32 replies to this topic

[Speaker]

The way you explain efficiency isn't really correct.  You may get more dmg per hatred, but you also generate hatred at a much slower rate.  The way I explain is probably more accurate.  The % of time spent using a generator vs a spender and then comparing the dmg difference between those 2 abilties.

[Mysticjbyrd]

Speaker, on 03 April 2012 - 10:51 PM, said:

The way you explain efficiency isn't really correct.  You may get more dmg per hatred, but you also generate hatred at a much slower rate.  The way I explain is probably more accurate.  The % of time spent using a generator vs a spender and then comparing the dmg difference between those 2 abilties.

Damage per resource is the EXACT way you calculate efficiency....

You cannot just look at dps... If you want to min/max you need to use the proper weapon per spec.

PS:  

Base hatred is 125, not 150 now.
The difference between the ratios you listed is from the natural regen, not the use of spenders and generators.  If you attack twice as fast you generate twice as fast using generators, but spend twice as fast using spenders.  AKA no difference.

Though you are right. you will get more slows and whatnot from fast weapons.

Edited by Mysticjbyrd, 03 April 2012 - 11:12 PM.

[Speaker]

Well maybe I didn't read your post very well, but I didn't use damage in my calculations, only rates at which you would generate hatred, including the use of generators and the rate at which hatred was spent.  Here is the math and tell me what you think.  This is with corrected base hatred and a different weapon speed.

Total hatred: 125 Hatred
Base hatred generation: 4 Hatred/sec
Weapon speed: 1.5 Attacks/sec
Hatred generator: 3 Hatred/attack
Hatred spender: -25 Hatred/attack

So first calculate the total hatred generated per second:
4 hatred/sec + 3 hatred/attack * 1.5 attacks/sec = 8.5 hatred/sec

Now calculate how long it takes to go from 0 hatred to cap:
125 hatred / 8.5 hatred/sec = 14.7 seconds spent casting generators

Now calculate Total hatred spent/sec:
-25 hatred/attack * 1.5 attacks/sec = -37.5 hatred/sec

Find the Difference between hatred spent and base hatred generation:
-37.5 hatred/sec + 4 hatred/sec = -33.5 hatred/sec

Last, find the time it takes to spend all hatred back down to the initial 0 hatred, completing a full cycle:
-125 hatred / -33.5 hatred/sec = 3.73 seconds

So you can find a ratio between these two numbers. 14.7 seconds spent generating for every 3.73 seconds spent spending is 3.94 generators for every 1 spender.  You can also find the uptime for using spenders and for generators by taking each of their times divided by the total time, which comes to 79.8% of the time using generators and 20.2% of the time using spenders.

Now obviously there is a difference between using a 250% dmg spender for every attack vs using a 115% dmg generator every attack.  Using only spenders would be doing 2.17 times more dps vs generators.

Now to find exactly how much more dps you would be doing vs your base dps you would have to take the dmg of the spender multiplied by the uptime plus the spender dmg multiplied by its uptime.  This would mean your 115% dmg generator * the 0.798 uptime + your 250% dmg spender * 0.202 uptime = an average of 142.32% base dps per cycle.

You could do the same thing with any weapon speed.  Each time the dps will be different, favoring slower weapons, but like I said there are plenty of benefits to fast weapons that make them a better choice.

Also like I said in my other post, the difference is so small you won't even notice it.  A 3.87% increase in going from a 1.6 attacks/sec weapon to a 1.1 attacks/sec weapon if they have equal base dps.

Edit: Fixed an error in my calculations, sorry for that.

Edited by Speaker, 04 April 2012 - 11:55 PM.

[Nokturnal1]

FixtionFXReality, on 03 April 2012 - 08:14 PM, said:

2h Bow + Quiver = Best Combo in the game.

Remember all Quivers include minimum of 10% IAS.
If you were to use Windforce + Quiver - You're looking at a powerful combo with high DPS and Attacks Per Second.

I hope this were true. Currently the Highest DPS bow I found in the beta is a One handed Simple Crossbow.. So I had to scratch my head and think, "So whats the point of the 2 handed bow? Its slower and worse than this one!"

Once we're out of the Beta, I am interested into seeing how these weapons would scale. In Diablo 2 it was obvious, the crossbows typically did more dmg, but less speed.

[Casanova]

I will most likely try and use a Crossbow, mainly because my main sources of damage will come from Spike Trap, Multishot, Sentry or FoN.

[Zhain]

I assume we have to also take into account that a faster weapon will spend Hatred faster as well.

This seems a little lopsided, as each offensive skill costs the same amt of hatred regardless of the weapon.  So your Cluster Arrow, for example, does a lot less damage for the same amount of hatred.  Sure you can cast it faster, but that's not a great idea.

Should there be a change that Hatred spent/generated by skills is normalized to attack speed?  As of now, it seems like you can't just choose what you want based on playstyle.

Edited by Zhain, 05 April 2012 - 12:29 AM.

[Speaker]

Zhain, on 05 April 2012 - 12:27 AM, said:

I assume we have to also take into account that a faster weapon will spend Hatred faster as well.

This seems a little lopsided, as each offensive skill costs the same amt of hatred regardless of the weapon.  So your Cluster Arrow, for example, does a lot less damage for the same amount of hatred.  Sure you can cast it faster, but that's not a great idea.

Should there be a change that Hatred spent/generated by skills is normalized to attack speed?  As of now, it seems like you can't just choose what you want based on playstyle.

There is literally almost no difference.  See my calculations above.  The only real difference is that a slow weapon generates and spends its hatred slower.  This means a bigger portion of the hatred you generate comes from your base hatred regeneration.  This also makes it so a higher portion of your total time attacking is used on hatred spenders, which inherently do slightly more damage.  Overall though the increase is so small.  The difference between a 1.1 attack/sec weapon and a 1.6 attack/sec weapon is only about 4%.  Faster weapons also have their own benefits, meaning you can choose based on your playstyle and you shouldn't notice a difference between how fast monsters are dying.

Edited by Speaker, 05 April 2012 - 01:33 AM.

[Mysticjbyrd]

"Cluster Arrows Dmg & Dmg per Expended hatred with each weapon
2h Xbow = 100 dmg * 2.9 = 290 dmg
290 dmg / 42 hatred = 6.9 damage per hatred

DW 1h Xbow = 50 dmg * 2.9 = 145 dmg
145 dmg / 46 hatred = 3.15 damage per hatred"

If you spent 3 Cluster Arrows,
2h = 870  dmg
DW = 435 dmg + 3 generators

That's a huge difference in front end unloading power, which in D3 is quite important.

Edited by Mysticjbyrd, 05 April 2012 - 07:13 PM.

[Speaker]

It's pointless to compare weapon damages when we don't even know what the actual damage ranges are going to look like and don't have 2 actual weapons to compare.  Also, considering your front-loaded damage lasts for only 3 attacks in 2.72 seconds in your example it might be good for fighting packs of 2 enemies, but I also guarantee you aren't going to regenerate all that hatred back before you get to the next group of enemies.  This becomes even less important as the difficulty progresses because it will take you longer and longer to kill the enemies.  I just don't think front-loaded weapon damage is worth looking into.  Your best bet is going with the combination that gives you the best overall dps, whether it is a fast weapon or a slow one.

Edited by Speaker, 06 April 2012 - 12:47 AM.

[Mysticjbyrd]

Speaker, on 05 April 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

It's pointless to compare weapon damages when we don't even know what the actual damage ranges are going to look like and don't have 2 actual weapons to compare.  Also, considering your front-loaded damage lasts for only 3 attacks in 2.72 seconds in your example it might be good for fighting packs of 2 enemies, but I also guarantee you aren't going to regenerate all that hatred back before you get to the next group of enemies.  This becomes even less important as the difficulty progresses because it will take you longer and longer to kill the enemies.  I just don't think front-loaded weapon damage is worth looking into.  Your best bet is going with the combination that gives you the best overall dps, whether it is a fast weapon or a slow one.

Fast Wpn + High resource cost = bad plan

Its really that simple.  Use the best weapon you got, sure, but be mindful of your spec as well.  This isn't D2 where you can't switch specs, and if inferno is as hard as they say you need every advantage you can get.  Though I seriously doubt mobs even in inferno can take 3 cluster arrows to the face without some causalities.  After all this is a fast paced game.  Even if that's not the case, once geared, it will be the case.

Edited by Mysticjbyrd, 06 April 2012 - 11:51 PM.

[PantheraOnca]

We also have to take in to account passive and on-hit hatred regen (marked for death, mortal enemy. unsure if there is a hatred on hit item property). I'm betting that dual wield will be able to make better use of increased hatred generation than a 2hed weapon will. I.E. that you will be able to spend that extra regened hatred faster than a 2hed setup, or perhaps there will be a point at which additional hatred generation will be of no use to 2hed setup.

Then the question becomes is the increased frequency of less efficient hatred spending resulting in more dps? we'll need stats to see this for certain.

It may also be the case that dual wielding isn't as good, but a hand xbow and a shield will be necessary to live in inferno.

Edited by PantheraOnca, 07 April 2012 - 02:26 PM.

[Red_Panda]

Speaker, on 03 April 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

If you want to know what it better it is little more than a simple calculation.

For bow and crossbow it is the Dps multiplied by the 10% increase attack speed from your quiver.  So if it was a 40 dps when you would do 40*1.1 and get 44 dps.

For dual wield you simply take the average of both weapons DPS and multiply by the 15% increase attack speed from dual wielding.  So if you have weapon 1 that does 45 dps and weapon 2 that does 35 dps you do (45+35)/2 * 1.15 and get 46 dps.

Even though both examples have an average of 40 dps you will get a slightly better bonus from the dual wielding.

As of right now most bows are 1.4 attacks per second with Windforce being the exception and slightly faster at 1.6 attacks per second.  Most crossbows are slow at 1.1 to 1.3 attacks per second, and hand crossbows are pretty fast usually at around 1.6 attacks per second.

The reason attack speed can come into play is if you have items with +dmg on them.  For each +1 dmg on a 1.1 attacks per second weapon results in 1.1 dps, where each +1 dmg on a fast weapon at around 1.8 attacks per second results in 1.8 dps.

As of right now we do not know what will be best because blizzard hasn't released any of the stats on any of the items.  But usually those simple calculations can easily find out if an item is better for you, or you could just use the in-game stats screen, which displays your exact dps and also takes into account crit chance and crit dmg as well.

Pretty sure it'd be 43 DPS not 44...

[rozmata]

What you will use will mostly depend on your defensive skills and point in the game. Let us know first your build and what stage you want to use it on and with what type of gear other than weapon. Your gear will be probably focused on crits or damage modifiers and your defensive skills will require high discipline regeneration or they won't. You can also tell us what play style you think you will use (mostly in regards to defensive abilities). Do you want to vault away when mobs approach or use caltrops to slow them down, etc.
When we know your defensive play style (and point in the game, items, etc) we can better tell what weapon is best for you.