32 replies to this topic

[Stephenk291]

Keep in mind, if you've got 300MF you've got plenty, as you level in paragon you'll find that you can lower your MP level to achieve faster clears.  I was farming MP7-8 but I've jumped down to doing MP5 for faster clears and as I continue to level I'll keep lowering it.  Eventually to just doing MP1.

Diminishing returns do exist so having too much MF can be a bad thing.  Faster clears = more loot = more chances for great items.

[GalZohar]

You're looking at it wrong. More MF is always better, but you have to factor in how much slower you're clearing as you increase MP and if it's really worth it to increase or not. If you're killing normal monsters, it mostly isn't worth increasing MP at all regardless. If you're skipping them, then at high DPS you might get a small benefit from increasing MP. All backed up by running the numbers behind everything, so in the end if you really want to be efficient you gotta run the numbers and see what you get, and obviously do a lot of tests so you can put in the correct values in your calculations. If you don't do that, don't expect to be even half as efficient as someone who does.

Edited by GalZohar, 05 November 2012 - 03:35 PM.

[Stephenk291]

GalZohar, on 05 November 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

You're looking at it wrong. More MF is always better, but you have to factor in how much slower you're clearing as you increase MP and if it's really worth it to increase or not. If you're killing normal monsters, it mostly isn't worth increasing MP at all regardless. If you're skipping them, then at high DPS you might get a small benefit from increasing MP. All backed up by running the numbers behind everything, so in the end if you really want to be efficient you gotta run the numbers and see what you get, and obviously do a lot of tests so you can put in the correct values in your calculations. If you don't do that, don't expect to be even half as efficient as someone who does.

actually more MF is not always better..but I'm not going to explain a concept that has been around since D2. Once you've hit 300MF you don't need to raise your MP to keep going higher to result in slower clears. But again I'm not going to write a page about diminishing returns and MF calculations.

[maka]

Stephenk291, on 05 November 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

GalZohar, on 05 November 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

You're looking at it wrong. More MF is always better, but you have to factor in how much slower you're clearing as you increase MP and if it's really worth it to increase or not. If you're killing normal monsters, it mostly isn't worth increasing MP at all regardless. If you're skipping them, then at high DPS you might get a small benefit from increasing MP. All backed up by running the numbers behind everything, so in the end if you really want to be efficient you gotta run the numbers and see what you get, and obviously do a lot of tests so you can put in the correct values in your calculations. If you don't do that, don't expect to be even half as efficient as someone who does.

actually more MF is not always better..but I'm not going to explain a concept that has been around since D2. Once you've hit 300MF you don't need to raise your MP to keep going higher to result in slower clears. But again I'm not going to write a page about diminishing returns and MF calculations.

I don't think you understand what he meant.
More MF is ALWAYS better. What MIGHT make it not worth it is what you have to give up in order to get more MF.
If you don't have to give up anything, how and when is having more MF a bad thing?

[GalZohar]

MF from monster power can go above the 300% MF cap. The cap is only for paragon MF plus gear MF. You then add the NV and MP MF on top of your MF with no cap at all.

Yes, the more MF you have the less useful it is to get more MF compared to getting other stats, but it's always useful to have more MF. You just have to sit down and do the math to see what is worth getting and what isn't.

[Stephenk291]

maka, on 05 November 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

Stephenk291, on 05 November 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

GalZohar, on 05 November 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

You're looking at it wrong. More MF is always better, but you have to factor in how much slower you're clearing as you increase MP and if it's really worth it to increase or not. If you're killing normal monsters, it mostly isn't worth increasing MP at all regardless. If you're skipping them, then at high DPS you might get a small benefit from increasing MP. All backed up by running the numbers behind everything, so in the end if you really want to be efficient you gotta run the numbers and see what you get, and obviously do a lot of tests so you can put in the correct values in your calculations. If you don't do that, don't expect to be even half as efficient as someone who does.

actually more MF is not always better..but I'm not going to explain a concept that has been around since D2. Once you've hit 300MF you don't need to raise your MP to keep going higher to result in slower clears. But again I'm not going to write a page about diminishing returns and MF calculations.

I don't think you understand what he meant.
More MF is ALWAYS better. What MIGHT make it not worth it is what you have to give up in order to get more MF.
If you don't have to give up anything, how and when is having more MF a bad thing?

No, I fully understood what he meant.  More MF is better to a point, however after 300% its a sharp drop off in terms of how much actual .001%'s your gaining at a legendary versus wasting more time due to the larger hp pools in higher MP levels to reach that mf level(assuming your going over 300%) Like I've said the higher paragon level you become the less attractive higher MP levels become.

[GalZohar]

Sorry, but there aren't any sharp drop offs anywhere. 400% MF (after NV MP etc) means you will get 1.25 times the loot per kill compared to 300% MF, and 300% MF will get you 1.33 times the loot per kill compared to 200% MF, while 500% MF will give you 1.2 times the loot per kill compared to 400%. I don't see where you find any kind of "sharp drop off" anywhere in those numbers.

The only "sharp drop off" in terms of loot/hour is when you try to increase your MF by increasing MP, which makes your loot/hour often go down because 25% MF is not usually not enough to make up for multiplying monster HP by 1.5. But that's really more about the extreme HP increase monsters get at higher MP, rather than the way MF scales.

Bottom line is there is no magic to the 300%, and I don't see where you are coming up with this number. The only magical thing about 300% is that it is the max MF you can have from paragon levels plus gear, and any MF gear taking you beyond 300% before NV and MP is 100% wasted.

Edited by GalZohar, 05 November 2012 - 11:49 PM.

[rusted_plastic]

I'd like to add, that with higher MP you also get a bonus i terms of extra item drop per mob (1%chance on MP1 to 100% in MP10). So even though you're farming slower you're getting some extra drops.

[Kapaya]

GalZohar, on 05 November 2012 - 02:26 AM, said:

Doesn't sound like a very efficient build Kioller...

You serious? Even without wrath of the berserker that build plows though mp0 like you're cutting through butter. Only thing I'd change in that is probably the fact of addin wrath of the berserker and swaping out overpower.

[GalZohar]

Kapaya, on 06 November 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

You serious? Even without wrath of the berserker that build plows though mp0 like you're cutting through butter. Only thing I'd change in that is probably the fact of addin wrath of the berserker and swaping out overpower.

A lot of builds can plow through MP0, especially with the gear available nowadays. It doesn't mean they are efficient. If another build farms few times faster than you with same amount of gold invested in gear, your build is not efficient even if you never ever die and can kill everything in 1 hit. There is a big difference between "viable"/"can kill"/"can kill fast" and "efficient". Especially in Diablo 3, where even killing fast is easy, but still doesn't mean you're clearing the whole run fast.

Edited by GalZohar, 07 November 2012 - 12:05 AM.

[Bearbarian]

Kapaya, on 06 November 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

GalZohar, on 05 November 2012 - 02:26 AM, said:

Doesn't sound like a very efficient build Kioller...

You serious? Even without wrath of the berserker that build plows though mp0 like you're cutting through butter. Only thing I'd change in that is probably the fact of addin wrath of the berserker and swaping out overpower.

I'd swap out Ground Stomp for Wrath, or maybe something else.  I tried it, its a pretty fun build.  I'd have to time myself to figure out if it's actually making me more efficient or not though.

[benane]

yesterday I switched to alkaizer runs and it was amaizing, did 2,5 levels in 90min or so. I'm currently running at MP1 and I want to farm paragon xp and items, and i stop by the keywarden after each run.

so here my questions:

should I switch to MP0 for faster clears? I'm oneshotting white monsters already

how do i get over the fear, that every mob could drop a legendary and always running back to check XD

also, should i get some boots with 12% MS? Lacunis are to expensive for me, as are ice climbers/firewalkers. I would just by some cheap ones for the time beeing.

thanks a bunch

eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/benane-2404/hero/3747560

[GalZohar]

Legendaries make a sound and show on your map. Rares aren't really too worthy of picking up anyway. So it's not a real problem.

I find the key warden a waste of time if you can do him at higher MP later. The area he's in is just not too efficient for xp farming and his chance to drop a key is too low.

MP0 is generally better than MP1, unless you never have to go back to kill even the biggest white monsters. Not having to go back to kill scorpions or spear throwers is not enough.

24% movement speed is a must, practically regardless of how many stats you sacrifice to get it. If something with X stats is too expensive for you, get it with less stats, but don't give up on the movement speed.


Tyrael's is more of a rich man's thing, to allow you to use lacuni and ice climbers for maximum stats, assuming you can make up for the HP deficit elsewhere using other very expensive items. Otherwise, you want your chest piece to have a lot of vit and get the movement speed from your boots and lacuni.

Edited by GalZohar, 08 November 2012 - 12:31 PM.