18 replies to this topic

[silent.knife.speaks.]

I haven't looked at too many Demon Hunter builds but I wanted to have a go at making a build that hopefully should be able to work in Inferno.

http://us.battle.net...cdjg!cYb!abaZaY

Actives

Entangling Shot / Chain Gang: the hatred generator and a spammable snare on 4 targets. Beautiful synergy with Cull the Weak, and should be effective at keeping enemies away for Steady Aim.

Multishot / Fire at Will: the primary AoE hatred spender. Patch 16 buffed the damage to 165% while making it cost 40 hatred, so Fire at Will is more important now. It should do decent damage combined with Cull the Weak and Steady Aim passives.

Rapid Fire / Withering Fire: the primary single target ability. Huge damage, and I like the look of Withering Fire to stay hatred-efficient, due to Multishot now using up more hatred.

Vault / Rattling Roll: an excellent way to gtfo and survive.

Marked for Death / Contagion: always useful, either on a single target or to take out groups.

Shadow Power / Gloom: excellent for survivability in Inferno, reducing all damage and healing. Cast it then use Rapid Fire on a single target, or spam Multishot against a wall of enemies, for the most effective healing.

Passives

Cull the Weak is perfect with Entangling Shot, as you will always be able to spam snares.

Steady Aim is a huge damage increase, and I think it's possible to have it active for most of the time because of Entangling Shot and Vault.

Vengeance looks like a good third passive for this build. None of these abilities have cooldowns, so the only thing stopping you from spamming is your Hatred and Discipline, and Vengeance will help to replenish these. It could be changed for something else though.

Other thoughts

I think Marked for Death looks like a really useful ability, but it could probably be swapped out for an ability with more CC (such as Caltrops) depending on if it's needed in higher difficulties.

Discuss.

Edited by silent.knife.speaks., 10 April 2012 - 12:52 PM.

[pmpch]

silent.knife.speaks., on 10 April 2012 - 03:20 AM, said:

Multishot / Suppression Fire or Full Broadside: the primary AoE hatred spender. Patch 16 buffed the damage to 165% (215% with Full Broadside) while making it cost 40 hatred, so less spammable but should do huge damage combined with Cull the Weak and Steady Aim passives. I think the extra discipline from Suppression Fire is probably more valuable than the extra damage from FB.

The extra damage was never a top 2 choice. It's was either Suppression Fire or Fire at Will. Fire at Will reduces the cost to 50% (40->20), which basicly doubles the effective damage output per time (that's a quite a bit better than going from 165% to 215%). I'm pretty sure that Fire at Will is the top choice now. The synergy of Suppression Fire and Shadow Power got nerfed into the ground (which is pretty much what I expected to happen). You only get 12 Hatred now, which is a joke.

[silent.knife.speaks.]

pmpch, on 10 April 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

silent.knife.speaks., on 10 April 2012 - 03:20 AM, said:

Multishot / Suppression Fire or Full Broadside: the primary AoE hatred spender. Patch 16 buffed the damage to 165% (215% with Full Broadside) while making it cost 40 hatred, so less spammable but should do huge damage combined with Cull the Weak and Steady Aim passives. I think the extra discipline from Suppression Fire is probably more valuable than the extra damage from FB.

The extra damage was never a top 2 choice. It's was either Suppression Fire or Fire at Will. Fire at Will reduces the cost to 50% (40->20), which basicly doubles the effective damage output per time (that's a quite a bit better than going from 165% to 215%). I'm pretty sure that Fire at Will is the top choice now. The synergy of Suppression Fire and Shadow Power got nerfed into the ground (which is pretty much what I expected to happen). You only get 12 Hatred now, which is a joke.

Ah yeah, I didn't think about how those 2 abilities would synergize so well, I guess that would have been a bit broken

But thanks for the comments, I think Fire at Will is a good addition, especially after the recent change to Multishot.

What do you think about the overall build? Enough CC for the higher difficulties? And what about Vengeance, does that seem like a viable passive?

Edited by silent.knife.speaks., 10 April 2012 - 12:20 PM.

[pmpch]

• Rapid Fire: If you run a single target Hatred spender (such as Rapid Fire) I strongly suggest opting for damage. Fire Support does an additional 105% damage, 157% if you run Ballistics as a passive, which I recommend. That puts you at 385% damage per second for 10 Hatred, after the inital 20 Hatred cost. That should be the highest possible damage.

• Sentry: If you get Spitfire you have an additional 32% damage fire support from the turret at any given time.

• Shadow Power: Replace this with a defensive Spell like Caltrops. Fan of Knives, Hail of Knives is another great spell with a defensive component.

• Mark of Death: Probably have to replace this with some defensive spell in Inferno. There are also great defensive passives, such as Numbing Traps that greatly synergise with Fan of Knives and Caltrops.

[Mysticjbyrd]

pmpch, on 10 April 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

silent.knife.speaks., on 10 April 2012 - 03:20 AM, said:

Multishot / Suppression Fire or Full Broadside: the primary AoE hatred spender. Patch 16 buffed the damage to 165% (215% with Full Broadside) while making it cost 40 hatred, so less spammable but should do huge damage combined with Cull the Weak and Steady Aim passives. I think the extra discipline from Suppression Fire is probably more valuable than the extra damage from FB.

The extra damage was never a top 2 choice. It's was either Suppression Fire or Fire at Will. Fire at Will reduces the cost to 50% (40->20), which basicly doubles the effective damage output per time (that's a quite a bit better than going from 165% to 215%). I'm pretty sure that Fire at Will is the top choice now. The synergy of Suppression Fire and Shadow Power got nerfed into the ground (which is pretty much what I expected to happen). You only get 12 Hatred now, which is a joke.

No its far more complicated than saying 40/20, so its double the effective dmg.  
Full Broadside costs more sure, but you are ignoring your generators dmg output.

You aren't comparing
4 Full Broadsides v/s 8 Fire at will

Rather, its more like
4 Full Broadsides + 4 generators v/s 8 Fire at will

Using this comparison, neither one is ZOMG better than the other.
PS:  Fire at will was rather mediocre before as Multi-shot was so cheap.  At level 60 w/ good weapon/quiver a bat companion and a disc=>hatred generator, like breath deep, you could have spammed 15 hatred Multi-shot almost all day.

pmpch, on 10 April 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

• Rapid Fire: If you run a single target Hatred spender (such as Rapid Fire) I strongly suggest opting for damage. Fire Support does an additional 105% damage, 157% if you run Ballistics as a passive, which I recommend. That puts you at 385% damage per second for 10 Hatred, after the inital 20 Hatred cost. That should be the highest possible damage.

• Sentry: If you get Spitfire you have an additional 32% damage fire support from the turret at any given time.

• Shadow Power: Replace this with a defensive Spell like Caltrops. Fan of Knives, Hail of Knives is another great spell with a defensive component.

• Mark of Death: Probably have to replace this with some defensive spell in Inferno. There are also great defensive passives, such as Numbing Traps that greatly synergise with Fan of Knives and Caltrops.

Assuming those missiles will all home in onto a single target.

Sentry is like a bad joke.  This ability will get a large buff when they find no one uses it, but as of right now it is so awful its laughable.

Shadow Power is a defensive skill.

There is nothing wrong with the glass cannon have some offense in inferno.  Not every skill has to be completely defensive in nature.


You aren't offering suggestions, you are making a rocket build.

Edited by Mysticjbyrd, 11 April 2012 - 03:47 AM.

[silent.knife.speaks.]

Mysticjbyrd, on 11 April 2012 - 03:33 AM, said:

No its far more complicated than saying 40/20, so its double the effective dmg.  
Full Broadside costs more sure, but you are ignoring your generators dmg output.

You aren't comparing
4 Full Broadsides v/s 8 Fire at will

Rather, its more like
4 Full Broadsides + 4 generators v/s 8 Fire at will

Using this comparison, neither one is ZOMG better than the other.
PS:  Fire at will was rather mediocre before as Multi-shot was so cheap.  At level 60 w/ good weapon/quiver a bat companion and a disc=>hatred generator, like breath deep, you could have spammed 15 hatred Multi-shot almost all day.

Thanks for replying, but I'm not sure that I follow your first point. So are you saying that because Full Broadside shots are more expensive, you will be using generators between shots? Whereas with Fire at Will you might fire off all 8 shots without using generators?

If this is the case it doesn't really reflect how I plan to play the build, because I will be using Entangling shot a lot as a way to keep mobs snared.

But it's a good point about having heaps of sources of hatred regen at high levels. I think the only way to know what runes to take is to play the build with one's own particular set of items.

[Mysticjbyrd]

silent.knife.speaks., on 11 April 2012 - 03:43 AM, said:

Mysticjbyrd, on 11 April 2012 - 03:33 AM, said:

No its far more complicated than saying 40/20, so its double the effective dmg.  
Full Broadside costs more sure, but you are ignoring your generators dmg output.

You aren't comparing
4 Full Broadsides v/s 8 Fire at will

Rather, its more like
4 Full Broadsides + 4 generators v/s 8 Fire at will

Using this comparison, neither one is ZOMG better than the other.
PS:  Fire at will was rather mediocre before as Multi-shot was so cheap.  At level 60 w/ good weapon/quiver a bat companion and a disc=>hatred generator, like breath deep, you could have spammed 15 hatred Multi-shot almost all day.

Thanks for replying, but I'm not sure that I follow your first point. So are you saying that because Full Broadside shots are more expensive, you will be using generators between shots? Whereas with Fire at Will you might fire off all 8 shots without using generators?

If this is the case it doesn't really reflect how I plan to play the build, because I will be using Entangling shot a lot as a way to keep mobs snared.

But it's a good point about having heaps of sources of hatred regen at high levels. I think the only way to know what runes to take is to play the build with one's own particular set of items.

You have to consider efficiency of the shot, and how much dmg it does per cast.

People look at the runes that increase %dmg and generally dismiss them without thought, because they aren't as efficient.  However, when you actually do the math they turn out to be on par with efficiency runes depending on the resource generator.


In my example, I said you could use about 4 Full Broadsides or 8 Fire at will Multii-shots with full hatred.  The point of this is to try to keep as many variables constant as possible.  That is why we are comparing exactly 8 casts each for the comparison, with roughly the exact same hatred expended.  However, you would gain some hatred by using your generators, which could favor the full broadsides depending on the amount of resource generation.


I am going to use Bola Shot - Volatile Explosions instead of Chain Gang as it better represents the mechanics(AoE) of multi-shot.

So,
4x Full Broadside + 4x Bola = 215*4+110*4 = 1300% wpn dmg +12 hatred
v/s
8x Fire at Will = 8 * 165 = 1320% wpn dmg

Same # of casts & Same amount of Hatred expended & Same amount of Hatred passively Regenerated.
And as you can see the dmg is pretty even when you do the comparison.

You could potentially argue that multi-shot is a better AoE, but you could also argue that you could front load more dmg via Full Broadside as well, so its pretty moot.


You are already planning to using chain gang as a means to CC in between shots, which is good, that means you are considering actual gameplay instead of just #s.  Which of the two would fit best within that play-style is based completely on the amount of time to kill the demons, and your preferred play-style.

[silent.knife.speaks.]

Mysticjbyrd, on 11 April 2012 - 04:14 AM, said:

You have to consider efficiency of the shot, and how much dmg it does per cast.

People look at the runes that increase %dmg and generally dismiss them without thought, because they aren't as efficient.  However, when you actually do the math they turn out to be on par with efficiency runes depending on the resource generator.


In my example, I said you could use about 4 Full Broadsides or 8 Fire at will Multii-shots with full hatred.  The point of this is to try to keep as many variables constant as possible.  That is why we are comparing exactly 8 casts each for the comparison, with roughly the exact same hatred expended.  However, you would gain some hatred by using your generators, which could favor the full broadsides depending on the amount of resource generation.


I am going to use Bola Shot - Volatile Explosions instead of Chain Gang as it better represents the mechanics(AoE) of multi-shot.

So,
4x Full Broadside + 4x Bola = 215*4+110*4 = 1300% wpn dmg +12 hatred
v/s
8x Fire at Will = 8 * 165 = 1320% wpn dmg

Same # of casts & Same amount of Hatred expended & Same amount of Hatred passively Regenerated.
And as you can see the dmg is pretty even when you do the comparison.

You could potentially argue that multi-shot is a better AoE, but you could also argue that you could front load more dmg via Full Broadside as well, so its pretty moot.


You are already planning to using chain gang as a means to CC in between shots, which is good, that means you are considering actual gameplay instead of just #s.  Which of the two would fit best within that play-style is based completely on the amount of time to kill the demons, and your preferred play-style.

Thanks for elaborating, that's some interesting food for thought.

I think in the end the easiest way for me to make an effective build will be to try everything out, because for example I have no idea whether I'll need the extra discipline from Suppression Fire when I'm actually trying to survive in Hell/Inferno. But thinking about it in mathematical terms is definitely illuminating.

Just a kind of unrelated question, does Entangling Shot apply the 75% damage to all enemies hit, or just the initial target? If it applies to all, then Chain Gang will have fairly useful AoE damage on top of its CC.

[Casanova]

3 Disc skills and no bitter pill or supression fire?

[silent.knife.speaks.]

Casanova, on 11 April 2012 - 11:36 AM, said:

3 Disc skills and no bitter pill or supression fire?

I have got some Disc regen with the Vengeance passive. I'm not good at judging how much Disc regen I'll need, but if this build is really struggling with Disc then I would go with Suppression Fire.

[pmpch]

In general the efficiency of mutli target spells depend on the number of target it hit, meaning the total damage it does, which defines it's damage per ressources spent ratio or in other words: efficiency. Some spells have secondary effects, which can be considered more valueable than raw damage.

Now, the efficiency of all these spells changes depending on how the enemies are set up. Things to consider...

• Number of enemies
  
• Formation: clustered, spread.
  
• Resistances / Health / Regenaration

For instance, Entagling Shot / Chain Gang can only hit 4 targets if there are 4 target in close proximity. The efficiency of Chakram depends on how many enemies you are able to hit. If you are able to hit most targets it will be more effective than Multishot, which costs far more Hatred to use. Elemental Arrow is excellent if you can hit many enemies that are lined up, but this isn't always the case.

What rune choice is the most optimal depends on these scenarios just as much.

The following ability choices I present are based on my conclusion that for the most part of the game there will be 4 or more monsters on the screen. Even champion packs usually involve atleast 4 monsters. Therefore I consider single monster encounters less relevant for the most part of the game, except for super bosses, where it should be easy to just swap out some abilites beforehand for more single target focus.

As of right no one knows how hard Inferno is going to be. However some conclusions can be made. The primary assumption I am going to make is that debuffs/control spells will be far more valuable than buffs, maybe not so much in pre-arranged teams but for certain in randomly generated parties. Serenity (the Monk one, yes) is going to save so many noobs: a team wide immunity spell with 10% uptime is godlike in Inferno no matter what, trust me on that. What I'm trying to say is, what good are damage buffs if you are a corpse.


Current working setup: http://us.battle.net...hkYV!bVY!abbcaZ

Some explanations...

• Venegeance is an excellent choice if you combine it with Multishot/Suppression Fire and Preparation/Punishment. As long as there are 7+ targets it's self sustaining.
  
• Numbing Traps. Spammable debuff if you have Caltrops. Very strong in my opinion. Fan of Knives applies this aswell.
  
• Sentry. The only reason I consider this is for the 15% debuff, which is constant for whoever stands under that shield. I assume the turret can't die.
  
• Entangling Shot. If a team has enough initial slowing/CC capabilities, I'd probably replace this with Grenades / Tinkerer for more Hatred generation. Afaik, a grenade can hit mulitiple targets, aswell.

Edited by pmpch, 11 April 2012 - 02:22 PM.

[Casanova]

pmpch, on 11 April 2012 - 02:14 PM, said:

• Sentry. The only reason I consider this is for the 15% debuff, which is constant for whoever stands under that shield. I assume the turret can't die.

I think Chain of Torment looks really intresting, problem is its impossible to judge how good it will be. It depends on its range, the width of the tether and if the arrows will pierce.

[Speaker]

pmpch, your link doesn't work.  I think you need to update the URL.

[Elire]

Really awsome build imo! =)

[pmpch]

Casanova, on 11 April 2012 - 02:19 PM, said:

pmpch, on 11 April 2012 - 02:14 PM, said:

• Sentry. The only reason I consider this is for the 15% debuff, which is constant for whoever stands under that shield. I assume the turret can't die.

I think Chain of Torment looks really intresting, problem is its impossible to judge how good it will be. It depends on its range, the width of the tether and if the arrows will pierce.

The main issue with the tether is that it is between you and the turret, so you either have to reposition and maybe get into a dangerous position or place the turret and then let the enemy walk passed it. I used run it in earlier builds, but it's kinda hard to say how effective it is going to be. It's definitely viable, we'll see.

The link works fine for me, btw.

Edited by pmpch, 13 April 2012 - 01:14 PM.

[Speaker]

When I click your link it defaults back to http://us.battle.net...V21aaaaaaaaacaZ

So I dunno.  I can't see what runes and passives you put in.

Edited by Speaker, 13 April 2012 - 04:35 PM.

[silent.knife.speaks.]

Speaker, on 13 April 2012 - 04:34 PM, said:

When I click your link it defaults back to http://us.battle.net...V21aaaaaaaaacaZ

So I dunno.  I can't see what runes and passives you put in.

I get this too.

[1up_Mush]

Use firefox, internet explorer screws up links.

[silent.knife.speaks.]

1up_Mush, on 14 April 2012 - 02:52 AM, said:

Use firefox, internet explorer screws up links.

Using Chrome. I've read elsewhere that this problem happens to some people on all browsers, so not sure what the solution is.