with the Hellfire ring will u get the full Xp bonus on ur char ?

[GroentjeBE]

MeosSuaviari, on 23 November 2012 - 11:24 AM, said:

if u equip your follower with the Hellfire ring will u get the full Xp bonus on ur char ?

No, only about 7%

[Vulmio]

Sylvain, on 23 November 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

If MF was pointless, people wouldn't farm paragon to increase it...

I believe people don't farm parangon in order to get more mf, they just farm it because they want to be lvl 100 (ie : for no real reason actually).

[Andead]

baron01, on 23 November 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

you cant even pretend that your gear allows you to overcome that huge HP increase. There is no gear that would allow you to be getting same EXP on MP5+ as you would be on MP1 or MP2.

I never said I'm getting the same amount of xp on MP7. I did say it's also 20min longer.
The question was why I'm I playing on higher monster lever, wasn't it?
I answered because of the lame loot that drops on lower MPs. I don't wanna play just to level up.
And just for the record I was 85 + 1 bar when I posted it. I'm now 86. (about 4hs playtime)
I'm gonna try the same runs at MP0 just to see how long it takes.

[Bagstone]

There are so many different ways to play the game:

-Get to paragon 100 as fast as possible (i.e., most XP/hour)
-Get as much loot as possible (i.e., legendaries/hour)
-Farm keys/ubers on a reasonable MP level to get most keys/hour
-Have a challenge (i.e., play on the highest MP level possible)
-Clear everything, RPG style
-Get all achievements (hunt certain areas for rares or books)
-Play MP10 purist
-and many many many more.

Last but not least:
-Have some fun. Some prioritize fun less (if you're paragon 98, I guess, it's not really about fun anymore but just about finishing these damn two levels), some more. Also, everyone has a different notion of fun: some perceive a relaxed act 3 run on MP0 as fun after a long day at work, some want the real challenge and go MP10 blindfolded with their left hand only.

Obviously, some of these may go together, while some probably won't. There are nights where I do all of the above (except for the purist option). One Alk run for some XP, then one run with MF gear, then get one of these damn act 2 keys on MP10, then the exact opposite and just a few act 2 normal runs for another shot for a Leoric's... and so on. All these words that are being tossed around here - "fun", "efficiency", "challenge" - they don't mean the same to everyone and it's good; in fact, I think you have to give Blizzard credit that they created a game that can be played in so many ways. But, by all means, it's not perfect; especially the "I want a challenge" people feel like they're not getting enough rewards; which I can understand to some extent.

[Andead]

Sylvain, on 23 November 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

Andead, on 23 November 2012 - 07:26 AM, said:

I mean look at my char http://http://eu.bat...65/hero/9813579

I see you're using Sever (for the proc I guess), can you tell me more about it?
Does it proc often and is it worth it?

Every time you kill a mob you crit for crazy amounts of damage. 10-20million.
This damage will heal you to full with just 2.5% LS. I get healed for ~44k when I kill something with bash.
So basically you pull the elites in a pack of mobs and you never die no mater what they throw at you.
Also the extra damage to demons helps alot in ACT3. Most mobs and champs/elites are demons.

[Sylvain]

ok thanks.

[Cryomatic]

baron01, on 23 November 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

Andead, on 23 November 2012 - 07:26 AM, said:

What is the point of this game? Getting better loot in order to advance you character/ers, no?
When 1.0.4 came out, I bought a Leorics signet and a Cains set. 60% extra xp.
By doing MP3 (30% extra xp) you don't need to use the Cains set.
By doing MP5 (60% extra xp) you don't need to use the ring.
I am doing MP7 runs now, and yes they take longer to finish than an MP0-MP3 run, about 20min, but seriously the loot is terrible on those levels.
The amount of rares and legs that drop on MP7+ is 3 times more than MP3.
I get 3-5 legendary items per run.
I mean look at my char http://http://eu.bat...65/hero/9813579
Everything I'm wearing, apart from the 2 weapons and the gloves, have dropped in game.
I started out with 64K dps and I'm now at 187k (204 if I don't use the hellfire ring) and have plenty of millions to gear up my other characters once I hit 100 on this one.
I don't see the point of running mindlessly at MP0 one shooting everything, skipping gold and items and looting shitty lvl57 legendarys that won't sell, won't salvage to a brimstone and even the vendor say's OMG another one?

There is so much wrong in that post. Some basic info to get into context: MP3 grants you 30% extra EXP bonus but the monster health is 326% higher than on MP0. Same scenario applies to MP5 or MP7, just that on these MP levels you cant even pretend that your gear allows you to overcome that huge HP increase. There is no gear that would allow you to be getting same EXP on MP5+ as you would be on MP1 or MP2.
You can play for fun, you can do high MP level games for the challenge, just don't pretend you are doing it efficiently.

I started playing on MP3 when 1.0.5 went live. My DH had barely over 100k DPS at that time. I have greatly upgraded my gear since then. Im currently sitting at 240k DPS and significantly more EHP then when I started. I play on MP1 nowdays because I can blast through Alkaizer route in 12-14 minutes, get great experience, lots of rares and approximately 2 legendary drops on average each hour I play (I usually play 2 to 3 hours a week day, more on weekends).

Finally, Ruksak is defending his point from the perspective of melee character. I think it is commonly agreed that melee characters tend to play on higher MP levels due to different class mechanics than ranged characters. As long as the melee character can sustain incoming damage from monsters, which is impacted by MP levels as well, melee can successfully defeat monsters on higher MP. It will take longer but the bonuses provided by higher MP can outweigh the extra HP.

Ranged class, DH or Wizard, will never be able to sustain being in melee for longer period of time, therefore, they will have to kite. Kiting means you are not attacking, your are backtracking to areas where there is nothing to be done and generally make the combat last longer. All these things make you inefficient--you get less EXP and loot. And there is no fun in running around like a scarred chicken when you cant kill monsters faster then they are able to close distance on you.

i dont believe you cant get the same xp you do in mp5 that you can do in mp1-2, they have more hp but you can manage to do it quick enough if you really have the gear for it and even with more hp this just could mean you aoe more creatures at the same time and yes im sure you can do the same xp and even maybe more if you are really geared and there is more then enough gear in this game to do it

Edited by Cryomatic, 23 November 2012 - 01:40 PM.

[maka]

@AudioCG: I never played D2 on bnet, only SP and LAN games, so I can't comment on the trade situation there.

What I can comment on is the presence (or absence) of a feeling that I'm wasting my time farming for my own gear. I have this feeling in D3, and I didn't have it in D2.

You might think I'm crazy, but I think that the fact that it was such a hassle to trade things in D2 made people rely more on their drops (and 'forced' Blizzard to consider self-gearing as a very viable strategy).
Let me give you an example: I found a very good int Echoing Fury the other day. I could very easily sell it and use the gold to buy gear for my 5 characters, it would take me 5 minutes. In D2 it would take me hours, or days.
Now, the reason I don't sell it (and buy tons of other gear) is because I know that it would make farming even more pointless (less probability of finding an upgrade). But I bet that there are people that, if they found that godly item in D2, wouldn't sell it because it was such a hassle (they would equip it), but they WOULD sell it in D3 because it takes them 5 minutes. I think this breeds a culture of "finding stuff to sell so I can buy stuff to wear", instead of "finding stuff to wear", and the game reflects this.

Finally, I'll leave you with a question I have asked 'AH lovers' (just kidding ) many times, but has never been answered: wouldn't it be the same thing if mobs just dropped gold piles of differing amounts, and then you could just go to a vendor, input the stats you want, and he'd sell you the gear? So instead of dropping a crappy rare, the mob would drop 3k gold; instead of that godly item, the mob would drop 100M gold. If buying and finding are pretty much the same, then that situation would be acceptable, no?

Anyway, cheers for the discussion, mate.

Edited by maka, 24 November 2012 - 02:45 AM.

[Sylvain]

I found my gloves and boots, my Vile Ward is waiting in my stash.
I found a really good Inna's chest, sold it and was able to buy all the rest of my gears.
My other characters are equipped with self found gears aswell...

With the new ratio for legendary drop, it's actually possible to find good stuff now, compared to the randomness of crappy rares.

[Babu]

I think its way more fun to farm higher mp. I got so damn bored to do this brainless mp2 grinding with my barb. Im now at paragon lvl 85 and i have done soooo many mp2 runs that i got super bored. Now i started to farm mp5-6 and it is so much funnier! Tho i dont get so much xp but its ok.

[Andead]

So I said I was gonna check how long it takes to get from 86 to 87 on MP0.
I also did MP3 and MP5.
To get to level 87 from 86 you need 217M EXP so on the next 2 levels I counted the time and runs up to 217M EXP.
When I say 13.1 I mean that out of the 5 areas of the Alkaiser run I had to do only the 1rst area.
I picked up all jewelry, all archon armor(no belts, no bracers and no class items) and ilvl 63 maces/axes.
I killed all goblins I found and every single mob in each area. I didn't open any chests (except resplendent) and didn't brake items unless I needed fury.

MP0:

• 14.4 runs to get to 217M EXP
  
• Time: 3:15h
  
• Up-time of WotB: 0% (I was fury starved even though I used the Templar, a mighty weapon in MH, War Cry: 40 rage rune, Animosity passive)
  
• 9 legendary items / 0-3 per run
  
• ID rare items in bag and vendor/store every 5 runs

MP3:

• 13.1 runs to get to 217M EXP
  
• Time: 3:45h
  
• Up-time of WotB: Only when needed (read below)
  
• 10 legendary items / 0-2 per run
  
• ID rare items in bag and vendor/store every 4 runs

MP5:

• 12.2 runs to get to 217M EXP
  
• Time: 3:20h
  
• Up-time of WotB: 80%
  
• 16 legendary items / 0-3 per run
  
• ID rare items in bag and vendor/store every 2 runs

MP0 can be done way faster if a different spec is used and all the running away mobs are ignored.
At the first 2 MP3 runs I tried to keep WotB up but it didn't work very well. I changed to the normal WW spec, mace in MH and only kept Animosity and the Templar. I used every gear upgrade I had in my stash, ignoring defenses and went at it with 31k HP, 5200 armor, 400 AR and 228K dps. If I had done that from the first MP3 run I guess the time would be 15 min less.

Now about the loot.
On most of the MP0 runs I had to get 5 NV stacks before the elites dropped any rare items and all the legendary dropped from normal mobs. They were all crap I salvaged them. Most of the ilvl63 items dropped from normal mobs and goblins. None of the rare items were salable.
On MP3 2 goblins and 6 elites dropped a legendary. Rest 2 were from normal mobs. I salvaged only 2. Two rings and a chest are salable from the rare items.
On MP5 I got a legendary from elites/mobs even before I had 5 MV stacks. Also elites and goblins dropped 3+ rares with 0NV stacks.
I salvaged 4 legendary items and kept 6 for my other characters. I sold an Inna's chest for 17M, a Talrasha amulet for 45M and I have IK gloves that has 82M bid so far. Four rings are salable and I found a mace with 980 dps, 163 dex, 95% CHD and a socket, also an axe with 860 dps 10% IAS 96% CHD, 2.8% LS and a socket.

tl:dr
MP0-4 is to grind paragon levels
MP5-9 is to find gear
MP10 is to get 100% keys/organs, for anything else it's a waste of time

Edited by Andead, 24 November 2012 - 08:03 PM.