44 replies to this topic

[Morphos]

This is a post 1.03 update I made to a previous post on this topic, which can be found here: http://www.diablofan...092#entry914092

Since making that post I've learned that the numbers I listed there were actually only the minimum damage per hit for the mobs, and that all mobs have a damage range. Apparently the way it works is that there is a base damage for all mobs of the same level, and then individual mobs get modifiers to the base damage and spread. So, for example, the base damage for lvl 63 mobs pre-patch was 113k, but the heavy hitting mobs such as phase beasts have a 1.5x modifier and 0.5x spread modifier so they hit for 170-226k.  This information is taken from a post found here: http://www.reddit.co..._36_mlvl_63_44/

Therefore, my original post was inaccurate in that the numbers I provided were for the minimum damage of the mobs and did not take into account their damage spread.

However, now we know the base damage for lvl 63 mobs to be 63,615 after the patch 1.0.3 nerf. Therefore, phasebeasts and the other hardest hitting mobs (besides the avoidable melee attacks like mallet lords and the big skeleton axe windup hit) will now have a damage range of 95,423 - 127,230. Given that topend damage of 127k, you now need just over 94k EHP in order to always get a full 35% resist out of force armor.

This does not include any additional modifier that probably exists for champions/elites though. I am trying to find out what that modifier is and when I do I'll update this post with it.

EDIT: Based on this post: http://www.reddit.co...2qfvn?context=3 there is a report that champion/elite mobs do 25% more damage than their normal counterparts. I will try to confirm this in-game. If anybody else has any data on that, it would be great. If that is the case, you would need 117.5k EHP to get a full resist from an elite phasebeast / similarly hard hitting mob.

Edited by Morphos, 19 June 2012 - 09:34 PM.

[InverseLogic]

Isn't it far better to just go for % resist rune now?

[Gnarf]

i know its off topic but do i smell almost a 50% nerf in damage???

[Wingerie]

Gnarf, on 19 June 2012 - 09:29 PM, said:

i know its off topic but do i smell almost a 50% nerf in damage???

It's 30-40.

[Morphos]

InverseLogic, on 19 June 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

Isn't it far better to just go for % resist rune now?

No, I don't believe so. I outlined my reasoning for this here: http://www.diablofan...010#entry925010

At the time I made that posts I had no idea how hard the nerf was going to be, but I think the points I made there still hold true. Given that the topend damage for phasebeasts is now 127k, you would need 363k EHP to take 35% of your health in damage without force armor. If the 25% modifier for elites is correct, you would need 453k EHP to take hits of 35% of your life without force armor. This is compared to 94k/117.5k, so about 3.85 times as much EHP just to get on equal footing with force armor.

For comparison thats the difference between 26.5k HP, 4000 armor, and 300 resists (117.5k EHP) vs 34.6k HP, 6000 armor and 1100 (453k EHP!) resists. And thats just to get back to being EQUAL to force armor, obviously you would need more to exceed it, and a lot more to really notice a difference.

Edited by Morphos, 19 June 2012 - 09:46 PM.

[Draesh]

For reference, how much damage does mobs in act 1 do?

[Morphos]

Draesh, on 19 June 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

For reference, how much damage does mobs in act 1 do?

This is a repost from here, so credit to that original author on reddit: http://www.reddit.co...l_63_44/c52p2qi

Quote

Another way of looking at the numbers is that Act 2+ was nerfed by ~36% and Act 3/4 was nerfed by an additional ~12% (relatively speaking).
Looking at the numbers for monster levels 60-63, we can see that damage output roughly doubles with each act past hell now:

• 60: 8869.7998046875
  
• 61: 18063
  
• 62: 33686
  
• 63: 63615

Previously, the numbers looked like:

• 60: 9278.6240234375
  
• 61: 18040.1328125
  
• 62: 52807.09375
  
• 63: 113486.9609375

Edited by Morphos, 19 June 2012 - 09:49 PM.

[Madwizz]

lvl 63 mobs are the ones in act 3 and 4? what about act 2 is it level 62?

Morphos, on 19 June 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

InverseLogic, on 19 June 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

Isn't it far better to just go for % resist rune now?

No, I don't believe so. I outlined my reasoning for this here: http://www.diablofan...010#entry925010

At the time I made that posts I had no idea how hard the nerf was going to be, but I think the points I made there still hold true. Given that the topend damage for phasebeasts is now 127k, you would need 363k EHP to take 35% of your health in damage without force armor. If the 25% modifier for elites is correct, you would need 453k EHP to take hits of 35% of your life without force armor. This is compared to 94k/117.5k, so about 3.85 times as much EHP just to get on equal footing with force armor.

For comparison thats the difference between 26.5k HP, 4000 armor, and 300 resists (117.5k EHP) vs 34.6k HP, 6000 armor and 1100 (453k EHP!) resists. And thats just to get back to being EQUAL to force armor, obviously you would need more to exceed it, and a lot more to really notice a difference.

thats true it may still be better to go with force armor, but now the prismatic armor is not such a crazy idea, given that you can get things like string of ears and use blur passive, that would give u good jump on EHP at least against melee, then u can maybe get a stormshield to help against elites and stack on some block to help mitigate the damage you take, it might actually work. Sure you would have to give up on things like glass cannon and an off hand source, but it just goes to show it is now possible to live without force armor(although your dps will still suck unfortunately).

[InverseLogic]

Morphos, on 19 June 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

InverseLogic, on 19 June 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

Isn't it far better to just go for % resist rune now?

No, I don't believe so. I outlined my reasoning for this here: http://www.diablofan...010#entry925010

At the time I made that posts I had no idea how hard the nerf was going to be, but I think the points I made there still hold true. Given that the topend damage for phasebeasts is now 127k, you would need 363k EHP to take 35% of your health in damage without force armor. If the 25% modifier for elites is correct, you would need 453k EHP to take hits of 35% of your life without force armor. This is compared to 94k/117.5k, so about 3.85 times as much EHP just to get on equal footing with force armor.

For comparison thats the difference between 26.5k HP, 4000 armor, and 300 resists (117.5k EHP) vs 34.6k HP, 6000 armor and 1100 (453k EHP!) resists. And thats just to get back to being EQUAL to force armor, obviously you would need more to exceed it, and a lot more to really notice a difference.

None of this takes into account that the hits you actually do take a lot and kill you (dots, shit on the ground, mortar, reflect damage, vortex into molten/poison etc.) aren't usually affected by force armor, more so now compared to pre-patch. Now I think it is appropriate to discuss whether it is ok to take a bit more than 35% from the occasional big hits but instead be more efficient throughout the act with less downtime/death etc...
PS: The thing with gearing towards the other rune is that you eventually can work on freeing up the skill slot completely.

Edited by InverseLogic, 19 June 2012 - 11:09 PM.

[Skyle]

very nice piece of information, but if i may.. How do you calculate the EHP? Im on my phone atm and using the search function doesnt work that well, thanks in advance.


edit: found the calc now, disregard my post (on my regular computer)

Edited by Skyle, 20 June 2012 - 08:00 AM.

[Simca]

Also, they're now listing Oppressor's charge hitting twice as a bug and not intended behavior in their "1.0.3 Known Issues" sticky.

Thank god for that - wasn't fun taking 140k hits back to back (though I imagine it is quite easy now either way).

[InverseLogic]

Dropped force armor today. Will never look back. Those axe skeletons in act 3 for instance hit me for about 30% of my hp with prismatic. Reflect damage, poison or molten are fairly harmless now instead.

I run 38k hp, about 500 average resist before prismatic, 42k dps (2hander, no IAS). Also droped enchanter for hp regen of templar, it is so much more effective now since mobs hit for less and the regen kicks in.

Edited by InverseLogic, 20 June 2012 - 10:28 AM.

[thebes]

How have you guys handled reflect mobs? Even act2 elites willl drain my HP pool quickly just attacking with blizzard. Grant it I've only partied since the update so far.  I guess I just need more res all.  

Off the top of my head stats are:
23k HP
315-380 resist?
4500 armor (or more)
57k damage (37% crit chance and 290% dmg...i think 2008 INT)
Down to 1.4 or 1.5 APS depending on the ring

Extras: 8500 health globes....very small amount of HP regen/LoH and 12% move speed.

I have no res all on shoulder or bracers, so I could pick up 100-120 there.  If I were to grab more res all to get mr in the 400s, would I be OK to drop VIT if I use prismatic to get even higher? Or would keeping force armor be the way to go.

Also, I've been using blizzard/arcane hydra build for slowing and blowimg up mobs in ac3/ponies for a while.

Edited by thebes, 20 June 2012 - 01:57 PM.

[Morphos]

InverseLogic, on 20 June 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

Dropped force armor today. Will never look back. Those axe skeletons in act 3 for instance hit me for about 30% of my hp with prismatic. Reflect damage, poison or molten are fairly harmless now instead.

I run 38k hp, about 500 average resist before prismatic, 42k dps (2hander, no IAS). Also droped enchanter for hp regen of templar, it is so much more effective now since mobs hit for less and the regen kicks in.

I will have to try this. The other thing my post doesn't take in to account is acts 1/2. Since it appears that the patch nerfed act 3, it might be more viable to run acts 1 or 2 at this point anyways and prismatic armor will be better there.

[Morphos]

thebes, on 20 June 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

How have you guys handled reflect mobs? Even act2 elites willl drain my HP pool quickly just attacking with blizzard. Grant it I've only partied since the update so far.  I guess I just need more res all.  

The easiest way to handle a reflect damage mob is to buy an amulet with 500-600+ Life on hit and just swap it on against reflect damage champ packs.

[Rioo]

Morphos, on 19 June 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

InverseLogic, on 19 June 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

Isn't it far better to just go for % resist rune now?

No, I don't believe so. I outlined my reasoning for this here: http://www.diablofan...010#entry925010

At the time I made that posts I had no idea how hard the nerf was going to be, but I think the points I made there still hold true. Given that the topend damage for phasebeasts is now 127k, you would need 363k EHP to take 35% of your health in damage without force armor. If the 25% modifier for elites is correct, you would need 453k EHP to take hits of 35% of your life without force armor. This is compared to 94k/117.5k, so about 3.85 times as much EHP just to get on equal footing with force armor.

For comparison thats the difference between 26.5k HP, 4000 armor, and 300 resists (117.5k EHP) vs 34.6k HP, 6000 armor and 1100 (453k EHP!) resists. And thats just to get back to being EQUAL to force armor, obviously you would need more to exceed it, and a lot more to really notice a difference.

That is true, but at the same time with the prismatic rune you can take single big hits without getting one-shot. I'll still use Force Armor because I was already pretty close to not being able to get one-shot by anything pre-nerf, but if you're having troubles with say Diablo's fireball one-shotting you Prismatic can help you to just about survive it. So you go from being 3-shot by 80% of all attacks and 1-shot by 20% to being 2-shot by 50% and 3- to 5-shot by 50%. Numbers are ofc not real, just wanted to give an idea of where I'm going.

[Smoort]

So how much health / resist we need now for the minimum? 30k and 200res?

[thebes]

Yeah that's what i was thinkinh. Have some LOH handy if needed. I have a +688 1H already just sittin in stash, so that with amulet should probably be enough. Thanks for the tip, will definitely be trying it.

My only beef is that blizzard doesn't give you LoH on every single tick...but the mobs reflect every single tick. I would think it should go both ways. Make the reflect amunt equal to the possible loh hit  gain. But ill just not use blizzard on them if i'm duoing i guess

Edited by thebes, 20 June 2012 - 03:19 PM.

[Madwizz]

the way mobs are hitting now people could prolly go as low on HP as they can while going for max resists/armor/life regeneration and would still have enough EHP to hold the fort, they would be virtually unbeatable with like 2k life regeneration. It would be like the force armor before nerf, but in this case u wouldnt die to poison/fire whatever cuz u would have super high resists and armor while still having low life with high regeneration. Ofc this would be quite expensive though I suppose.

edit: doing some messing with the EHP calculator and considering that you now need like 90kEHP to make force armor work I realize you would need something like 280 vita(for 10k HP thats including ur 127 vita), some 3300 armor(no buffs/debuffs), and 650 All res(no buffs debuffs). All that with enchantress companion, though you would need quite a bit of life regeneration on top of that to make it cheesy.

Edited by Madwizz, 20 June 2012 - 05:23 PM.

[Morphos]

I am trying to figure out the best way to handle this, because with the increased repair costs it has been pretty rough.

One route is prismatic armor and more EHP, but to get up to a reasonable EHP (~400ish) I would have to cut my dps down to 50% or even 33% of its current level.

The second alternative is getting some healing sources, which I think is what I am going to try, along with using an additional defensive skill. Using the templar and galvanizing ward automatically gives you about 500 life regen. If you can get another 500 from gear without giving much up and get to 1k life regen I think that will really make a big difference. Maybe a bit of life on hit as well. Then using illusionist and maybe even diamond skin on top of teleport and you've got a pretty survivable build without gimping your dps too bad.

Not sure if thats the best route or not but I'm thinking its worth a try.