40 replies to this topic

[Akuma Seijin]

Ok so I didn't read much of the thread but I have a (maybe) solution? Well In the Sin Wars, Inarius posed as a human...who says Tyrael couldn't do the same?

[Eid_ot_emit]

He didn't become human, just mortal. Its [frustratingly] unexplained why he looks human (seriously, one dialogue thread is all that needed), but he wasn't human. He was simply a mortal angel. When people are refering to him as "one of us," it is far more likely that they just mean mortal.

Were he actually Nephalem, it would have been clearly stated as such. In fact, he is still referred to as an angel several times and when you reach heaven Imperius referrers to YOU as nephalem, and separates Tyrael from these statements.

[Mormolyce]

Mmm, well I assumed it was part and parcel of being banished to Sanctuary. Like maybe a mortal form imprisons him there. I mean, it had to be something corporeal because he doesn't seem to normally have a body, and I guess they went with human because Archangel Tyrael the Fetish Shaman might've been a bit hard to take seriously. Note that at the end he reassumes his Angelic duties but "as a mortal", whatever that means.

SnowBro191, on 13 May 2012 - 12:43 AM, said:

I think the angels look an awful lot like humans just with giant glowy wings. I mean take off those wings and how would you tell them apart?

You sure? There doesn't actually seem to be anything inside those hoods and armour...

[Mormolyce]

Eid_ot_emit, on 23 May 2012 - 06:12 AM, said:

Were he actually Nephalem, it would have been clearly stated as such. In fact, he is still referred to as an angel several times and when you reach heaven Imperius referrers to YOU as nephalem, and separates Tyrael from these statements.

Also, presumably if he were Nephalem he would also have no "fate" as Ithereal says and would be free to kill Diablo himself.

[Eid_ot_emit]

My real question is, now that Tyreal is mortal, what happens to Justice, or Wisdom, should he die?

From what I can gather and speculate, before when he wou;ld "die" he would eventually reform and reemerge fromt he Crystal Arch. With the removal of his wings, he separated his spirit (for lack of a better descriptor) fromt he CA and made it so that if he dies now, he will not reform and reemerge, thus rendering him mortal.

It seems like a pretty big deal that Justice, and now Wisdom, may be lost to the Heavens should he die. Pretty big risks to take. Will there be a new aspect of Justice? Does this new aspect come when Tyrael dies, or did he start to form the moment Tyrael separated himself fromt eh CA? How did Tyrael become the aspect of Wisdom (and I mean more so beyond the fact that when you look at it, he wasn't very wise at all)? They make it pretty clear that the archangles are really physical representations of what they represent, and in some way affect that concepts ability to exist and be felt (particularly by other angels). So how then could could Tyrael completely change what he was? It would make sense if at the end of the game instead of staying mortal, he had to become re-attuned to the CA to join the Council again, only this time he attuned to Wisdom rather than Justice; but instead we're left with what is him ostensibly just deciding to be Wisdom.

I find the entire Tyrael plot line to be the worst plot line, and biggest flaw, in Diablo 3. It isn't conceptually that abysmal, but its delivery is downright awful. I really hope these gaps in logic and story are explained and fleshed out in coming expansions. Doesn't have to be much, just some dialogue threads.

Edited by Eid_ot_emit, 27 May 2012 - 02:28 PM.

[Ranim]

Have any of you noticed that he looks like the man who followed the Dark Wanderer in the cutscenes in Diablo 2?

[Daemaro]

Just wanted to point out it never says he became a human or nephalem it just says he became mortal, so he can die.

[Pyrrhic]

Ranim, on 06 June 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

Have any of you noticed that he looks like the man who followed the Dark Wanderer in the cutscenes in Diablo 2?

Tyrael? You might want to watch those again, Marius (that guy) was balding and frail. Tyrael looks physically powerful, and his hands are probably the size of Marius' upper torso..

Eid_ot_emit, on 27 May 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

I find the entire Tyrael plot line to be the worst plot line, and biggest flaw, in Diablo 3. It isn't conceptually that abysmal, but its delivery is downright awful. I really hope these gaps in logic and story are explained and fleshed out in coming expansions. Doesn't have to be much, just some dialogue threads.

It's my belief that the Tyrael plot line will indeed be a key part of the future story. Prophecy of the End of Days starts with 'And at the End of Days, Wisdom shall be lost as Justice falls upon the world of men.' In-game lore makes it sound like Malthael has been missing for quite some time, while the prophecy sounds like what goes down happens recently.

Just so happens that Tyrael becomes mortal, abandons his Justice aspect for no reason and takes up, you guessed it, the role of Wisdom. (Evil cannot be stopped, we must destroy the soulstone to do so! Oh, the Nephalem beat down Diablo? Hurrah, Justice has been served! Wait, who smashed the soulstone? No one? What do you mean 'it fell'? Who in the Burning Hells thought that was a good idea? Oh well.)

What kicks off the prophecy, which Deckard Cain says is a warning about 'the ultimate invasion of our world by the Hells'? Wisdom being lost, which now has a mortal as its aspect. The same mortal that gave up Justice without anyone, that we know of, replacing it, leaving it to 'the world of men' to mete out future Justice against the Hells.

[Nacho_ijp]

The enchantress says in one of her dialogues that angels and demons don't have free will, that they only follow their "natures". Tyrael, by choosing not to be an angel he defied his own "nature" and hence changed it, making him mortal, but not necessarily human. In any case, demons, angels and nephalem all belong to a monistic universe (Anu) so everything shares the nature of everything else and the differences are merely aspects of reality reflected in their forms, not the intrinsic nature of beings. This means that if things can change that manifestation they would change their apparent nature thus becoming something else, in the case of Tyrael, a mortal (and possibly a human)

About him being Justice and dying, he could not be bound to ageing, so if he's not killed he would be mortal, but won't die of old age

Edited by Nacho_ijp, 06 June 2012 - 11:04 PM.

[Tzalix]

okrane, on 13 May 2012 - 11:18 AM, said:

Let me give you the explanation, blunt and simple. Diablo (lore, games, books and all that) is a franchise made for kids, teenagers and gaming adults. This means the people here are not very bright and are not expecting a logically sound masterpiece a la Dostoyevsky or Shakespeare or whatever other good story.
It's a franchise made for you to kill shit catering to the same kids that like Twilight, Harry Potter. You can get away with shit in order to make it feel "epic" and the player to feel "awesome and important". Whatever that means.

Your prejudices about teenagers and gaming adults makes you everything but "bright", I'm afraid...

And don't you dare mention neither Diablo nor Harry Potter in the same sentence as Twilight...

Edited by Tzalix, 19 June 2012 - 07:46 PM.

[Capitano666]

Choda, on 13 May 2012 - 12:35 AM, said:

So yeah, we see Tyrael willingly give up his place in Angiris council, and he falls down to Sanctuary becoming... human.

He never became human, he became mortal.
Mortal means he can die, nothing more. He is still an angel and, according to the closing cinematic, he remains mortal while he's back in heaven and he now stands as wisdom (instead of justice).

[Eldius]

As a member of the angelic host, and part of the Angiris Council no less, Tyrael was very limited in what he could do to aid mortals in the fight against the seven evils. By surrendering his rank as the Angel of Justice, and becoming a mortal himself (transubstantiation), he was finally able to act. Those actions also both protected him from Diablo's assault on the Crystal Arch, and made him subject to mortal emotions such as doubt. Taking up the mantle of Wisdom and becoming mortal, has put Tyrael in a position to be killed, thus initiating the Prophecy of the End of Days.

Edited by Eldius, 01 August 2012 - 05:32 PM.

[Christael]

Tyrael must back

[ZzEzZ]

Always glad when people look harder into the story and find things like this. Maybe the XPac will fix the plothole o.o

[Glowyrm]

What exactly do the novels say when mentioning there is "nothing" human about angels? Curious about that.

Here is how I rationalize it and to me it makes perfect sense.

When 2 beings mate, what they create is not entirely new. The offspring is part of each of them. This would mean that there must be human qualities within angels AND demons.

Strip away the righteousness and good from angels, or the malevolence and evil from demons, and underneath there is something human within them both.

So when I look at offspring, I know that whatever made them resembles them in some way, at some level. It's not a stretch at all in my mind for him to look human (although if he was CALLED human I would have a slight problem with that).

[Darcy_Maris]

Eldius, on 01 August 2012 - 05:30 PM, said:

As a member of the angelic host, and part of the Angiris Council no less, Tyrael was very limited in what he could do to aid mortals in the fight against the seven evils. By surrendering his rank as the Angel of Justice, and becoming a mortal himself (transubstantiation), he was finally able to act. Those actions also both protected him from Diablo's assault on the Crystal Arch, and made him subject to mortal emotions such as doubt. Taking up the mantle of Wisdom and becoming mortal, has put Tyrael in a position to be killed, thus initiating the Prophecy of the End of Days.

Exactly what you say bro. By shedding his angelic form (for the lack of a better word) he looses part of his angelic nature. His acts are both acts of wisdom and justice. On the one hand he cannot do nothing while the Nephalem are wronged for something they didn't do. On the other hand it was wise of him to act the way he did (reasons in the quote ^^).

@Glowyrm. Angels aren't made from intercourse but are born from the silver spire. It is the other way around. Humans have the quality of both, but angels aren't human.

And I personally love Tyreal's role in the plot !

[EVISCER8]

Pacotez, on 13 May 2012 - 03:58 AM, said:

he is a mortal
a mortal archangel
not a human
he still have his powers

^ This

Capitano666, on 01 August 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:

Choda, on 13 May 2012 - 12:35 AM, said:

So yeah, we see Tyrael willingly give up his place in Angiris council, and he falls down to Sanctuary becoming... human.

He never became human, he became mortal.
Mortal means he can die, nothing more. He is still an angel and, according to the closing cinematic, he remains mortal while he's back in heaven and he now stands as wisdom (instead of justice).

And This^

[diseasept]

Only thing i can say about Tyrael is that i hide my wallet everytime he's arround.

[maka]

Uhm....angels are supposed to be made of pure energy, not flesh and blood. If he is still and angel (albeit mortal), and not human, how come he has a human body?

[EVISCER8]

maka, on 21 November 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

Uhm....angels are supposed to be made of pure energy, not flesh and blood. If he is still and angel (albeit mortal), and not human, how come he has a human body?

I'd like to refer to Dogma to answer this one. If you haven't seen it, go watch it now. Great movie!!!