42 replies to this topic

[ClassicWafflez]

@sacridoc

I am not saying that GoTD GE "ticks" faster with a higher attack speed.

What I am trying to say is the the damage shown in the tooltip scales with attack speed.

I really really don't feel like uploading a video just to prove what I said. If you have beta access then go test it yourself.

With an attack speed of 1.7, Grouping Eels deals 43% weapon dps and it is reflected it the tooltip.

[z00tGRUNT]

Personally, I'm a proponent of One-hander + Mojo for the WD.  

The thing about 2-handers is that even when you're casting 'fire-and-forget' spells like Grasp of the Dead or Horrify, your cast animation is actually slower.  Your character is less responsive, and for my personal playstyle, I really dislike that feeling of sluggishness.

It makes it very hard to move while periodically shift+attacking with a particular skill (the cast animation takes so long to play out that it's not really more efficient than casting while standing still).

[sacridoc]

ClassicWafflez, on 14 April 2012 - 01:47 AM, said:

@sacridoc

I am not saying that GoTD GE "ticks" faster with a higher attack speed.

What I am trying to say is the the damage shown in the tooltip scales with attack speed.

I really really don't feel like uploading a video just to prove what I said. If you have beta access then go test it yourself.

With an attack speed of 1.7, Grouping Eels deals 43% weapon dps and it is reflected it the tooltip.

Hm... it might be something like this:

An increased attack speed increases your damage without changing the intervals.

So if you have a 1.0 attack speed/200 damage weapon and it does 20% weapon damage, it would be 40 damage/tick. But if your attack speed goes to 2.0/100 damage weapon, it'll say 40% weapon damage because the tooltip is not really expressing things the same way as with other skills. For most other dots/channeled spells, it's kind of already built in to how the spells works, they just don't tell you... it's supposed to be based off DPS.

GE is not in the Beta so it might be hard to test at this point, and I don't have the Beta anyways. But overall, if you have 2 weapons with the same DPS, even though the tooltip might say something different, your damage should stay the same even with a higher attack speed.

Edited by sacridoc, 14 April 2012 - 05:55 AM.

[ClassicWafflez]

Fuck it.
Believe whatever you like.

I really don't feel like going back and forth. GE was in the last patch and even now I can still mouse over it to see the stats.


Here is a post I made about it on bnet forums.
http://us.battle.net...opic/4366252647

Basically whenever I switched to a weapon that did less damage but had a higher atk speed, the damage in the tooltip would go up. An opposite effect occurred when I equipped a weapon that attacked slower but did much more damage. There was no effect when I removed gear that boosted intel or general damage (Wounding).

Edited by ClassicWafflez, 14 April 2012 - 12:22 PM.

[WNxManiacMan]

At first I was like "OMFG what a wall of text", but I must say it's very interesting reading

I expect class-specific weapons will be the best kind of weapon for that class. Would make sense stat-wise. I don't expect to find a 2-handed axe with +mana, +mana regeneration, +int and +% increased weapon damage to Dire Bats (Witch Doctor only). The last stat is just what I imagine Blizzard will do (theorycrafting). Those stats will come on Ceremonial Knives and on Mojos (not Dolls as you call them - that's just the first type of Mojo).

I think 2-handed weapons will be viable for Witch Doctors, but not optimal or best in slot (BiS).

[Horcsogg]

All these comments just messed with my head, I will be using 2 skills, 1 aoe, http://eu.battle.net...ve/acid-cloud

[Ruppgu]

WNxManiacMan, on 14 April 2012 - 01:48 PM, said:

At first I was like "OMFG what a wall of text", but I must say it's very interesting reading

I expect class-specific weapons will be the best kind of weapon for that class. Would make sense stat-wise. I don't expect to find a 2-handed axe with +mana, +mana regeneration, +int and +% increased weapon damage to Dire Bats (Witch Doctor only). The last stat is just what I imagine Blizzard will do (theorycrafting). Those stats will come on Ceremonial Knives and on Mojos (not Dolls as you call them - that's just the first type of Mojo).

I think 2-handed weapons will be viable for Witch Doctors, but not optimal or best in slot (BiS).

Generic 2-handers will include +WD skills... it just might be a bit more difficult to find. Those affixes aren't confined to WD only weapons, but I believe you can't get the other classes affixes on WD only items so they will be a bit harder to find on 2 handers.

We can look at the Blacksmith weapons for endgame and do a bit of theory crafting. I'm still not sure about the end game affix for mana regen (does anyone know?), but it has the +damage from offhands and the damage range of 1 handers vs 2 handers.
  
Exalted Fine Piercer
Rare Dagger
177.8 Damage Per Second
59–178 Damage
1.50 Attacks per Second   
+
Exalted Fine Unspeakable Thing
+(24-72)–(25-265) Damage

which would make the dagger do
107-323 damage (I used +48-145)
A best rolled offhand would give you 131-443 damage for the dagger

VS

Exalted Fine Slag Hammer
Rare Two-Handed Mace
518.4 Damage Per Second
551–601 Damage
0.90 Attacks per Second


That's not even close damage wise but I wonder if that data is incorrect. I tried to use the data from the blacksmith recipes because I figured they'd be fairly accurate. I know the item database is outdated and incomplete. It seems a bit odd that the dps is that much lower. Even when you add in the offhand, it's about 100dps below the 2 hander (but you will get 5 magic affixes that might help even the score).

@horc... I believe corpse bomb and hungry bats will do more damage with a 2  hander since they're direct damage. It's hard to say at this point if the other stats you'll get from the offhand will be enough to make up for it... imo the answer is no based on the information we have at this time.

Edited by Ruppgu, 14 April 2012 - 03:42 PM.

[WasiKaBooM]

I really hope Blizz gets this stuff balanced out, because i want to be able to use my 1h + offhand without losing too much power, because the offhands for Witch Doctor look amazing, and are a big part of why i will play one at release. Who wouldn't want to run around with a dead chicken or a bundle of snakes in the offhand?

[WNxManiacMan]

Ruppgu, on 14 April 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

WNxManiacMan, on 14 April 2012 - 01:48 PM, said:

I don't expect to find a 2-handed axe with +mana, +mana regeneration, +int and +% increased weapon damage to Dire Bats (Witch Doctor only).

Generic 2-handers will include +WD skills... it just might be a bit more difficult to find. Those affixes aren't confined to WD only weapons, but I believe you can't get the other classes affixes on WD only items so they will be a bit harder to find on 2 handers.

OK didn't know that. Sounds a bit illogical to me, but that's because I'm too used to WoW and D2 itemization. Would really help if I had D3 beta access...

WasiKaBooM, on 14 April 2012 - 03:55 PM, said:

I really hope Blizz gets this stuff balanced out, because i want to be able to use my 1h + offhand without losing too much power, because the offhands for Witch Doctor look amazing, and are a big part of why i will play one at release. Who wouldn't want to run around with a dead chicken or a bundle of snakes in the offhand?

Maybe it already is balanced out. Who are we to tell the game is imbalanced when it's not out yet? If there isn't much of a difference In The End, I'll definitely run around with a dead chicken.

Grammatical error included because I love Linkin Park

[IceD]

il just take a 2 handed weapon with my barb....just because it looks awesome^^

[sacridoc]

ClassicWafflez, on 14 April 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

Fuck it.
Believe whatever you like.

I really don't feel like going back and forth. GE was in the last patch and even now I can still mouse over it to see the stats.


Here is a post I made about it on bnet forums.
http://us.battle.net...opic/4366252647

Basically whenever I switched to a weapon that did less damage but had a higher atk speed, the damage in the tooltip would go up. An opposite effect occurred when I equipped a weapon that attacked slower but did much more damage. There was no effect when I removed gear that boosted intel or general damage (Wounding).

Calm down sir... lol

The point is that it doesn't matter what a tooltip says, it's the damage it does in the actual game that matters. Which is what I was asking you. I gave an explanation for why the tooltip would change. But if the damage changes over the full 8sec, then it may work differently than other dots, etc.

Feel Smart.

[WNxManiacMan]

CTRL+F "fuck"
Found 0 out of 0.

Speaking of 1-handed vs 2-handed... we've found out that 1-handed is worst in most cases, even with a Mojo with a lot of +damage. Does that make 1 handed + shield the worst combination ever? Cause you might actually need a shield to survive in Inferno, but it looks like the damage output will be low. Has someone tested this in the beta?

[sacridoc]

It's not guaranteed worse in most cases in my opinion, but we'll see. As for shields, you just get more survivability so it's just tradeoffs. But yeah, if you're using a shield it'll lower your DPS more than a 1H + OH, but that's the point because it's more of a tanking style.

The only conclusion you can really make about choices from this thread is that a 2H is better for WDs early in the game where survivability and mana isn't a huge issue, and there probably isn't enough item variance/stats to really make a 1H better. But as items get more stats on them, 1H + OH / 1H + Shield should match 2Hs overall. I still think that the best combination endgame for a WD would be a 1H + OH... maybe not in terms of raw damage but in terms of other stats I think it will be.

And honestly... I don't see a reason why any class should use a shield early in the game. Maybe it's needed in 4 person co-op for a tank though. I haven't seen much 4 person gameplay.

[0_Xero_0]

After reading through this, I want to affirm that my thoughts on this are correct, so @sacridoc or @Ruppgu, if you could chime in on my comment, I'd appreciate it.  So, for channeling spells only, a 2H weapon is almost always better (unless you have a very good OH with +dmg) because channeling spells incur mana costs which is dependent on attack speed but attack speed doesn't actually effect how often they tick right?  If, in theory, you had a 1H/OH and a 2H where the former combination has the same damage to the 2H weapon, but the 2H has a slower attack speed, a channeling spell like firebats (unruned) would cost less mana for the 2H but do the same amount of damage as the 1H/OH combo, right?  Sorry for the long sentences, but this is why I asked these questions, haha.

[sacridoc]

As I currently understand things, yes that's how it works. The same should be true for dots as well if my understanding is correct.

Your OH would have to makeup for this by having +dmg or +mana on it that equalizes things.

And if you think about it... the same is true for nuke spells as well. Take Dire Bats for example, if you have a 1.0 speed weapon, doing 100 damage (2H) and it costs 150 mana (and does 150% weapon damage), you'll be spending 150 mana/sec for 150 dmg/sec. If you have a weapon with a 2.0 speed that does 50 damage (1H) you'll be spending 300 mana/sec for 150 dmg/sec.

So truthfully... all spells cast by the player will cost more mana with a faster attack speed even if the dmg is the same.

The stats on an OH or Shield will have to make up for this in order for a 1H + OH/Shield to be equal to a 2H.

It seems very likely that early in the game, 2Hs will be better (for the WD).

Again, this applies to the WD mainly (and Wizard to a lesser extent) because they don't have generator spells that allow faster attack speeds to regain resource faster.

__

So to reiterate I guess...

Slower Weapons are always better if the DPS of two weapons is the same and your OH does not make the 1H better or equal to the 2H.

This of course ignores proc abilities like Fetish Sychophants, etc. And applies only to the Witch Doctor.

Edited by sacridoc, 15 April 2012 - 02:56 AM.

[0_Xero_0]

Ok, good.  That means I'm not off my rocker and followed this thread correctly, haha.  I'm sure some ridiculous dolls will be available in the full game.  I'm somewhat curious about legendary items and how they did the item system in this game.  Hopefully all of the legendaries are useful because there were some lackluster or worse legendaries in d2... I'm going to be wielding a boulder when I start playing.  It's bound to have the slowest attack speed of any weapon in the game and will make my WD stronger... then I'll have to find a bigger boulder...

[Ruppgu]

The slowest weapons from the database are currently the 2 handed maces btw.

[0_Xero_0]

That was a joke, son!  I know sarcasm doesn't translate well into text, but that was as blatant as putting a neon sign in my post -__-'

[Mysticjbyrd]

snowhammer, on 12 April 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

This might help you with your Channel question:

From: http://www.diablofan...-do-215-damage/

Official Blizzard Quote:

Hey guys,

The damage listed in channeled spells is the total damage the spell will do during one full cycle. For example, if you have a weapon that makes you hit once every two seconds, it would take two seconds for the channeled spell to do the full amount of damage listed.

I know this is a little confusing, but it makes sense in practice. Try it out in the Beta and I encourage you to post some feedback in the Beta Feedback forums

In otherwords, they both do 215% weapon damage, but a faster weapon will do it in smaller/faster "bites" and the slower, harder hitting weapon would do it in larger/slow chuncks.   At leasts thats how I read it.

It would be like: (Damage Numbers)

Fast weapon: 3.4.3.1.2.4.3.3.4.4.7.4.2.1.3
Slow Weapon: 5....6.....7.....5.....6.....5.....5......7.......12......4

This would explain why when you use Bats whith a slow weapon it feels so OP, that first hit is harder.. Especially in the beta when things just dont take much to kill.  Later in the game, when you actualy have to cast Bats on somthing for longer than 1 "cycle" it would not be so noticeable a difference and would become more of a "taste" thing.
I could be wrong of course.

You are completely right, but the potential to frontload dmg is pretty much always favorable imo.  Especially for a WD whose only means to get back mana is to regenerate it.

Casting spells quickly increases their effective mana costs as your are getting less out of your regeneration.

Ie.

20 mana per second
Bats = 122 mana

2 APS: 122 mana - 20/2 Mana = 112 mana per cast
1 APS: 122 mana - 20 Mana = 102 man per cast

Assuming equivalent dmg per second for bats, the Slow weapon is going to be superior for two reasons.
1)  Frontload dmg, thus reducing # of enemies.
2)  Cast longer or cast more expensive spells more frequently.

[burninfate]

I would have to agree with some of the post here, the faster animation will be much better for higher levels of difficulty. Mobility will be key at near end-game due to this class being a caster and not so much a tank. Even a few split seconds may save your life.