40 replies to this topic

[Baron_Underbheit]

unReality, on 09 November 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

Couldn't be more wrong.

There is a difference between the "Adds X% to [Element] Damage" (i.e. Triumvirate, Zuni Boots, Tal's Amulet), and "[Element] Skills Deal X% More Damage" (i.e. Tal Rasha's set bonus).

What you're describing applies only to the latter (i.e. increase damage for specific elemental skills, not reflected in DPS number), while the "Adds X% to [Element] Damage" applies to your physical weapon damage (i.e. reflected in DPS number, increases damage on all skills regardless of element).

That does not make me wrong at all. In both cases you described, dps ist showing *something* and doing *something* and those two aren't connected. No matter which scenario you chose, dps shows irrelevant number. It's very simple - one number cannot represent at the same time:
1. elemental damage modified by a percentage
2. elemental damage not modified by a percentage

It's nice to have one general indicator (as now), but we simply need more data to have accurate insight of what's being modified by what and how much damage it does. That's all I'm saying.

[Bagstone]

Baron_Underbheit, on 09 November 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

unReality, on 09 November 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

Couldn't be more wrong.

There is a difference between the "Adds X% to [Element] Damage" (i.e. Triumvirate, Zuni Boots, Tal's Amulet), and "[Element] Skills Deal X% More Damage" (i.e. Tal Rasha's set bonus).

What you're describing applies only to the latter (i.e. increase damage for specific elemental skills, not reflected in DPS number), while the "Adds X% to [Element] Damage" applies to your physical weapon damage (i.e. reflected in DPS number, increases damage on all skills regardless of element).

That does not make me wrong at all. In both cases you described, dps ist showing *something* and doing *something* and those two aren't connected. No matter which scenario you chose, dps shows irrelevant number. It's very simple - one number cannot represent at the same time:
1. elemental damage modified by a percentage
2. elemental damage not modified by a percentage

It's nice to have one general indicator (as now), but we simply need more data to have accurate insight of what's being modified by what and how much damage it does. That's all I'm saying.

There's tons of data to give more than accurate insight. But there's even more - a bluepost:
http://us.battle.net...c/6413025317#13

The tooltip is just wrong at the moment.

[Xenocow]

Jaetch, on 09 November 2012 - 05:16 PM, said:

Let's just say without my Triumvirate (+6% fire, +6% lightning, +5% arcane), Tal Rasha's Allegiance (+6% holy), and Zunimassa's Trail (+8% poison), I would lose 31% of my total DPS output. I use an Echoing Fury, which is a weapon with no elemental affixes attached to it.

If I have an equal weapon-DPS one-hander like Chantodo's Will which does fire damage, I would be royally screwed.

Yepp exactly, the % Bonus damage you get only with so called "Blackweapons", meaning Physical Weapons...
With Elementar Damage Weapons you get a bonus too, but not so much.

Stacking up Bonus Damage is actually quite a significant Damage Boost ;-)

Stone of Jordan got also 6% Bonus... it all adds up.

[Clavdivs]

I, Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, The God, declare that there isn't any data, blue post or not. The 'dps' as concept is applicable only in weapon situations, and only when cooldown is listed. whatif a skill with cooldown is used and there is 'CCCXV% weapon damage'? Should The God go and sum up all weapon and all other damage sources, min and max, then divide it by two? and then multiply by CCCXV% AND ruling attribute AND bonuses? or game should do it? or rely on arbitrary chosen, often misleading number who claims that know it all? whatare the cooldowns of basic spells? should they be measured individually, or rather listed in tooltips?

[read more on this and other exciting topics, on divine site, updated soon!]

The God declare Bllzzard has to put relevant data on math and game concept on SITE, visible and easy to find by everyone, and NOT partially reveal it through 'blue posts'! Very unprofessional! [The God sighs]

[unReality]

Baron_Underbheit, on 09 November 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

unReality, on 09 November 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

Couldn't be more wrong.

There is a difference between the "Adds X% to [Element] Damage" (i.e. Triumvirate, Zuni Boots, Tal's Amulet), and "[Element] Skills Deal X% More Damage" (i.e. Tal Rasha's set bonus).

What you're describing applies only to the latter (i.e. increase damage for specific elemental skills, not reflected in DPS number), while the "Adds X% to [Element] Damage" applies to your physical weapon damage (i.e. reflected in DPS number, increases damage on all skills regardless of element).

That does not make me wrong at all. In both cases you described, dps ist showing *something* and doing *something* and those two aren't connected. No matter which scenario you chose, dps shows irrelevant number. It's very simple - one number cannot represent at the same time:
1. elemental damage modified by a percentage
2. elemental damage not modified by a percentage

It's nice to have one general indicator (as now), but we simply need more data to have accurate insight of what's being modified by what and how much damage it does. That's all I'm saying.

All due respect, I don't think you understand how the "Adds X% as [Element] Damage" affix works.

DPS shows your damage per second if auto-attacking, and the affix above increases your weapon damage, and thus increases the DPS shown.

[Makesh]

I'm still very confused how stuff like "Adds x% to Poison damage" works, I always thought it was basically "Increases your damage by x%", but judging by damage calculator like this, "+dmg %" and "+elemental dmg %" works differently so I'm pretty confused to how it works.

[Baron_Underbheit]

@unReality

Aorry for a delay, but in unterland slaves work twice as hard on weekends, so need of supervision is... increased.

Anyway, i agree vit you completely on mechanisms points - and i believe that i never contradicted them. So, i agree with you on how bonus is applied. if i made post looks otherwise, that vas my english.

However, i'm kinda going bit off-topic in this thread - question a usability of sole dps info on char screen.

Here: initially, Blizzard wanted to make elemental bonuses actually work and make a difference depending on kinda weapon is used (even characteristic of elemental damage vas listed). Somewhere in the vay, they said that it's 'too complicated' and reduce them all to mere addition of damage - i guess initially physical part of damage should have been converted to spell effect, and not the elemental one, but they changed it. Yet, the difference between elemental damage value remained? Maybe it will be fixed... in future patch, or expansion.

So, current dps indicator is faulty on many occasions, mainly on skill that have no use of attack speed, or have a substantial cooldown.

Currently, any presence of attack skill, 'boost one's ego' by showing a number different than one that vill be used.

And that's about all I wanted to say - "don't always look at dps and think change is REAL, especially on attack speed matter - every class has cooldown skills that profit zero of attack speed, and player who uses them a lot and masses attack speed is misleaded to think he's stronger than he really is"

Edited by Baron_Underbheit, 12 November 2012 - 01:03 PM.

[Loroese]

Makesh, on 10 November 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

I'm still very confused how stuff like "Adds x% to Poison damage" works, I always thought it was basically "Increases your damage by x%", but judging by damage calculator like this, "+dmg %" and "+elemental dmg %" works differently so I'm pretty confused to how it works.

"Adds +x% [Elemental] Damage" takes the fraction of your total damage that is physical and adds bonus damage based on that fraction. If you have an all physical weapon, you get that much bonus damage to your dps.

Each bonus damage affix type is multiplicative but bonus damage of the same types are additive. For example, if you have a skill that says "Increases damage by 50%", you multiply your dps without the skill by 1.5 and that's your new dps.

If you have zuni boots with 8% poison damage and a tal neck with 5% cold damage, you gain 13% bonus to your physical damage. With a purely physical weapon, you just multiply your old dps by 1.13 and that's your new dps.

If you have both the ele damage and bonus damage, your new dps is 1.5*1.13 = 1.695 times your base dps, because they are multiplicative of each other. If your weapon has some elemental damage, then you don't gain the full 13%.

Also, all items with "Adds +x% [Elemental] Damage" add together for the overall multiplier, like someone mentioned previously, and as I showed above, even if the elemental types are different (like the triumvirate).


EDIT: For those making the argument that the in game dps number doesn't show anything, it's actually almost all the information you need to know about any skill in the game. If you want to know the effective dps of a skill that does xxx% weapon damage, with no CD or resource, just multiply your dps number by xxx/100 and that's your effective dps. If you want to know the average damage of a skill with yyy% weapon damage, but with a CD, take your DPS number, divide by your attack speed to obtain your average base weapon damage, and multiply that by yyy/100 for your average damage per attack. Skills with a resource cost are more complicated but you can use a similar analysis and figure out average damage per attack. The point is all those numbers are based off your in game dps number.

Edited by Loroese, 10 November 2012 - 01:23 AM.

[Bagstone]

Clavdivs, on 09 November 2012 - 08:55 PM, said:

I, Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, The God, declare that there isn't any data, blue post or not. The 'dps' as concept is applicable only in weapon situations, and only when cooldown is listed. whatif a skill with cooldown is used and there is 'CCCXV% weapon damage'? Should The God go and sum up all weapon and all other damage sources, min and max, then divide it by two? and then multiply by CCCXV% AND ruling attribute AND bonuses? or game should do it? or rely on arbitrary chosen, often misleading number who claims that know it all? whatare the cooldowns of basic spells? should they be measured individually, or rather listed in tooltips?

[read more on this and other exciting topics, on divine site, updated soon!]

The God declare Bllzzard has to put relevant data on math and game concept on SITE, visible and easy to find by everyone, and NOT partially reveal it through 'blue posts'! Very unprofessional! [The God sighs]

Dear God,

If you think there is not enough data, then just go and create some. It's not clear what you mean by "'dps' as concept" - there is the dps displayed in the character screen and the actual dps while playing and using all your spells. Everyone relates to the first, because the actual dps varies extremely on play style and build. For example, the displayed dps for Archon builds is usually higher than those of CMWW builds with similar gear, but the actual dps may be comparable - it's just a difference in how the skills and game mechanics work. Therefore, your cooldown, 315% weapon damage, and your ability to smash your buttons of course come into play here in order to compute the actual dps.

However, for the matter of answering people's questions and explaining the mechanics of the "adds x% to elemental damage" affix, these factors are irrelevant for calculating the displayed dps in the character screen. Also, the reason why Blizzard has not put up this information is because they want to keep it simple - D3 is a hack'n'slay game and we are clearly going OCD on it with the theorycrafting (which I like). If you want more transparency in game mechanics, plus logs to have even more data and evidence, I suggest you play WoW. For the time being, many people on these forums have done a lot of research and put a lot of effort to demystify the mechanics of the elemental damage affix. Rather than questioning every blue post, theorycrafting data, and even evidence that was being provided, you of all people should be able - thanks to your divine wisdom - to understand and acknowledge these people's work.

Sincerely,

A mortal.

[Indimix]

The only thing that is clear here, is that Blizzard screwed up at defining some key concepts, or, at explaining in detail how they work.

[Clavdivs]

@bagstone

The God will use some of divine time to clarify:

I, Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, The God, by "DPS as a concept" have in mind DPS value shown in character screen. by 'more data', The God has one more field in character screen - "Damage" which doesn't include any attack speed modifiers, and is intended for mortals to cope more easily with things like 'CCCXV% weapon damage'. for a skill like comet, attack speed has no influence at all, and mortals shouldn't be confused into believing that comet damage grew bigger cause of some attack speed related item. The God fails to see anything wrong with this request, so it is correct!

by 'more data in details screen' The God considers that each skill should have expected damage listed in "details" - they are called details, aren't they? don't look them if you don't want to!

but, there's more:
"As a reminder, we don't permit the use of hacks or other third-party software in conjunction with Diablo III. Most of the programs out there that are intended for use with the game are actually cheat programs and automation programs ("bots") that exploit Diablo III's mechanics and provide players with an unfair advantage. However, "third-party software" also refers to any file or program that attempts to:
Obtain information about Diablo III that's not normally available to the player"

a blizzard "blue post"! not to obtain information not normally available to the player, really.

and in patch note, tell a large tale about how 'procs are being modified'? where are 'procs' defined, or even mentioned, aside from patch nores, in blizzard site? explained? or when life steal was over-nerfed: players, of course, had previously known that life-steal gets lower by difficulty level? and it is indicated - where? so, The God ignores blizzard, all the blue posts 'commands' as they have no weight, and continue to visit data-miners sites, in search for even greater wisdom, hidden from us.

[blizzard had probably in mind 'map-hacks', but, as a lot of things, this is easy to misinterpret, as The God purposely did - there is too much data not normally available to the players - way, way too much]

if you played diablo II, you may remember that both left and right button had damage indicator - not one used for all, but two separate one. what would hurt to have damage (or dps) listed for all used skills in 'details' section? they are only VI of them

Edited by Clavdivs, 10 November 2012 - 11:27 AM.

[LarsW]

I find lightning as a good one, since it makes a good AoE effect, when it procs. But Holy is one of the best I heard. Since holy is good versus demons.

[sssdrawr]

LarsW, on 11 November 2012 - 12:13 AM, said:

I find lightning as a good one, since it makes a good AoE effect, when it procs. But Holy is one of the best I heard. Since holy is good versus demons.

?

[maka]

The God, once again, on the vanguard.

Clavdivs, on 10 November 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

if you played diablo II, you may remember that both left and right button had damage indicator - not one used for all, but two separate one. what would hurt to have damage (or dps) listed for all used skills in 'details' section? they are only VI of them

This is an old fight of mine, both here and on the official forum, but I never had any support.

[HAL9000]

Loroese, on 10 November 2012 - 01:18 AM, said:

EDIT: For those making the argument that the in game dps number doesn't show anything, it's actually almost all the information you need to know about any skill in the game. If you want to know the effective dps of a skill that does xxx% weapon damage, with no CD or resource, just multiply your dps number by xxx/100 and that's your effective dps. If you want to know the average damage of a skill with yyy% weapon damage, but with a CD, take your DPS number, divide by your attack speed to obtain your average base weapon damage, and multiply that by yyy/100 for your average damage per attack. Skills with a resource cost are more complicated but you can use a similar analysis and figure out average damage per attack. The point is all those numbers are based off your in game dps number.

this is wrong on so many levels.

1) logical level - it is far easier for player to calculate a value manually, instead having it pre-calculated and shown by the game?!
2) as much i am tempted do discard math part in whole with a definitive dissmissive statement, being made to serve, i'm going to correct it instead

"if you want to know the effective dps of a skill that does xxx% weapon damage, with no CD or resource, just multiply your dps number by xxx/100 and that's your effective dps"

this is effective dps WITH attack speed bonus + weapon speed included. as mentioned before, attack speed in not always relevant, and dps (damage, in fact) calculated by upper formula will be incorrect - how much? depending on attack speed you have.


and by "multiply", you do mean this, don't you? correct formula would be:

x*(1+attsp%)=dps [x being the damage]

x = dps / (1+attsp%(including weapon)), and NOT dps-(1-attsp BONUS%)*dps

[this is likely not your intention, but trust me *most* people calculate it *exactly* like this]

n = x * yyy%, n=burst damage, yyy% skill bonus

now, is this a formula every player had pre-made algorhythm in head and just glances at wrong dps on character screen and come up with burst damages for all spell applicable immediately, isn't it?

"Skills with a resource cost are more complicated but you can use a similar analysis and figure out average damage per attack. The point is all those numbers are based off your in game dps number"

basic calculus being flawed, and numbers only loosely connected to game dps number *with* mistake, no point to correct it here. but also there is another logical one, perhaps worth mentioning:

"why do damage without attack speed value precalculated by the game in process of getting dps should be calculated back?

a finishing line: current interface is perfect and there is no need to change it. current level of info given about mechanic is perfect, too. so thought like mine may appear only in misinformed an uneducated person, who thinks dividing by fictional value using formula is lot easier than simple change in interface? as for dps being enough - are the current spell damages dealt based on damage or dps? normally, it would be on damages, but on info screen says 'damage' where clearly should say 'dps'?

people (and AI) who demand more data have a right to demand it, especially since it is useful addition to game control and understanding by player, and not interfere with current 'damage' which is actually dps, in any matter


On the point "DO SOME THEORYCRAFTING AND CALCULATION YOURSELF" - i do protest:
1. it is customary that game shares far more mechanics than it is case here - at least in diablo series
2. dave, clavdivs and myself did a lot of different calcations and xls tables (for skill comparison, mainly), we just don't use them for revealing exploits and nonsense like 'most-effective-route-with-most-effective-build' - they shouldn't be ONE, but moreof. both routes and builds should be viable to very similar extent

but last remark, and partially whole post was confusing and off-topic - well, not as a reply, but as a whole post - i am sorry for that. but the OP got his answers already, i think

[Clavdivs]

maka, on 11 November 2012 - 12:20 AM, said:

The God, once again, on the vanguard.

Clavdivs, on 10 November 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

if you played diablo II, you may remember that both left and right button had damage indicator - not one used for all, but two separate one. what would hurt to have damage (or dps) listed for all used skills in 'details' section? they are only VI of them

This is an old fight of mine, both here and on the official forum, but I never had any support.

well, you do have it now. divine wisdom percept you as a worthy, and there is no need to fight this or any other battle alone. divine site has only one final purpose - to draw attention of developers on official forums - after it's perfected, of course.

but as mortals tend to post trivial nonsense each 0.1 sec on official forum, only a controversial thread supported by several people who will post replies (and perhaps argue in process - looks kinda jerry springer but it works - it's what The God did on purpose recently on site with item-data compiled - and get infraction in reward, but The God is above it - result is that site got lots more publicity and consensus that it should be a sticky, which haven't happened - you can't win all the time)

similar is with the divine site - it will never succeed, if not noticed by developers. is the work for nothing? no - it is unselfish try to make game better, through number of articles.

now, i one person has one really good idea wanting to fight for it - it is likely that more of that waits where it came from. the site is generally open for everyone having a constructive ideas, but will not be for unworthy ones.

there. The God spoken while watching the tv!

[Loroese]

HAL9000, on 12 November 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

Loroese, on 10 November 2012 - 01:18 AM, said:

EDIT: For those making the argument that the in game dps number doesn't show anything, it's actually almost all the information you need to know about any skill in the game. If you want to know the effective dps of a skill that does xxx% weapon damage, with no CD or resource, just multiply your dps number by xxx/100 and that's your effective dps. If you want to know the average damage of a skill with yyy% weapon damage, but with a CD, take your DPS number, divide by your attack speed to obtain your average base weapon damage, and multiply that by yyy/100 for your average damage per attack. Skills with a resource cost are more complicated but you can use a similar analysis and figure out average damage per attack. The point is all those numbers are based off your in game dps number.

this is wrong on so many levels.

1) logical level - it is far easier for player to calculate a value manually, instead having it pre-calculated and shown by the game?!
2) as much i am tempted do discard math part in whole with a definitive dissmissive statement, being made to serve, i'm going to correct it instead

"if you want to know the effective dps of a skill that does xxx% weapon damage, with no CD or resource, just multiply your dps number by xxx/100 and that's your effective dps"

My statements were correct. The first part you quoted was for a skill with no CD or resource cost, so you can spam it to your heart's content. That means the effective dps of the skill is the same as the dps number listed in your char sheet, with some adjustment for weapon damage of the skill. To be precise, a 100% weapon damage skill that you spam non-stop does 100% of your in game dps number. A 300% weapon damage skill that you can spam non-stop does 300% of your in game dps number (such as Archon for Wizards, without improved rune or it'd be 375%).

The second quote is also correct, which you assumed to be wrong because you thought my first statement was wrong. That or I just have no idea what you were trying to say.

While I wouldn't mind having more info or details somewhere between in game or on the official game guide, I still claim the dps number is sufficient to calculate nearly everything you need to know. My arguement was made to oppose the statements that the dps number shown is more or less meaningless. Most people can get by just fine by assuming higher DPS number means higher effective dps. For those of us that want to quantify it more precisely, you can use your in game dps to calculate effective weapon damage and go from there, as I mentioned previously.

In short, for a skill that does xxx% weapon damage:
average hit = xxx*DPS/APS
average dps if you can spam skill = xxx*DPS

where APS = attacks per second and the DPS value is the in game number displayed on the char sheet.

[Bearbarian]

I can't believe people are still arguing this. IT WAS FIGURED OUT FOUR MONTHS AGO!!!

I'm not even going to go into the math for the 100th time, but if you want you can search through my posts to find an example where I have.  Here is a very well written post on reddit that 100% ACCURATELY DESCRIBES how "+x% to elemental damage" works, regardless of what Blizzard's half assed description and blue post says.  It even provides an in game test you can perform to check your calculations.

www (dot) reddit (d ot) com/ r/Diablo/comments/vznuv/how_innas_damage_works/

Basically, "+x% to elemental damage" works like a "+x-y Damage" affix on a ring or amulet, except that it scales with the rest of your gear.  It's that fucking simple.  You always get the bonus to damage, regardless of what elemental type your weapon is, or what elemental type the skill you're using is

HOWEVER, if you're using a "+x% to cold damage" affix, you only get the cold/snare effect applied if you're using a skill that says "weapon damage" or "as physical" in the tool tip.  It doesn't matter whether your item has only physical damage (the so called, and wrongly worded "black damage type") or if it has any element associated with it too.  The only difference between physical damage weapons and elemental damage weapons is that physical damage weapons have higher minimum physical damage, and thus receive GREATER benefit from these "+x% to elemental damage" affixes, but any weapon receives a bonus in the end.

Edited by Bearbarian, 13 November 2012 - 08:54 PM.

[Loroese]

Bearbarian, on 13 November 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

I can't believe people are still arguing this. IT WAS FIGURED OUT FOUR MONTHS AGO!!!

I'm not even going to go into the math for the 100th time, but if you want you can search through my posts to find an example where I have.  Here is a very well written post on reddit that 100% ACCURATELY DESCRIBES how "+x% to elemental damage" works, regardless of what Blizzard's half assed description and blue post says.  It even provides an in game test you can perform to check your calculations.

www (dot) reddit (d ot) com/ r/Diablo/comments/vznuv/how_innas_damage_works/

Basically, "+x% to elemental damage" works like a "+x-y Damage" affix on a ring or amulet, except that it scales with the rest of your gear.  It's that fucking simple.  You always get the bonus to damage, regardless of what elemental type your weapon is, or what elemental type the skill you're using is

HOWEVER, if you're using a "+x% to cold damage" affix, you only get the cold/snare effect applied if you're using a skill that says "weapon damage" or "as physical" in the tool tip.  It doesn't matter whether your item has only physical damage (the so called, and wrongly worded "black damage type") or if it has any element associated with it too.  The only difference between physical damage weapons and elemental damage weapons is that physical damage weapons have higher minimum physical damage, and thus receive GREATER benefit from these "+x% to elemental damage" affixes, but any weapon receives a bonus in the end.

Which is what I said about 3 times. I maintain my own dps spreadsheet so I'm pretty familiar with how all the dps mechanics work. However, "physical damage" type skills are still considered elemental, so they do not add extra affects from bonus damage. Only skills that don't list any damage type work, such as Spectral blades for wizards, or normal attacks used when out of resources.

[Baron_Underbheit]

@bearbarian

what an unusual stroke of luck that we have you here! well, OP probably didn't knew that for everything he doesn't know, all he needs is to google 'bearbarian and reddit' and answer appears magically four months old... but now i'm sure he won't make same mistake again!

as for rest of us, i'm pretty sure i know what i was talking about, and it didn't had much connection with topic, and others gave correct answer to OP

but, we needed you to come in unpleasantly and arrogantly - i vote you to become admin, reddit, reddit - that place is a mess, you know