93 replies to this topic

[Sumsarr]

Covina303, on 08 April 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

sumsarr, you speak of all the shortcomings but provide no solutions.  How would you design the classes to still feel unique from each other to those who play them?

I would have them as they are but without the stupid 30% dmg reduction buff for monk and barb.

I wouldn't have removed fundamentals, virtuoso or gimped weapon throw passive.

If Blizzard insist on giving melee characters more dmg boost they could simply work around the issue and either:

- Make shields stronger
- Make defensive passive skills stronger.

To these two changes , one might say: "Sumsarr... doesn't that mean a range class could have the same dmg reduction as a melee class? That's outrageous!". Well, it's not. If a range class whishes to sacrifice their damage, they gimp their whole purpose: dealing dmg to mobs before they reach them. One might then claim that they will be doing the same amount of damage, but with the difference being that the ranged variation will have the advantage of being ranged. That is false:

If we first choose to look at Wizard we can comfirm that all the melee spells are more efficient than range spells. Explosive blast deals 205% weapon dmg in 12y for 20 ap. Compare this to the infamous Arcane Orb which deals 175% weapon dmg in 10y for 35 ap. One could also compare spectral blades with magic missiles and draw the same conclusion.

This would mean a ranged wizard wearing a powerful shield would deal less damage than a melee wizard. However, if she removes the shield and replaces it with a strong offhand, she will likely deal more damage (or as much, but with the advantage of being ranged) as the melee wizard. Same principle goes for passive skills.

Comparing a melee DH to a ranged DH is easier in this scenario, because it would look something like this:
The strongest 1hxbow in the database has 210 dps (http://us.battle.net...rossbow/#page=2) while the strongest melee sword has 245 dps (http://us.battle.net...word-1h/#page=2). This means that the melee DH can afford to spend passives (or item slots) on defensive stats while still not being afraid of losing damage.

The issue with Wizard is that Blizzard built a bad system regarding dmg (weapon dmg for spells as well as melee dmg). This makes it VERY hard to balance a spellcaster, since the spellcaster, the Wizard, will be using basicly the same equipment when they're ranged and melee.

My overall changes would therefore be:

- Remove 30% shit buff
- Implement Virtuoso, fundamentals and ranged barb passsive buff
- Slight buff to Wizard melee spells. Add a few more runed melee variations to the Wizard allowing more melee playstyles and give the existing onces a slight buff. Explosive blast could for instance have ~3 second cooldown instead of 6.
- Make a bit shields stronger. By doing this The barbarian and the monk and the melee variations of DH, Wiz and WD could feel more comfortable in melee range. Some might whine and say a Barbarian shouldn't be forced to pick up a shield in order to pass inferno, but maybe he doesn't have to. You should be able to build a "glass barbarian" as well as a glass wizard. The glass barbarian might rely on dealing shitloads of damage while leeching life you simply killing stuff before they kill him. He will, however, lose defensive stats.
- Make defensive passives slightly stronger. By doing this only extend the variation of unique playstyles, which is something good according to me. As we have noticed, a range Wizard could pick up the defensive passives as well, but that would mean she would deal less damage than her melee variation, making it fair.

With these changes, some people will think I'm ruining the class diversity. That's not the case. What these changes would do is make the existing class diversity balance. As it is, Blizzard have made it possible to do a melee DH and a melee Wizard with clear spells and runes. The possibility does however not mean it's good by any means. Actually, as it is, it's shit.

A melee Wizard will NEVER be as good as a melee barbarian and a ranged barbarian will NEVER be as good as a Demon Hunter. That is bullshit.
Consider a Diablo in which the paladin HAD to punch his opponents to death, the amazon HAD to use bows, the druid HAD to shapeshift and the assassin HAD to use martial arts. Now, try to remember Diablo II and what made the game amazing. Part of it was for sure the fact that the Druid could be a tankish melee class, taking as much damage as a barb or be played as a spell caster, being able to compeat with a sorc. The Amazon could at the same time go javazon style and deal most damage in game at the expense of losing her range, but she could also go the safe route and spam multishots.
It was BEAUTIFUL. It was still a clear class diversity, a druid was a druid and a sorc was a sorc, but when the druid and the sorc chose to compeat in the same field they were equals.

Sorry for lack of structure in the post. Not 100% sober.

Edited by Sumsarr, 08 April 2012 - 08:03 AM.

[Greenjoke]

a melee wizard won't play like a barbarian. you're going to be using a lot of spells to control monsters anyways.

if you have the idea that a melee wizard is just a barbarian with a different model then no, blizzard never intends that and won't make it possible

[Sumsarr]

Greenjoke, on 08 April 2012 - 08:27 AM, said:

a melee wizard won't play like a barbarian. you're going to be using a lot of spells to control monsters anyways.

if you have the idea that a melee wizard is just a barbarian with a different model then no, blizzard never intends that and won't make it possible

Come on, think before you post. Of course they shouldn't do the exact same things, they should however do the same thing equally as good in different ways. Currently, the barbarian has more CC, more damage and more buffs than melee wiz. He is simply better in every single way.

EDIT: How will you with melee wiz control the mobs to a degree which compensates for 30% dmg reduction? Frost nova? A snare for a few seconds? Compare that to Ground Stomp, 4 second stun. THAT's control.

Edited by Sumsarr, 08 April 2012 - 08:38 AM.

[akse]

Sumsarr, on 08 April 2012 - 08:36 AM, said:

Greenjoke, on 08 April 2012 - 08:27 AM, said:

a melee wizard won't play like a barbarian. you're going to be using a lot of spells to control monsters anyways.

if you have the idea that a melee wizard is just a barbarian with a different model then no, blizzard never intends that and won't make it possible

Come on, think before you post. Of course they shouldn't do the exact same things, they should however do the same thing equally as good in different ways. Currently, the barbarian has more CC, more damage and more buffs than melee wiz. He is simply better in every single way.

EDIT: How will you with melee wiz control the mobs to a degree which compensates for 30% dmg reduction? Frost nova? A snare for a few seconds? Compare that to Ground Stomp, 4 second stun. THAT's control.

Oh no wizard is not as good melee as barb? If I want the top melee i choose monk or barb, if I want the top ranged I choose Wizard,, DH and WD i'm not so sure they are good ranged too I suppose.

Frost nova with shatter = multiple novas.

[Sumsarr]

akse, on 08 April 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

Oh no wizard is not as good melee as barb? If I want the top melee i choose monk or barb, if I want the top ranged I choose Wizard,, DH and WD i'm not so sure they are good ranged too I suppose.

Frost nova with shatter = multiple novas.

You obviously did not read my previous entry to this topic.

Here are a few pointers for people with below average intelligence such as yourself:

1. There is a possibility to make a melee Wizard. Several spells are designed for this purpose.
2. There is a possibility to make a melee DH. Several spells are designed for this purpose.
3. In order to maintain a balanced game, these variations should be as strong as their counterparts - in this case the barbarian and the monk. For instance, the Javazon in D2 was as strong as the Paladin or the Barbarian. That did not make Amazon a broken class, simply a class with big diversity.
If Diablo 2 was as unbalanced as Diablo 3 the following would not exist:

- Hammerdin
- Tornado druid
- Singer
- Javazon
- Summoner druid
- Psn necro
- Zealot sorc
- Dancer assassin

etc etc.

Diversity is what makes a game last long.

If you wish to respond in an intellectual manner, please provide an argument and not just random stupid statements.

[italofoca]

If melee wizard wasnt' suppose to exist he shouldn't have all the melee supports skills in the first place. Misleading skills are terrible, if something exist it must be useful. Replace spectral blades, storm/ice armor, explosive blast and magic weapon with other skills or else people have an legit reason to complain about melee wizard not being good enough.

Edited by italofoca, 08 April 2012 - 06:30 PM.

[mbease]

I loved my melee sorc in D2, and I'm definitely going to give it a try in D3. Also, I always thought the sin looked awesome weilding a two-hander, yet melee builds were pretty crappy with her. Time to bust some ideas for one of each!

Something like this: http://us.battle.net...gSOX!afh!ccZcYc

Edited by mbease, 08 April 2012 - 07:36 PM.

[Daemaro]

I remember this whole time they were saying they wanted to make melee wizards viable. Not asking for top end damage and defense, but viable means playable in Inferno. 30% damage reduction is huge and it has me wondering if that's enough to hold them back in Inferno.

[mbease]

mbease, on 08 April 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

I loved my melee sorc in D2, and I'm definitely going to give it a try in D3. Also, I always thought the sin looked awesome weilding a two-hander, yet melee builds were pretty crappy with her. Time to bust some ideas for one of each!

Something like this: http://us.battle.net...gSOX!afh!ccZcYc

Also, possible melee DH build? http://us.battle.net...XjSg!bVU!YZbaZY

Edited by mbease, 08 April 2012 - 10:54 PM.

[1up_Mush]

Meele wizard or Dh are not viable. Blizzard promised us a whole bunch but in the end it's deceiving to me.

[Travincall]

Sumsarr, on 08 April 2012 - 06:22 AM, said:

Travincall, on 08 April 2012 - 03:48 AM, said:

Mysticjbyrd, on 07 April 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

They were never ideal to begin with, not even close, but probably doable.  Now that the real melee classes have 30% dmg reduction, it seems ridiculous to even consider the possibility of melee wizard.

IF i was even going to try it I would have to use death blossom.

The 30% dmg reduction is big but not really a huge setback to the melee wizard seeing that wizards have quite a bit of dmg reduction themselves if they want and will still have life leech AND instead of taking less dmg they will get bigger heals from health globes then barbs and monks as well. Anyway the point I'm trying to make is that a sorc could have just as much armor or dmg reduction as a barb and possibly more depending on the build.

Haha, stop talking out of your ass!

Here are the facts:

Wizard has 0% dmg reduction.
Barbarian has 30% dmg reduction.

That's a HUGE difference. Of course you could claim that Wizard has a lot of armor spells, but then it will look something like this when barbarian spends all his points not needed on armor on dps:

Wizard 30% dmg reduction, 100 dps
Barbarian 35% dmg reduction, 800 dps

This whole system regarding 30% dmg reduction is the most silly thing implemented into the world of Diablo. Blizzard speaks a lot of crap about how they want to promote "million of viable builds, each one customized just for you!!!". The changes they make speak for themselves:

- Nerfing weapon throw passive = no more good range barbs

- Removing fundamentals = no more melee dmg for dh

- Removing virtuoso = no more wand wizard

- Nerfing chakram melee rune effect from 105% dmg/sec to 30% dmg/sec = bye bye melee pros for DH

- 30% dmg reduction for "melee" classes: monk and barb = a big !@#$ you to everyone who wanted to form their own playstyle.

(These are just some of the changes I can recall, but I'm sure there have been more of them)

Blizzards speaks of how they want to promote viable builds - well, they either dont want that or they're just stupid.

Wielding a melee weapon on a "range" class brings nothing but disadvantages.

I like how you say I'm talking out of my ass when I said from the start "I would never play a melee wizard since its not how they are meant to be played" and then you talk out of your ass and explain to me how wizards are not meant to be melee. DID YOU READ MY POST DOUCHE? Anyway as I said before I wouldn't play a melee wizard but the only one talking out of their ass is you because everyone knows this is just theory until the game is out and people can actually run the numbers except for you who seems to think you know everything about the game because you can read right off the website and pretend its your knowledge. Just get off already dude and stop pretending you know about something you don't know anything about and crying to others who are "THEORY CRAFTING"

[Nuggetz]

Not a chance in hell.  Getit?  Getit guys!?

[Sumsarr]

Travincall, on 10 April 2012 - 04:19 AM, said:

I like how you say I'm talking out of my ass when I said from the start "I would never play a melee wizard since its not how they are meant to be played" and then you talk out of your ass and explain to me how wizards are not meant to be melee. DID YOU READ MY POST DOUCHE? Anyway as I said before I wouldn't play a melee wizard but the only one talking out of their ass is you because everyone knows this is just theory until the game is out and people can actually run the numbers except for you who seems to think you know everything about the game because you can read right off the website and pretend its your knowledge. Just get off already dude and stop pretending you know about something you don't know anything about and crying to others who are "THEORY CRAFTING"

I'm the one theorycrafting - you're the one who is stating random facts such as "wizards are not meant to be melee", lol. Why would Blizzard make a whole skill-set for explicit melee action if they were not meant to be played that way? Why would they on blizzcon show a video of a melee wizard in action? It's as if all the summoning skills for Witch Doctor were pure shit, but he still had them. Would you then claim "WD is not meant to be a summoner"? That's the exact same thing.

Blizzard wants us to be able to play a melee Wizard. The thing is they have done a terrible job doing so and it's currently NOT viable. It might be able to beat inferno, but it's never going to be as strong as a monk or barbarian - hence, it's bad.

[Ruppgu]

I think talking in absolutes at this point is pretty silly. The game is not even out and we already have people saying what will and will not be viable. You don't know, so stop pretending like you do.

http://us.battle.net...mOQY!Wfa!YaaaaZ

Here's my personal melee build and it's quite high on damage. I can spam Ray of Frost most of the time for 235% (area effect) damage per second. That isn't "crappy" damage.

Also, when the going gets rough, I can hit Archon which will not only blow everything up for 450% area effect damage, but I will also get some massive area effect spells and increase my armor by another 40%

Here's the abilities that help the wizard survive from my build:

20% DR from Blur
65% Increased armor from energy Shield
310 life regen per sec from ward
Frost Nova to stun for 3 seconds every 9 seconds (a 33% uptime)
40% increased armor when Archon is cast
30% DR after a teleport for 4 seconds
Chance to heal from Spectral Blades

To me, that sounds pretty comparable to a monk/Barb. Also, once we actually EXPERIENCE the game and how difficult it is, the build can be tweaked to make it even better. Currently it's at a max survivability state but I could easily change a few things to increase the damage a lot. Magic weapon could add +12% more damage. I could add AP regen to my signature to increase the uptime for Ray of Frost. It all depends on how hard everything is.

Even at 235% damage, that's pretty good for a spammable spell.... even loaded up on Defensive abilities the Wizard won't be doing crap damage.

Edited by Ruppgu, 10 April 2012 - 01:55 PM.

[Sumsarr]

Ruppgu, on 10 April 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

I think talking in absolutes at this point is pretty silly. The game is not even out and we already have people saying what will and will not be viable. You don't know, so stop pretending like you do.

http://us.battle.net...mOQY!Wfa!YaaaaZ

Here's my personal melee build and it's quite high on damage. I can spam Ray of Frost most of the time for 235% (area effect) damage per second. That isn't "crappy" damage.

Also, when the going gets rough, I can hit Archon which will not only blow everything up for 450% area effect damage, but I will also get some massive area effect spells and increase my armor by another 40%

Here's the abilities that help the wizard survive from my build:

20% DR from Blur
65% Increased armor from energy Shield
310 life regen per sec from ward
Frost Nova to stun for 3 seconds every 9 seconds (a 33% uptime)
40% increased armor when Archon is cast
30% DR after a teleport for 4 seconds
Chance to heal from Spectral Blades

To me, that sounds pretty comparable to a monk/Barb. Also, once we actually EXPERIENCE the game and how difficult it is, the build can be tweaked to make it even better. Currently it's at a max survivability state but I could easily change a few things to increase the damage a lot. Magic weapon could add +12% more damage. I could add AP regen to my signature to increase the uptime for Ray of Frost. It all depends on how hard everything is.

Even at 235% damage, that's pretty good for a spammable spell.... even loaded up on Defensive abilities the Wizard won't be doing crap damage.

You are overlooking facts. You've made a nice build, sure. A barb can have a nice build such as yours AND 30% damage reduction. You will, no matter what, never catch up. You can make a melee wizard which might be able to beat Inferno, you will, however, never make a melee Wizard who can compare herself to the barbarian or the monk. That's silly. Shouldn't be that way.

EDIT: Ray of Frost damage i is per second. You normally cast ~1,6 spells per second otherwise, so it deals less damage than signature spells. It does slow tho.

Edited by Sumsarr, 10 April 2012 - 02:59 PM.

[Ruppgu]

Sumsarr, on 10 April 2012 - 02:56 PM, said:

You are overlooking facts. You've made a nice build, sure. A barb can have a nice build such as yours AND 30% damage reduction. You will, no matter what, never catch up. You can make a melee wizard which might be able to beat Inferno, you will, however, never make a melee Wizard who can compare herself to the barbarian or the monk. That's silly. Shouldn't be that way.

EDIT: Ray of Frost damage i is per second. You normally cast ~1,6 spells per second otherwise, so it deals less damage than signature spells. It does slow tho.

Ray of Frost is based on weapon speed (not per second) just like all abilities.

Can you show me a monk/barb build to compare side by side to prove your point? It's meaningless to just state that Barb/Monk will do more damage because they start ahead of the curve in DR.

[Sumsarr]

Ruppgu, on 10 April 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

Sumsarr, on 10 April 2012 - 02:56 PM, said:

You are overlooking facts. You've made a nice build, sure. A barb can have a nice build such as yours AND 30% damage reduction. You will, no matter what, never catch up. You can make a melee wizard which might be able to beat Inferno, you will, however, never make a melee Wizard who can compare herself to the barbarian or the monk. That's silly. Shouldn't be that way.

EDIT: Ray of Frost damage i is per second. You normally cast ~1,6 spells per second otherwise, so it deals less damage than signature spells. It does slow tho.

Ray of Frost is based on weapon speed (not per second) just like all abilities.

Can you show me a monk/barb build to compare side by side to prove your point? It's meaningless to just state that Barb/Monk will do more damage because they start ahead of the curve in DR.

http://us.battle.net...bZXh!ZbU!cbcbbc

Ruppgu, on 10 April 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

20% DR from Blur

-25% damage on opponents. That means ALL damage. Not just melee damage like blur. It's more reduction and on all sources. Better better better.

Ruppgu, on 10 April 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

65% Increased armor from energy Shield

33% dodge from skills alone and dodge deals damage. Way better. Energy shield also gimps your damage.

Ruppgu, on 10 April 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

310 life regen per sec from ward
Chance to heal from Spectral Blades

Powerful aoe heal

Ruppgu, on 10 April 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

Frost Nova to stun for 3 seconds every 9 seconds (a 33% uptime)

33% bonus total damage from this build. I think i prefer that.

Ruppgu, on 10 April 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

40% increased armor when Archon is cast

One with everything

Ruppgu, on 10 April 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

30% DR after a teleport for 4 seconds
Chance to heal from Spectral Blades

30% DR all the time for being monk and dashing strike - better mobility.

Ruppgu, on 10 April 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

Better damage, better mobility, better defensive stats.

Edited by Sumsarr, 10 April 2012 - 03:58 PM.

[Ruppgu]

lol... please stop saying your opinion instead of actually comparing the numbers. It's not easy to compare build vs build... but let's give it a shot beyond just saying x is better! Keep in mind, it's difficult to calculate dps for lines and close range aoe. I am assuming a line spell for a melee class won't be as good as a close range radius AoE (which is a safe assumption). The exact number of monsters each skill will hit will vary of course.

Wizard Damage
235% Spammable AoE about 10 yards (which will hit 3-4 monsters on average to be 705-940 DPS.. 822 avg)
337% avg from spamming Spectral Blades (Assuming it will hit 2-3 on avg)
Not enough information about Archon to make an estimation, I'll completely disregard this even though it's a large increase of DPS when it's active.
Lets go with an uptime of 3/4 Sleet Storm 1/4 Spectral Blades.
(882+882+882+337) / 4 =745 DPS
vs.
Monk Damage
240% + 33% if buffs active (line AoE Spender (aka, once every 5 attacks) The problem is... it's a melee character doing a line aoe. Line aoe's are great for ranged classes because you can line it up. Line AoE's are so-so for melee because the monsters are surrounding you so that they can attack. They aren't lined up very nicely due to this and you often only hit 2-4 monsters (sometimes more though). I'll even give the benefit of the doubt here and say you have your buffs active to make it (546-1092 DPS.. 819 avg)

When you're generating spirit
140 + 33 = 173 DPS for 2 hits
250 + 33 = 283 hitting about 2-4 monsters = 566-1132DPS (849 DPS avg)
For ease of use... we'll see 6 normal attacks and then a tail kick
173+173+849+173+173+849+819 = 3209/7=458DPS

Damage Conclusion
458 vs the 745DPS avg from the Wizard. I'm not counting the dodge mantra because it says "chance" to do 35% damage so I'm not sure which numbers to use. It wouldn't add much more than 10-20 DPS though.

Surviveability
Ward + Blades vs Heal = slight nod to Monk (Heal comes out to be 413 health/sec if you spam it exactly on cooldown (which is an unreasonable assumption) + it spends spirit). Ward is 310 and it's difficult to say how much blades will be but I doubt it'll be 100 health/sec.

20% DR from Blur
65% Increased armor from energy Shield = How much DR would this be? I honestly have no idea. It depends on armor scaling which we don't know much. Would it be safe to say 10% DR?
Frost Nova to stun for 3 seconds every 9 seconds (a 33% uptime)
40% increased armor when Archon is cast
30% DR after a teleport for 4 seconds
vs
30% DR
15% dodge
25% less damage for some enemies (very hard to calculate). You have 0 radius AoE skills so only enemies in a line will be doing 25% less damage. On average, you could say 3 enemies are attacking your front arc and only 1 of them has the debuff.

The DR cancel each other out. I'm going to say the situational surviveability cancel each other out as well (teleport and Archon vs 25% less damage debuff). I'm sure you'll claim that you can somehow debuff every enemy even though all of your skills are straight line or single target... it's a non factor.

So really it comes down to 15% dodge vs 33% uptime stun. 33% of the time taking no damage or 15%... which one is higher?

Survivability Conclusion
Very slight nod to Monk due to healing


Also, a lot of those abilities help the entire group (aka would help the wizard too) and won't stack with other classes debuffs (the 25% less damage debuff).

If you want to say you are more valuable because you help out the group more, I agree 100%. I think you are discounting the wizard too much if you say he'll do crappy damage and won't be able to survive though.

Disclaimer... the above math doesn't prove anything, there are tons of assumptions... it's a heck of a lot better than just throwing out opinions though and I think at the very least it proves that you'll put out respectable.

If you disagree with these, I can rerun the numbers.
Assumptions:
2-3 monsters hit with spec blade
3-4 monsters hit with radius AoE (sleet storm)
2-3 monsters hit with line AoE cast by melee class
75% sleet storm uptime with absorption energy armor rune
65% increased armor = 10% DR

Edited by Ruppgu, 10 April 2012 - 08:04 PM.

[Sumsarr]

Ruppgu, on 10 April 2012 - 08:01 PM, said:

Wizard Damage
235% Spammable AoE about 10 yards (which will hit 3-4 monsters on average to be 705-940 DPS.. 822 avg)
337% avg from spamming Spectral Blades (Assuming it will hit 2-3 on avg)
Not enough information about Archon to make an estimation, I'll completely disregard this even though it's a large increase of DPS when it's active.
Lets go with an uptime of 3/4 Sleet Storm 1/4 Spectral Blades.
(882+882+882+337) / 4 =745 DPS

337% damage from Spectral Blades? "Ok", I'll let that one slip. Ask yourself why ANYONE would choose to play with Magic Missiles (~110-145% weapon damage) when they could use Thrown Spectral Blades: "337%" weapon damage. Also wonder if you've tried beta. You're glad if you hit 2 targets with blades.

Ruppgu, on 10 April 2012 - 08:01 PM, said:

Monk Damage
240% + 33% if buffs active (line AoE Spender (aka, once every 5 attacks) The problem is... it's a melee character doing a line aoe. Line aoe's are great for ranged classes because you can line it up. Line AoE's are so-so for melee because the monsters are surrounding you so that they can attack. They aren't lined up very nicely due to this and you often only hit 2-4 monsters (sometimes more though). I'll even give the benefit of the doubt here and say you have your buffs active to make it (546-1092 DPS.. 819 avg)

When you're generating spirit
140 + 33 = 173 DPS for 2 hits
250 + 33 = 283 hitting about 2-4 monsters = 566-1132DPS (849 DPS avg)
For ease of use... we'll see 6 normal attacks and then a tail kick
173+173+849+173+173+849+819 = 3209/7=458DPS

You don't add 33% to the damage source, that's not correct math. You multiply it. The correct way would be 140 x 1,33 = 186 and 283 x 1,33 = 376. I also think you underestimates Backlash rune in mantra of evasion: When dodging an attack, ALL enemies around you take 47% weapon damage. It's at the moment impossible to tell how big this "chance" is, but if it's just 25% the dps will be 61. There is, however, no way of telling as it is.

You do by the way don't need to worry about line damage with Monk. If you've tried him in beta you know why. Just use deadly reach with shift micro and it's.. well.. deadly?

Ruppgu, on 10 April 2012 - 08:01 PM, said:

Damage Conclusion
458 vs the 745DPS avg from the Wizard. I'm not counting the dodge mantra because it says "chance" to do 35% damage so I'm not sure which numbers to use. It wouldn't add much more than 10-20 DPS though.

Here is you major error when comparing builds and damage: You have good damage, but no way to use it. The AoE on storm is REALLY small. You plan on running up to mobs and using storm, while the monk dashes saving himself 2 seconds every pack. Sure, you can teleport once every 15 seconds, but that will require time and 20% of your arcane power. This mobility can't be put on paper when comparing melee classes. Those 1-2 seconds are, if using your calculations: 458- (458 * 2) =  458-916 points of damage.

Ruppgu, on 10 April 2012 - 08:01 PM, said:

Surviveability
Ward + Blades vs Heal = slight nod to Monk (Heal comes out to be 413 health/sec if you spam it exactly on cooldown (which is an unreasonable assumption) + it spends spirit). Ward is 310 and it's difficult to say how much blades will be but I doubt it'll be 100 health/sec.

Anyone who played Diablo 2 hardcore will agree that healing over time is inferior to healing (compare health potions and rejuvenation potions). Hard to estimate how valuable ward will be as a passive. One thing I know for sure tho is that spectral blades rune will be useless, at least with your build. The heal is really small compared to the damage and your build has no additional crit chance.

Ruppgu, on 10 April 2012 - 08:01 PM, said:

Surviveability
20% DR from Blur
65% Increased armor from energy Shield = How much DR would this be? I honestly have no idea. It depends on armor scaling which we don't know much. Would it be safe to say 10% DR?
Frost Nova to stun for 3 seconds every 9 seconds (a 33% uptime)
40% increased armor when Archon is cast
30% DR after a teleport for 4 seconds
vs
30% DR
15% dodge
25% less damage for some enemies (very hard to calculate). You have 0 radius AoE skills so only enemies in a line will be doing 25% less damage. On average, you could say 3 enemies are attacking your front arc and only 1 of them has the debuff.

The DR cancel each other out. I'm going to say the situational surviveability cancel each other out as well (teleport and Archon vs 25% less damage debuff). I'm sure you'll claim that you can somehow debuff every enemy even though all of your skills are straight line or single target... it's a non factor.

So really it comes down to 15% dodge vs 33% uptime stun. 33% of the time taking no damage or 15%... which one is higher?

Many errors here, so I'll be wary of where I start pointing them out:

-Blur is on MELEE damage only. It doesn't work on any type of range what so ever. The monk reduction is DR is on everything. They do NOT cancel eachother out. Monk comes out way on top.

-Frost nova does not stun, it just causes enemies not to move. That is good for range wizards, for a melee wizard it is ok.

-You will sustain archon about 25% of the time. Let's say that's 20% more armor all the time instead. You still do not come out on top on DR.

-Monk build does not have 15% dodge, it has 33%. That's a HUGE difference.

- -25% damage on enemies will be activated about 100% of the time: The tail kick is a AOE similar to disintegrate and dodge mantra will cause ALL enemies around me to burn (take damage). The -25% damage will therefore work when needed. If there are many enemies, I need it. If there are many enemies, there are many hits. If there are many hits, there are many dodges. If there are many dodges, they all get -25% damage.
If there are many enemies, i dodge and causes damage. If there are few enemies, I will hit them all with combo, dashing strike or kicks. It's basicly always on.

This is what we're looking at when comparing melee monk and melee wizard surviveability:

20% dr from melee
~12% dr from range and melee
30% dr after teleport. Teleport has 16 seconds cooldown. To make calculations simple, the average DR will be 30/4: 7,5 DR

19,5% DR from all and 20% from melee, making 40% vs melee (if they stack without diminish)

Frost Nova snare if you need to run away

vs
30% DR from melee and range
33% dodge = ~33% DR from melee and range
25% less damage

This makes enemies do:

(1-0,7)/1,3 = 0,53% damage to you. Hence, we got 47% DR to all sources.

Now, add dodge, which always is activated: 47+33 = 80% DR.

NOW, add one with everything and monk will have MAX resistance to all sources by simply maxing out one kind of resistance.

Real surviveability conclusion:
Monk survives so much better, they cannot even be compared. Wizard will deal the same amount of damage, but that comes as no suprise.

[Ruppgu]

Sumsarr, on 10 April 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

-Blur is on MELEE damage only. It doesn't work on any type of range what so ever. The monk reduction is DR is on everything. They do NOT cancel eachother out. Monk comes out way on top.

-Frost nova does not stun, it just causes enemies not to move. That is good for range wizards, for a melee wizard it is ok.

-You will sustain archon about 25% of the time. Let's say that's 20% more armor all the time instead. You still do not come out on top on DR.

-Monk build does not have 15% dodge, it has 33%. That's a HUGE difference.

- -25% damage on enemies will be activated about 100% of the time: The tail kick is a AOE similar to disintegrate and dodge mantra will cause ALL enemies around me to burn (take damage). The -25% damage will therefore work when needed. If there are many enemies, I need it. If there are many enemies, there are many hits. If there are many hits, there are many dodges. If there are many dodges, they all get -25% damage.
If there are many enemies, i dodge and causes damage. If there are few enemies, I will hit them all with combo, dashing strike or kicks. It's basicly always on.

- Even if you're correct about the damage calculations, that wouldn't account for the massive amount of damage the wizard puts out compared to the monk. (also, the wizard +20% was not added correctly as well then)

-Deadly reach rune is not a normal line AoE, it's much much wider. (but yes it's awesome range in beta)

-Good point on Blur... this gives the monk the advantage on ranged but a wash for melee.

-Frost Nova Freezes which is the same thing as a stun. The enemies do not keep attacking.

-How does the monk have 33% dodge? you get 15% for 3 seconds after you use the mantra... that's neglectable and not even worth including though.

-Very good point on the -25% debuff. This of course depends on the proc chance but this does help the -25% damage debuff a lot.

I'll change Survivability to "Monk Advantage if solo, slight monk nod if grouped (due to aura's and debuffs being shared)"

The monk has the advantage in survivability but to say that they aren't comparable isn't right. It will be interesting to see how the whole melee wizard thing pans out but I wouldn't be surprised if they're viable... especially in a group setting where they won't be taking all the hits. I think Blizzard did a great job at making options for casters.

BTW... cool looking monk build.