42 replies to this topic

[Talys]

Emberos, on 13 November 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

Anyone that has run a spreadsheet on runs over time knows that with current XP/MF bonuses, there is a breaking point where the next highest (and any higher MP level beyond that) is a penalty / less efficient option to choose.  If you are OK with that as a mechanic, clearly we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I have done this (run spreadsheets) and must diagree with you.  The difference between MP1 and MP4 on most static maps (like fields of misery) is less than 10 seconds for me -- like 1:38 versus 1:48; and up to MP6, it's another 20 seconds.  Frankly, that's less time than I spend IDing stuff and pausing/chatting.

[Talys]

Nubtro, on 13 November 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

Talys I´d like to know what you consider a "full clear" (areas) and how long it takes you to do such a run (solo). Wondering because I do almost full a3 clears (minus skycrown and) on higher MPs (most often 6) and 5 was the max number of legendaries I got in one run, like ever (well, twice lol). Most of the time, it´s 0-2. It´s not like you have more MF when we´re both maxed out.

Agreeing with most of your points as MF directly affects legendary drop rates, except that the NV elite pack drop can also be a legendary, has been proven.

Theorycrafters believed the legendary drop rate to be 1:2000 before 1.0.5, Blizzard said they doubled it so we assume it´s 1:1000 (drops not kills). This means around these drop rates (last column - max mf)

MP  HP/HP% DMG  +XP  +MF/GF  +ITEM MAX MF LEGENDARY
1) 1.5 150% 109.60%  10% 25%  1%  +400%  1:200
2) 1.5  225% 120.12% 20%  50% 8%  +425%  1:191
3) 1.45 326%  131.65%  30%  75%  17%  +450%  1:182
4) 1.4 457%  144.29%  45%  100%  26%  +475%  1:174
5) 1.4 639%  158.14%  60% 125% 36%  +500%  1:167
6) 1.4 895%  173.32%  75%  150%  47%  +525%   1:160
7) 1.4 1253%  189.96%  95%  175%  59%  +550%   1:154  
8) 1.4 1755%  208.20%  115%  200%  71%  +575%  1:149
9) 1.4 2457%  228.18%  135%  225%  85%  +600%  1:143
10) 1.4 3439% 250.09% 160%  250%  100%  +625%  1:138

Almost full clear to me means:

Keep 3, Keep 2, Fields of Misery, Rakkis, Tower Damned, Tower Cursed, Stonefort, Areat 1, Areat 2, Areat Core, Azmodan.

Skipped maps: caverns on Fields, Skycrown (I don't like all t he steps), Keep 1.  I skip a little bit of the end of the Towers, where there's lots of running, and do the last pack just before Areat 2 by going to A2 wp and going up.

Sorry, I don't have time to tabulate a total for you..  but ballparkish, 30 minutes.  But I chat a lot, so often it takes longer

[Emberos]

Talys, on 13 November 2012 - 06:55 PM, said:

I have done this (run spreadsheets) and must diagree with you.  The difference between MP1 and MP4 on most static maps (like fields of misery) is less than 10 seconds for me -- like 1:38 versus 1:48; and up to MP6, it's another 20 seconds.  Frankly, that's less time than I spend IDing stuff and pausing/chatting.

Ok, and between MP6 and MP10?  Because, barring you have the best gear I've ever seen, there is a breaking point for you where the next level up is not beneficial.  For some people the difference between MP0 and MP4 is negligible because they overkill at MP0 and still one shot at MP4.  But for that same person, they are just barely one-shotting MP4 mobs.  And now that same person goes to MP8 . . . now there is a difference -- kill time has gone up much faster than xp/mf bonus.  Sounds like your breaking point is higher than 95+% of the population, congratulations on that, but it is still there.

Talys, on 13 November 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

I completely agree that the point at which you can faceroll mobs is the best MP to farm.

Also, you already agreed with me.  No takebacks!!

Edited by Emberos, 13 November 2012 - 08:27 PM.

[Zhaph]

Emberos, on 13 November 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

Anyone that has run a spreadsheet on runs over time knows that with current XP/MF bonuses, there is a breaking point where the next highest (and any higher MP level beyond that) is a penalty / less efficient option to choose.  If you are OK with that as a mechanic, clearly we'll just have to agree to disagree.

This is a mechanic that is baked-in throughout the game though! There is ALWAYS (well, once you hit 60) a breaking point beyond which you cannot progress without losing efficiency. For example, think back to before we had MP. A lot of players by that time had cleared Inferno Act I, and were progressing through Act II and Act III. Now, if that describes where your character was at, I'll bet that you spent most of your time running Act I over and over. Why? Because if you ran Act II, even though you technically COULD finish it, you would die a lot, it wasn't as fun, and you weren't getting as many drops per hour because of your slow kill speed.

How is choosing to stay and farm Act I in that situation any different than choosing to stay and farm MP1 over going "ahead" to MP2+ in our current situation?

EDIT: And also, shouldn't we WANT a breaking point like that in the game? If you reach the point where nothing in the game is challenging anymore and you've got all the gear you need to faceroll every type of monster/elite out there... what's the point of playing? The breaking point gives us a progression goal.

Edited by Zhaph, 13 November 2012 - 07:11 PM.

[Emberos]

Zhaph, on 13 November 2012 - 07:08 PM, said:

This is a mechanic that is baked-in throughout the game though! There is ALWAYS (well, once you hit 60) a breaking point beyond which you cannot progress without losing efficiency. For example, think back to before we had MP. A lot of players by that time had cleared Inferno Act I, and were progressing through Act II and Act III. Now, if that describes where your character was at, I'll bet that you spent most of your time running Act I over and over. Why? Because if you ran Act II, even though you technically COULD finish it, you would die a lot, it wasn't as fun, and you weren't getting as many drops per hour because of your slow kill speed.

How is choosing to stay and farm Act I in that situation any different than choosing to stay and farm MP1 over going "ahead" to MP2+ in our current situation?

EDIT: And also, shouldn't we WANT a breaking point like that in the game? If you reach the point where nothing in the game is challenging anymore and you've got all the gear you need to faceroll every type of monster/elite out there... what's the point of playing? The breaking point gives us a progression goal.

You make a good point generally as I absolutely agree there should be progression levels which could also be viewed as breaking points.  I guess for me the difference is that before we chose not to do the next level higher difficulty because we were dying / the content was beyond where our gear could reliably take us.  So we farmed better gear until we stopped dying so much.  Now, we choose lower difficulties not because we are dying or because the higher difficulty is too challenging but because the reward does not scale with the additional time.  I guess someone could view that as semantics but for me it doesn't "feel" right.

It also seems to promote playing the game at a level where there is little challenge and you can one-shot most things / kill elite packs in 3-4 seconds (whatever MP level that is for you).  If you up the challenge to where you are taking 10 seconds or 20 seconds on an elite pack and may be in some danger, the reward does not scale.  I guess you could say the challenge is the reward . . . but usually in games, there are increased in-game incentives (rewards) that align with the increased challenge.  It seems the opposite here.

Edited by Emberos, 13 November 2012 - 07:31 PM.

[Talys]

Emberos, on 13 November 2012 - 07:06 PM, said:

Talys, on 13 November 2012 - 06:55 PM, said:

I have done this (run spreadsheets) and must diagree with you.  The difference between MP1 and MP4 on most static maps (like fields of misery) is less than 10 seconds for me -- like 1:38 versus 1:48; and up to MP6, it's another 20 seconds.  Frankly, that's less time than I spend IDing stuff and pausing/chatting.

Ok, and between MP6 and MP10?  Because, barring you have the best gear I've ever seen, there is a breaking point for you where the next level up is not beneficial.  For some people the difference between MP0 and MP4 is negligible because they overkill at MP0 and still one shot at MP4.  But for that same person, they are just barely one-shotting MP4 mobs.  And now that same person goes to MP8 . . . now there is a difference -- kill time has gone up much faster than xp/mf bonus.  Sounds like your breaking point is higher than 95+% of the population, congratulations on that, but it is still there.

Talys, on 13 November 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

I completely agree that the point at which you can faceroll mobs is the best MP to farm.

Also, you already agreed with me.  No takebacks!!

To be honest, I think we agree on most everything.  I don't believe that solo, it will be ever efficient, even with the best gear in the game (let's just say, DiabloProgress #1 HeroScore, for simplicity) to play MP9 or 10.

In groups, it's a little different; you can usually go 1-2 MP higher while still demolishing mobs, because their HP scales only 75%, while group damage scales more than 100%.  By the latter, I am referring to stacking buffs -- for example, two monks will get you 8% ASI and 48% damage; WD will get you voodoo; wiz will give you ASI bubble; DH will give you MOD, etc.

Put another way, my buffed damage goes through the roof in a group with great buffs, and our buffs complement each others', thereby allowing us to sneak in an extra MP or so (and offsetting the loss of a follower).

[Kodaijin]

Talys, on 13 November 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

...I have a monk with 240k unbuffed dps...

~puts on sunglasses~ Mother of god. ~proceeds to nerd drool~

Can I see your blizzard armory pretty please?

Edited by Kodaijin, 13 November 2012 - 10:25 PM.

[Andarus]

That is nothing new. It was known that MP0-MP2 is the most efficient way to play XP-Wise. I always play somewhere between MP3 and MP6 - depending if I need Keys, want to grind XP or just want some Items.
The HP-Scaling is really annoying, its not really harder in higher MP Levels, it takes just WAY LONGER.

[Talys]

Kodaijin, on 13 November 2012 - 10:17 PM, said:

Talys, on 13 November 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

...I have a monk with 240k unbuffed dps...

~puts on sunglasses~ Mother of god. ~proceeds to nerd drool~

Can I see your blizzard armory pretty please?

It varies a little depending on the gear configuration I use (for instance, when farming, I might give up as much as 30k dps to get 28 radius), but here you go:

http://us.battle.net...7/hero/16576834
http://www.diablopro...orelei/16576834

[Kodaijin]

Talys, on 13 November 2012 - 11:32 PM, said:

It varies a little depending on the gear configuration I use (for instance, when farming, I might give up as much as 30k dps to get 28 radius), but here you go:

http://us.battle.net...7/hero/16576834
http://www.diablopro...orelei/16576834

<3's Thank you Talys.

[Bagstone]

http://www.diablofan...d-about-mp-now/

Bluepost about this exact topic.

MP is optional and the scaling is working as intended.

[Emberos]

That's what you took from those 9 pages, huh.  I heard a blue stating their intended design goal and then asking for feedback as to why we felt they did not meet this goal with the current mechanics:

The goal of Monster Power is to give players the ability to scale up how challenging enemies are in each difficulty and, in return, get some pretty cool bonuses to adventure stats as well as the opportunity to earn bonus items . . . I gather from your post that you feel the bonuses given for challenging yourself aren’t really worth the effort, but my question is what would you change about it? (Keeping in mind that we don’t want to force players into the higher MP levels.)

A good portion of that feedback states much the same that has been stated in this thread.  Current rewards are not "pretty cool" as intended because they do not correctly scale with difficulty / time invested.

Edited by Emberos, 15 November 2012 - 07:21 AM.

[Bagstone]

Last time I checked the topic of this thread was "scaling exp broken". The blue post clearly states that this is not the case:

For some, MP5 might be best. For others, MP1 or MP2 feels right. If you’ve got a lot of supporting gear, maybe MP7 or MP8 is your so-called “sweet spot.”

There's already one person in this thread who's farming MP4 because it's the sweet spot. If I look at your gear, you could probably farm higher MPs and gain more XP/hour if you would reduce MF and pickup (however, I'm in the same boat as you - I love pickup).

Besides, what I "took from those 9 pages" is lots and lots of QQ. I was just looking at the blue post because blue posts give hints on what changes to the game we can expect.

Regarding your reward for higher MPs: the blue post indicates that they might bump up item drop rates a bit. Which I don't like, it will just cause further inflation and widening the gap as explained before, but in this regard there might be something happening, yeah.

[tr0llen]

I have 200k+ dps w/o SS and I still cant beat act3 mp0 exp/hour. Its faster, more fun and less stressful.

At mp3/4 i only get half the exp/hour I get from mp0, and I dont notice any difference in legendary drops.

IMO monster power level was made to slow people down and in the end earn more money.. another "hidden" nerf by bli$$ard.

Maybe when im paragon 100 I will increase MP for just that little extra MF.

[Bagstone]

tr0llen, on 15 November 2012 - 09:46 AM, said:

I have 200k+ dps w/o SS and I still cant beat act3 mp0 exp/hour. Its faster, more fun and less stressful.

At mp3/4 i only get half the exp/hour I get from mp0, and I dont notice any difference in legendary drops.

200k+ dps unbuffed and you're just half as fast on MP3 as on MP0? What the hell? Sorry, but I seriously doubt that. Furthermore, this is +75% magic find plus a good chance of a bonus item, in the long run there *is* a difference. If you don't notice it, it's because of bad RNG.

[Chiron]

I'm also finding it hard to believe that someone can actually farm MP4+ more efficiently than the lower MPs but maybe that's just because my barb only has 60k unbuffed DPS and for me, even MP1 is a chore compared to MP0. On MP0 I can get around 5k kills per hour and over 40 Million exp/h with just a 25% gem. I get nowhere near that if I raise the MP.

What I wish was that Blizzard would make MP1 easier so that we poor and unlucky players would have more areas to farm than just Alkaizer Act 3 with MP0. The efficiency hit we take on MP1 makes it just plain stupid to play on Act 1 and 2. But I'd really like to farm those too. Oh well, maybe when I get near 100k UB DPS I can start thinking about farming MP1.

[tr0llen]

Bagstone, on 15 November 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

tr0llen, on 15 November 2012 - 09:46 AM, said:

I have 200k+ dps w/o SS and I still cant beat act3 mp0 exp/hour. Its faster, more fun and less stressful.

At mp3/4 i only get half the exp/hour I get from mp0, and I dont notice any difference in legendary drops.

200k+ dps unbuffed and you're just half as fast on MP3 as on MP0? What the hell? Sorry, but I seriously doubt that. Furthermore, this is +75% magic find plus a good chance of a bonus item, in the long run there *is* a difference. If you don't notice it, it's because of bad RNG.

Half as fast was exaggerating a little

I do mp 0 runs @ 50-60mill/hour

Mp 2-3 runs @ 30-40mill/hour

Is 10-30 mill less exp/hour worth 75 MF? I dont think so.

When you reach paragon 100 and look away from exp/hour, one could even argue that the increased MF from MP1+ is cancelled out by the xtra amount of elites/white mobs being killed.

I think id rather take 100 elites/hour with 300 MF than 50 elites/hour with 400 MF.

MP levels doesnt give you more legendaries or faster experience, it does however make Diablo 3 much more challenging or in my opinion just much more boring to play.
.

[ErlendOlsen]

I would say i have pretty high level gear, and here is my findings:

@ mp0 --> 60-70mil xp per hour
@ mp1 --> 60-65mil xp per hour
@ mp2 --> 55-60mil xp per hour

And this trend just continue the higher mp level i go. (i have no problems farming @ mp 10)

I agree with OP, we should get more reward in higher mp.

Video showing average mp0 run:



Video showing average mp3 run:



And i a video showing i have no problems @ mp10



I wish blizzard would buff the damage output of the moobs, and nerf the moobs HP. Think that would fix "our problems"

http://eu.battle.net...856/hero/432203

Edited by ErlendOlsen, 15 November 2012 - 01:45 PM.

[Stephenk291]

MP is mandatory..you shouldn't be vastly rewarded in all aspects for going higher..that defeats the purpose of them implementing MP in the first place..

nothing to see here...move along.

[Ruppgu]

Some of you need to realize that not everyone is a Monk/Barb where efficiency starts to tank if you one shot mobs.

For Wizards/WDs efficiency starts to tank when you NO LONGER one shot mobs. I think people in this thread (and in general), need to stop thinking like everyone plays their class. MP levels affect each class a bit differently and that's why you'll see varying opinions on the higher MP levels.