77 replies to this topic

[m4st0d0n]

Bleu42, on 19 November 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

Unless battle.net itself is actually hacked, changing item codes to dupe won't happen. We've all seen 'lag' dupes, where pretty much the server itself fucks up, and while this type of exploit might be repeatable as soon as it's fixed correctly, duping won't exist.

You can't and you won't know that unless you're a Blizzard employee. Unless a serious leak happens (or a method gets widely abused) there won't be official information available to the public about Blizzard's anti-hack effectiveness. So you can have your opinion, but you can never be certain about the truth, whatever it is. Well, okay, maybe someday, in a Blizzard historical retrospective...

So we can't know the truth, but we won't get a lie either. Blizzard doesn't lie... sometimes it conceals truth well, but no, not lieing. So did we hear Blizzard saying "we did not detect any duping" or "there is no duping in Diablo III" after release? No we didn't, because Blizzard doesn't lie. Bear this in mind: when there's no official denial, there's unofficial confirmation. We can't know for sure though...

[ruksak]

m4st0d0n, on 19 November 2012 - 11:17 PM, said:

Bear this in mind: when there's no official denial, there's unofficial confirmation. We can't know for sure though...

Very wise, sir.

The 'ol "We will not confirm or deny" line. Typically, this is an admission by omission.

I would ask people to be careful in presuming that the silence is confirmation of a viable in-game duping method. Despite the very angst ridden, condescending and oft times immature protestations by some here, in this thread, that in-game duping has arrived and is running rampant, there is much evidence that this is likely just isolated incidents of rollback scamming.

[DreamWalker]

ruksak, on 19 November 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:

arcmandak, on 19 November 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

It makes perfect sense to me why these dupes aren't so widespread that the AH is flooded with them. I think people are severely underestimating the intelligence of these dupers.

1) If you were duping BiS items and then selling them on the AH for 2b gold to cash out (which is far more profitable than selling on the RMAH for $250 currently), you would be a complete idiot to put more than 1 of these items on the AH at a time. 2b items that are actually worth their price are tracked and multiple copies of the same item on the AH/RMAH would discourage legit players from buying them (would you buy an item knowing it was a dupe?). In fact, to be safe you wouldn't put duped items consecutively on the AH because it might drum up attention.
2) 2b items do not insta-sell, in fact the more expensive the item the longer it takes to sell usually. People who have this kind of gold track the same items sometimes for days. Think about it, if you're literally dropping nearly $1000 on an item, you'd better make sure it's worth the price. If we estimate it takes ~3-4 days to sell one of these 2b items on the AH then 10 of these items existing on diabloprogress means the duped item in question has been on the market for over 1 month.
3) It's very difficult to differentiate the method of duping (whether it's rollback dupes or some actual in-game technique). You'd think we could keep track of a couple of these duped items and see if their quantity increase over time (which would be a tell-tale sign that it was some in-game technique) . Unfortunately the dupers know that we can keep track of the quantity of these items so it's unlikely for them to keep selling the same items (especially since people who actually have the gold to buy these items will be discouraged knowing it's a duped item). The most we can do at this point is to keep tracking items to see if more dupes pop up. If more duped items keep popping up and their quantity is 5+ we'll know it's unlikely that they're all from roll-back dupes.

You can bet the people who are duping already had a ton of gold to begin with (hence how they could acquire such good items to dupe) and know how the AH works at that level. Therefore they would take the proper precautions to minimalize their chances of being caught or their trail being followed.

By my estimation, human greed knows no bounds nor exercises little control.

If people were duping in-game than what reason would they have to not flood the market? We know a process like this would leak like a sieve and we'd have many many people doing it. Anyone actively duping (as we saw in D2) isn't going to be operating as if they're afraid of getting caught. They're going to sell as much as they can with a designated account and then just get a new one if that one is banned.

The reason we're seeing such finite amounts is because people have acquired their dupes via a rollback and they only have a finite amount. Therefor, they're being far more judicious about how they unload them.

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Therefore they would take the proper precautions to minimalize their chances of being caught or their trail being followed.

Why? Why would they bother unless they were rollback duping? They have essentially garnered a money machine at their whim, why would they bother to protect a $60 account? So what, it gets banned. They know how to dupe. One trip to best buy and 3 new accounts later the operation resumes.

People are minimizing their risks, or it would seem that way, for one of two reasons. They are rollback duping and they only have a finite amount. If they wish to rollback from one account to the other, repeating this process as accounts are closed and/or marked as not being eligible for further rollbacks, they need time to purchase new accounts. Their slow-pace sales and the customer service avenue of rolling an account back would dictate expectations for a much slower stream of dupes hitting the market, as we've seen so far.

true... so true !

[mannercookie]

All of you guys are arguing over a pointless topic, it's really hard for me to post with ruskak camping these forums 24/7 and reporting all my posts to mods.

Anyhow, look at my post date of this thread, when I was making a warning about the best neck on USA server will get duped. It's only been 5 days and there's already two top 25 barbs wearing the neck.

Now, whether the duping is rollbacks, server-hacking, lag, and whatever else it can possibly be. It simply doesn't matter, when you have the best items in the game continuously being duped at a very fast rate it breaks the game's economy and the effects will be felt all the way down to the mid-tier and low-tier items as well.

http://www.diablopro...m/item/17730069 <--- keep an eye on this, there will be plenty more in the upcoming days.

http://us.battle.net...04017309?page=1 <- the real discussion is here, for the non-trolls of diablofans.com if you would like to join in the actual discussion of duped items.

http://us.battle.net...66836638?page=1 <- Duping method possibilities thread here, if you want to hypothesize about how people are duping, but does it even matter?

Edit: I find it very amusing that Blizzard takes botting so seriously and is very responsive to every single botting thread, yet every single duping thread goes unanswered, ask yourselves which is a bigger problem?

Edited by mannercookie, 21 November 2012 - 06:53 PM.

[kjiflrf]

the chinas are dupers... its sad

[Huminator]

Detective Mannercookie.. You wouldnt even pass 1st grade on ze detective school. The fact that you can't tell even the most obviousis just meh... Its like moldran when the brimstone price raised due to a bluepost saying they considered to add new shizzle to blacksmithing.. Then obvious alot of people are speculating if gold could be made on it, so prices fly up and down.. And the idiots like Moldran "SHIT the price just dropped 10k per unit, some serious duping is happening". And then all he retarded viewers goes wow duping is going on everywhere, madness... And bla bla bla. And the the duping rumor spreads like tsunami.

You can't take a person, who cannot tell the difference between rollback dupes and actual player dupes. A person who ignores the most obvious facts, since his mind can only say dupe dupe dupe dupe. His blind to facts and logic.

[mannercookie]

Huminator, on 22 November 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

Detective Mannercookie.. You wouldnt even pass 1st grade on ze detective school. The fact that you can't tell even the most obviousis just meh... Its like moldran when the brimstone price raised due to a bluepost saying they considered to add new shizzle to blacksmithing.. Then obvious alot of people are speculating if gold could be made on it, so prices fly up and down.. And the idiots like Moldran "SHIT the price just dropped 10k per unit, some serious duping is happening". And then all he retarded viewers goes wow duping is going on everywhere, madness... And bla bla bla. And the the duping rumor spreads like tsunami.

You can't take a person, who cannot tell the difference between rollback dupes and actual player dupes. A person who ignores the most obvious facts, since his mind can only say dupe dupe dupe dupe. His blind to facts and logic.

okay, what are you even talking about?

if your going to troll, at least makes some kind of sense.

oh nice of you to contribute, well nothing.

[Huminator]

Your contributing with nothing.. Your filling everything up with so called "evidence", "proof". When even a 2 year old can see that whatever yout linking/posting is the opposit of evidence and proof of player duping. Its actualy very clear that we are takling rollback dupes. But that you deny. Because your living in denial of the obvious. Your as way off as Moldran.

[ruksak]

mannercookie, on 21 November 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

All of you guys are arguing over a pointless topic, it's really hard for me to post with ruskak camping these forums 24/7 and reporting all my posts to mods.

I'm not sure why you keep trying to flame me? IF you want to make a public thread, expect opposing opinions. Just because I give a different take than what your agenda wishes to see espoused.....it doesn't mean I am a troll.

Your posts get deleted because they contain inflammatory rhetoric aimed at me and other posters. Just more evidence that you seem to seek blame in rather......odd sources.

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Edit: I find it very amusing that Blizzard takes botting so seriously and is very responsive to every single botting thread, yet every single duping thread goes unanswered, ask yourselves which is a bigger problem?

Botting is the new flavor of the week at Bnet. Last weeks it was dupes.

If you had some semblance of patience and a reasonable thought process, you would realize that Blizz attacks duping with the same zeal. Though I would consider duping to be a far more sensitive issue, thus warranting a great deal of tact, judiciousness and silence on the part of Blizz.

From Blue statement regarding Bots/Cheats and why they don't practice full disclosure at every hiccup heard round the realms;


http://us.battle.net...ic/7200050113#6

An important thing to keep in mind is that we don't make public announcements every time we action players for cheating, and the reason for this is that we are constantly removing this kind of exploitative behavior from the game -- on a weekly basis, sometimes even on daily basis. Public announcements would become tedious if we decided to make one every single time we banned someone for using a bot, a hack, or some other kind of cheat. Instead, we usually will post something whenever we issue a big wave, or whenever we feel like we need to remind players that exploitative behavior is not okay and can lead to a permanent ban from Diablo III.

Edited by ruksak, 22 November 2012 - 08:26 PM.

[mannercookie]

ruksak, on 22 November 2012 - 08:14 PM, said:

mannercookie, on 21 November 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

All of you guys are arguing over a pointless topic, it's really hard for me to post with ruskak camping these forums 24/7 and reporting all my posts to mods.

I'm not sure why you keep trying to flame me? IF you want to make a public thread, expect opposing opinions. Just because I give a different take than what your agenda wishes to see espoused.....it doesn't mean I am a troll.

Your posts get deleted because they contain inflammatory rhetoric aimed at me and other posters. Just more evidence that you seem to seek blame in rather......odd sources.

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Edit: I find it very amusing that Blizzard takes botting so seriously and is very responsive to every single botting thread, yet every single duping thread goes unanswered, ask yourselves which is a bigger problem?

Botting is the new flavor of the week at Bnet. Last weeks it was dupes.

If you had some semblance of patience and a reasonable thought process, you would realize that Blizz attacks duping with the same zeal. Though I would consider duping to be a far more sensitive issue, thus warranting a great deal of tact, judiciousness and silence on the part of Blizz.

From Blue statement regarding Bots/Cheats and why they don't practice full disclosure at every hiccup heard round the realms;


http://us.battle.net...ic/7200050113#6

An important thing to keep in mind is that we don't make public announcements every time we action players for cheating, and the reason for this is that we are constantly removing this kind of exploitative behavior from the game -- on a weekly basis, sometimes even on daily basis. Public announcements would become tedious if we decided to make one every single time we banned someone for using a bot, a hack, or some other kind of cheat. Instead, we usually will post something whenever we issue a big wave, or whenever we feel like we need to remind players that exploitative behavior is not okay and can lead to a permanent ban from Diablo III.

Need I remind you who made an embarrassment out of himself on the thread by first starting flaming/trolling to win an argument that you were losing, not only to quickly have mods delete the conversation after you realized how big of a mistake it was.

It's quite simple, public forum like you said, stop getting mods to delete my posts because your not happy.

[ruksak]

Happy Thanksgiving to all of you, even you Mannercookie.

I hope everyone had a great time with family and friends.

Just not in the mood to argue...had a great day with my kid and my family, watching football and eating the dark meat....mmmm dark meat.

Edited by ruksak, 23 November 2012 - 12:07 AM.

[Astrand]

m4st0d0n, on 19 November 2012 - 11:17 PM, said:

Bleu42, on 19 November 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

Unless battle.net itself is actually hacked, changing item codes to dupe won't happen. We've all seen 'lag' dupes, where pretty much the server itself fucks up, and while this type of exploit might be repeatable as soon as it's fixed correctly, duping won't exist.

You can't and you won't know that unless you're a Blizzard employee. [...]

With some knowledge and logic, he can make a solid assumption. Every single item in the database have unique ID number, so to duplicate it someone would need to input new item while generating exactly the same stats. There are only a few ways to generate new items: buy from vendor, craft, drop, or created by Blizzard. First 3 are done by a server-side script, and the only information we can send to the server is something like "we killed monster x" or "we craft item type x" where x is some number, and we only get information about the created item back to the game client. There are instances when server generate 2 identical items, however it does not allow creating items that already exist.

On the other hand, when Blizzard make a rollback, they most likely do not take back items that were "stolen" from the account, since before they react thoes items change hands few times, so they input new items from backup, giving them exactly the same stats, and new ID numbers, basicly duping them.

So, someone would either have to hack the server/database or be a Blizzard employee with access, to dupe items.

Edited by Astrand, 23 November 2012 - 04:00 PM.

[m4st0d0n]

Astrand, on 23 November 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

m4st0d0n, on 19 November 2012 - 11:17 PM, said:

Bleu42, on 19 November 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

Unless battle.net itself is actually hacked, changing item codes to dupe won't happen. We've all seen 'lag' dupes, where pretty much the server itself fucks up, and while this type of exploit might be repeatable as soon as it's fixed correctly, duping won't exist.

You can't and you won't know that unless you're a Blizzard employee. [...]

With some knowledge and logic, he can make a solid assumption. Every single item in the database have unique ID number, so to duplicate it someone would need to input new item while generating exactly the same stats. There are only a few ways to generate new items: buy from vendor, craft, drop, or created by Blizzard.  [...]

You assume too much. What if Blizzard uses some kind of NoSQL database? That's not a far guess, considering the amount of data they need to access every minute. How do you know that these are the only possibilities to generate new items? The gem dupe happened abusing the AH for example... not even in game!

So yeah. Hackers gonna hack, and you won't know about their success if they're subtle enough. Let's just hope Blizzard can stomp on their attempts in a timely manner...

...and considering that they allowed the wizard invulnerability bug over a month, and reacted only when it went public, we can't be sure about that either.

[Chiron]

m4st0d0n, on 23 November 2012 - 04:26 PM, said:

The gem dupe happened abusing the AH for example... not even in game!

Please, elaborate. Weren't they duped with rollbacks, like all the items?

[Gohei27]

I stopped reading this thread half way through it because I couldn't bare to read another person's thoughts, feel free to give me the same treatment and stop now.

For those people claiming that recent dupes floating around are from rollbacks, you should not argue with such conviction. Using logic that rollbacks and the amount of dupes are the clear answer, you then ask for proof to the contrary. However your argument doesn't prove anything either, and asking for people to show you a dupe method is absurd. Which is basically what you're doing since you don't argue that the dupes exist, just how they were created.

If we continue to use logic to argue these points, you should consider other reasonable points.

• There have been other dupe methods that have been patched in the past, so rollbacks aren't the only method.
  
• Rollbacks aren't a new method of duping, Blizzard and others have known about it for months.
  
• The only thing that that the RMAH/GAH aren't flooded with dupes proves, is that the dupe isn't public.
  
• The rollback method is public, and if you do manage to pull it off, I doubt you could do it a third time.

I could go on but this should be sufficient for anyone using logic as their argument.

The bottom line is this, duping is a real thing, the method used and arguing about it is pointless.

[ruksak]

Gohei27, on 23 November 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:

The bottom line is this, duping is a real thing, the method used and arguing about it is pointless.

I disagree about the importance of the method. Understanding the 'how' is paramount. We all know why, it's the 'how' that is important.

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For those people claiming that recent dupes floating around are from rollbacks, you should not argue with such conviction.

Until I have reason to believe otherwise, it seems logical to presume the most likely scenario. Should I leave my mind open to other possibilities? Yes, and I have. However, my argument here has been from a position of observation. All I have is what I can observe.

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Using logic that rollbacks and the amount of dupes are the clear answer, you then ask for proof to the contrary. However your argument doesn't prove anything either, and asking for people to show you a dupe method is absurd.

The presence of one thing and the absence of another allows for me to not require proof of that which is absent here. Also; I never asked for proof of a viable dupe method. Some genius posted a few well-known fake/edited vids supposedly showing an active dupe method, both gleamed from Gold Seller sites which either want to sell you gold or simply rob you. Nobody asked him to do so.

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There have been other dupe methods that have been patched in the past, so rollbacks aren't the only method.

When Where Who What? Since you're going all Mr Spock up in this mothafucka, I would expect the logical thing to do would be to prove this assertion. You can't just state that as fact and leave it at that.

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Rollbacks aren't a new method of duping, Blizzard and others have known about it for months.

OK? Soooo....? What do we do with this information, as in, how does this change anything?

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The only thing that that the RMAH/GAH aren't flooded with dupes proves, is that the dupe isn't public.

It proves that dupes aren't "rampant", as was suggested by the OP in one of his many threads about this exact same topic. We know what happens when people discover a dupe method, we've seen it in action before. So why is restraint all of the sudden a key attribute of the nefarious duper? Because real money has now entered the equation? Hasn't real money always been a part of this equation?

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The rollback method is public, and if you do manage to pull it off, I doubt you could do it a third time.

Hence the limited amounts we've seen documented, all very much isolated. Do you see?

[Gohei27]

When duping becomes "rampant" it's because it's public. Since the only method that has been posted publicly is the rollback method you can conclude that this isn't the method. Furthermore when you use this method you get a dupe of all your current gear. For the amount of dupes that are out there you would need to have been rolled back more times than allowed.

Blizzard had to roll back the Asia server once already due to massive duping back in June, you can find this information yourself. While this method was claimed to have not been live on NA/EU servers. It was assumed that it was and patched, guess what was released after? That's right! The RMAH. Which was pushed back several weeks, which was also assumed because Blizzard needed to fix Asia and patch the dupe method first. It's all speculation however, but what is fact is that Asia was rolled back for duping and right after the RMAH was released.

Now you might believe that the RMAH doesn't prevent duping from going public, but common sense dictates it does. If you consider that Asia duping is rampant and NA/EU isn't, do you suppose it's because we have an RMAH and Asia doesn't? Because I think it does.

There were also two other methods hinted at in the beginning of Diablo's release. One was with commodities, which was fueled by more speculation when Blizzard disabled them. The other was when we were able to cancel auctions after the first five minutes had past by changing our local time/date on our PCs. Neither method was released publicly after being "fixed" and Blizzard has never confirmed fixing them either.

[omnom]

there are atleast 2 dupe mehtods out there in private hands and 1 known to public (rollback)
1 i presume uses gems to perm identicle item# items the other is either rollback or something the AH does under stress

AH one was fixed by blizzard when gems stopped being duped as they were the main item duped using the AH dupe method this was actually mostly done a while ago but the gems were only unloaded in late october early november the reason they unloaded the gems in this period is because this is when the dupe was fixed and all the accounts owned by players who did the dupe were at risk of being banned so they all rushed the AH hense the pricedrops

the item with socket one i expect will be fixed in 8 hour maintence on tuesday

now this is just my speculation and likely wrong just my conclusions of what has been going on with duping

Edited by omnom, 25 November 2012 - 12:30 AM.