43 replies to this topic

[aerialus]

I'm handling reflects now with horrify buff, bad medicine and stacked physical res on most of my gear (in addition to all res).
Still painful since you don't heal while attacking reflect elites, meaning damage you take hurts much more.

Problem is bunch of other classes can easily use their strongest attack vs reflect and HEAL at the same time. Wd needs ridiculous amount of defensive stats to do it, in comparision, mainly because life steal is limited to 3 if using 1h (wizard has 4.5 which is 50% more, demon hunter has shadow power, barb and monk have innate 30% dr and dual wield 6% life steal).

I suggest read the thread first, before commenting.

[Huminator]

Conclution remains the same. Balance offence with defence. If you dont got the defence for your heavy hitting spells. Use something less heavy hitting. As i said its naive to think a damage spell like zombie bears didnt have a downside.
Try stick to darting em and use your bears while under spiritwalk. Just like demon hunters did back at release, running around clearling act 3 with 10k hp. It was lands hits under smoke screen, else you would die.

[aerialus]

Demon hunters have cluster arrow that deals over 1000% damage per hit to single target, and they have absolutely no issues using it, because they have shadow power than gives them 15% life steal. 5 times more than wd with 1h weapon can reach. And that ability has no cooldown, you can cast it several times in a row and spam as many cluster arrows as you wish (as many as hatred allows you).
So I don't think it is naive to think. Other classes don't have problems using their strongest damage skills vs reflect (stronger even than bears). I don't see why it must be so punishing only for witch doctor, that's all.

[Huminator]

You have all the tools you need to overcome reflect damage. 100% armor from horify, spiritwalk. I dont see the issue. If you have such a huge problem not being able to do everything with ease... Spec zombie dog, sacrifice.

The spec is all about saccing zombie dogs, so first you need to remvoe the cooldown on summon zombie dogs, which is easily done with helm, ring and offhand... And tada your immortal.. You have 4 zombie dogs, each doing 275% weapon in 12 yards aoe. 4x275= 1100% weapon dmg, you chose the heal rune on sacrfice and tada.. You can spam summon and sac which heals you for 25500 everytime..

How many classes have a 1100% weapon dmg in 12 yards aoe with a 25500hp self heal with no cooldown?? And basicly no mana cost either. Since you will be at 100% mana all the time..

Your posibilities are endless, all you need is to open your eyes.

[Hasansabbat]

IcyInsanity, on 29 October 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

My wd friend got pretty nice dps and is fine vs reflect aslong its not health link or horde on mp 7 or higher.

Hey Icy why do you share WD secrets :)But yeah as you said it becomes extremely easy to kill reflect mobs provided you/your party has enough dps. On most of the Reflect packs I can compansate alot of dmg before I have to use any cool downs. To give example; MP8 Siege Breaker/Kulle, Party setup DH, 2 monks 1 with conviction 1 with healing mantra I could spam bears with slam dance and 1 stack soul harvest and didn't die a single time. Also my solo tests on MP7 Siege was a success(I only changed pants with high int high vit resist) On MP6 solo didn't even used a pot. At the moment my HP is kinda low so if I get more health I think I can even stand vs health link reflects without dying.

[aerialus]

Huminator, on 08 November 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

You have all the tools you need to overcome reflect damage. 100% armor from horify, spiritwalk. I dont see the issue. If you have such a huge problem not being able to do everything with ease... Spec zombie dog, sacrifice.

The spec is all about saccing zombie dogs, so first you need to remvoe the cooldown on summon zombie dogs, which is easily done with helm, ring and offhand... And tada your immortal.. You have 4 zombie dogs, each doing 275% weapon in 12 yards aoe. 4x275= 1100% weapon dmg, you chose the heal rune on sacrfice and tada.. You can spam summon and sac which heals you for 25500 everytime..

How many classes have a 1100% weapon dmg in 12 yards aoe with a 25500hp self heal with no cooldown?? And basicly no mana cost either. Since you will be at 100% mana all the time..

Your posibilities are endless, all you need is to open your eyes.

I don't know why you bring this silly build. It is old, known, and there it kills much slower than several other specs, including bears. Oh and you need to pay for very specific and expensive gear (ring) to reduce cooldown to zero.
Point is if you compare it to other classes, they have much better ways dealing with reflect, and they are not restricted to some gimmky cooldown reduction build, or using weak skills not to instagib themselves vs reflect. Horrify has cooldown, and you still need very high defensive stats to even stop losing health (and life steal weapon), While for example dh needs about half of these stats, no life steal, just chain cast shadow power to heal itself.. or wizard with extra 1.5% life steal from skill, which is far superior to horrify armor bonus with cooldown. Fact is wd is most limited class when it comes to dealing with reflect damage, fact.
I provided numbers, examples, you just refuse to read, just come up with some other unrelated example.

[WakaDoDo]

I've too picked up frightening aspect, bad medicine(instead of spirit vessel) and it together with silly 350LoH does make quite the difference. I can now bear sometimes, instead of never.

@Hasansabbat

Quote

I could spam bears with slam dance and 1 stack soul harvest and didn't die a single time.

Spam as in one continuous barrage from full mana to zero? How much does this entire burst do to your HP?

Huminator, on 08 November 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

You have all the tools you need to overcome reflect damage.

Honestly Huminator, just read the second paragraph of the OP already.
No one believes RD is unbeatable, we're saying its hard to deal with with the classic bear style. We want to figure out how to make that build easier because we believe it could be very effective at the higher MPs.

Edited by WakaDoDo, 08 November 2012 - 02:56 PM.

[Huminator]

aerialus, on 08 November 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

Huminator, on 08 November 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

You have all the tools you need to overcome reflect damage. 100% armor from horify, spiritwalk. I dont see the issue. If you have such a huge problem not being able to do everything with ease... Spec zombie dog, sacrifice.

The spec is all about saccing zombie dogs, so first you need to remvoe the cooldown on summon zombie dogs, which is easily done with helm, ring and offhand... And tada your immortal.. You have 4 zombie dogs, each doing 275% weapon in 12 yards aoe. 4x275= 1100% weapon dmg, you chose the heal rune on sacrfice and tada.. You can spam summon and sac which heals you for 25500 everytime..

How many classes have a 1100% weapon dmg in 12 yards aoe with a 25500hp self heal with no cooldown?? And basicly no mana cost either. Since you will be at 100% mana all the time..

Your posibilities are endless, all you need is to open your eyes.

I don't know why you bring this silly build. It is old, known, and there it kills much slower than several other specs, including bears. Oh and you need to pay for very specific and expensive gear (ring) to reduce cooldown to zero.
Point is if you compare it to other classes, they have much better ways dealing with reflect, and they are not restricted to some gimmky cooldown reduction build, or using weak skills not to instagib themselves vs reflect. Horrify has cooldown, and you still need very high defensive stats to even stop losing health (and life steal weapon), While for example dh needs about half of these stats, no life steal, just chain cast shadow power to heal itself.. or wizard with extra 1.5% life steal from skill, which is far superior to horrify armor bonus with cooldown. Fact is wd is most limited class when it comes to dealing with reflect damage, fact.
I provided numbers, examples, you just refuse to read, just come up with some other unrelated example.

If you mean, 1100% weapon dmg in 12 yards aoe, with a 25500 heal with no cooldown is weak.. You sir are out of reach... Im now confident your problems is not various affixes,, but rather a problem placed around 30 in front of your keyboard.

http://eu.battle.net...YUTQ!dhT!aYZaab and correct gearing = win and easy mode win.

Edited by Huminator, 08 November 2012 - 03:09 PM.

[Bilge]

I posted earlier in this thread saying reflect needed adjustment, but now I'm not so sure.  I'm having no issues now with reflect as high as mp7.  Using a weapon with leech, I'm just spamming bears for 3sec during SW, then 8 more sec during horrify / frightening aspect, with the jungle fortitude passive.  By thn I'm almost ready to SW again.  Occasionally I need a potion while spamming bears during horrify, but if my health does drop at this point, it does so slowly giving me time to stop without putting myself in danger if potion is on CD or whatever.  I leech any lost health back during the next SW.

[Beasty30]

Huminator, on 08 November 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

If you mean, 1100% weapon dmg in 12 yards aoe, with a 25500 heal with no cooldown is weak.. You sir are out of reach... Im now confident your problems is not various affixes,, but rather a problem placed around 30 in front of your keyboard.

http://eu.battle.net...YUTQ!dhT!aYZaab and correct gearing = win and easy mode win.

Problem with people like you is, you have no idea how it plays actually. Its really really bad for farming and its only viable for bosses or in party. Even then there are tons of specs that are much better...

I tested it tons with almost perfect gear. Its not good. 1100% weapondamage?? It crits for 1/3 of what my bears crit with worse range and close to no area damage..

Edited by Beasty30, 08 November 2012 - 03:44 PM.

[Hasansabbat]

WakaDoDo, on 08 November 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

I've too picked up frightening aspect, bad medicine(instead of spirit vessel) and it together with silly 350LoH does make quite the difference. I can now bear sometimes, instead of never.

@Hasansabbat

Quote

I could spam bears with slam dance and 1 stack soul harvest and didn't die a single time.

Spam as in one continuous barrage from full mana to zero? How much does this entire burst do to your HP?

Well as I have mentioned it doesn't do that much on MP8 party with mantra of healing. I have around 42.3k hp and as i recall I just loose max %20-%25 between spirit walk and I can easily get back the health i loose by using pots or life steal when using spirit walk. Can’t post gear link here but you can see it on the above post of Icyinsanity or from hasansabbah#2914. This build not only helps you on reflects but all the other stuff like molten etc. Btw on farm mode (MP7/8) I just replace jungle fortitude to spiritual attunement or to grave injustice depending on the party.

[Emberos]

Huminator, on 08 November 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

Spec zombie dog, sacrifice.

The spec is all about saccing zombie dogs, so first you need to remvoe the cooldown on summon zombie dogs, which is easily done with helm, ring and offhand... And tada your immortal.. You have 4 zombie dogs, each doing 275% weapon in 12 yards aoe. 4x275= 1100% weapon dmg, you chose the heal rune on sacrfice and tada.. You can spam summon and sac which heals you for 25500 everytime..

Huminator, on 08 November 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

If you mean, 1100% weapon dmg in 12 yards aoe, with a 25500 heal with no cooldown is weak.. You sir are out of reach... Im now confident your problems is not various affixes,, but rather a problem placed around 30 in front of your keyboard.

There is a problem in front of a keyboard, you are correct.  It's just in front of yours, not Aerialus.  Tada!

[Moetsukiru]

Beasty30, on 08 November 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

Huminator, on 08 November 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

If you mean, 1100% weapon dmg in 12 yards aoe, with a 25500 heal with no cooldown is weak.. You sir are out of reach... Im now confident your problems is not various affixes,, but rather a problem placed around 30 in front of your keyboard.

http://eu.battle.net...YUTQ!dhT!aYZaab and correct gearing = win and easy mode win.

Problem with people like you is, you have no idea how it plays actually. Its really really bad for farming and its only viable for bosses or in party. Even then there are tons of specs that are much better...

I tested it tons with almost perfect gear. Its not good. 1100% weapondamage?? It crits for 1/3 of what my bears crit with worse range and close to no area damage..

That's because not all 4 explosions will EVER hit the same target (or HARDLY ever).  Really it's just 275% weapon damage.

[Huminator]

Really, your comments says you havent tried it out at all, you have proberly been running around with a fews cooldown. You can pretty much have you spirit walk without cooldown and blow up pack of trash after pack after pack... And under pretty much none stop spirit walk, and not having to aim and channel bears. Its a hell of alot faster. But then again if the Witch Doctor pilot is busy drooling irl, obvious its not good.

[xaimx]

@OP Have you tried the health link zombie dogs? I have used them and I can feel the damage mitigation they provide. Not that its a lot, but with them, my LS, and some decent defensive stats RD isn't that bad for me.

Of course, I haven't dumped much cash into my WD like I have my barb so I really don't know how it would be with your insane damage, but just thought I'd suggest it.

[aerialus]

Yeah health link dogs provide 10% dr and it works just like dr from bad medicine or jungle fortitude. If you stack all dr passives for 45% combined dr, that lowers amount of defensive stats needed significantly, to make life leech compensate for reflect.
As I said before, ended up with setup horrify, 4k base armor, 800-900 physical resist and bad medicine, with 3.00 life steal barely losing health (but not healing which can be tricky vs some fast ranged elites, you can't easily avoid taking damage from).
It is basically pure stat check, that sets bar pretty high for wd.

Edited by aerialus, 09 November 2012 - 12:25 AM.

[Hasansabbat]

aerialus, on 09 November 2012 - 12:25 AM, said:

Yeah health link dogs provide 10% dr and it works just like dr from bad medicine or jungle fortitude. If you stack all dr passives for 45% combined dr, that lowers amount of defensive stats needed significantly, to make life leech compensate for reflect.
As I said before, ended up with setup horrify, 4k base armor, 800-900 physical resist and bad medicine, with 3.00 life steal barely losing health (but not healing which can be tricky vs some fast ranged elites, you can't easily avoid taking damage from).
It is basically pure stat check, that sets bar pretty high for wd.

Health link dogs are is like a 4th passive which i think is pretty op. I always get them regardless of party setup and fix other talents according to party. If you have good gear Health Link Dogs+Jungle Fortitude provides almost invulnerability to a WD.

[aerialus]

Some people who like tanky dogs are not fans of that rune though, as if you take lot of damage, dogs take too. They die  lot easier than other runes, if you are taking damage.

[Hasansabbat]

I do regular farming on MP7-8, and I don't use jungle fortitude. My dogs die sometimes but I never remember that I had them on cooldown for recasting. I also think any other rune for the dogs are kinda waste they don't have any benefits nor they have any dmg output.
Well after this much info you guys just gotta test it for yourselves.

[Laureli]

1. SW
2. Spam bears
3. Use Rain of Toads (requires life leech and life on hit, yes)
4. Always topped at full health
= Win

Can't see any problem with reflect packs, I laugh when I see that affix.