80 replies to this topic

[jaclashflash]

Sumsarr, on 31 March 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

When making assumptions about Scatter, please consider that there are not always 4 mobs (1 mob and 3 nearby mobs to receive the split arrows). In many cases you might find your arrow split into 3 arrows with nothing to hit.

The chances of the other runes piercing and hitting an additional target is higher because:

1. they just need 1 additional target
2. they can hit the same target they pierced (which scatter PROBABLY can't. Would be really OP if it could)

Scatter will therefore blow more damage into thin air, instead of mobs, more on average than the other runes.

Its only OP if the 3 arrows are guided and can pierce.

Its merely on par with the others if the 3 arrows are guided, but can't pierce.  If the 3 arrows from scatter are not guided, then scatter becomes crap.  You would need to hit 1.5/3 mobs just to beat out the unruned version of hungering arrow.  Hungering arrow is a great single target ability, so I can't see taking that niche away to make it a mediocre aoe ability.

Edited by jaclashflash, 31 March 2012 - 09:24 PM.

[Glowyrm]

Sumsarr, on 31 March 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

When making assumptions about Scatter, please consider that there are not always 4 mobs (1 mob and 3 nearby mobs to receive the split arrows). In many cases you might find your arrow split into 3 arrows with nothing to hit.

The chances of the other runes piercing and hitting an additional target is higher because:

1. they just need 1 additional target
2. they can hit the same target they pierced (which scatter PROBABLY can't. Would be really OP if it could)

Scatter will therefore blow more damage into thin air, instead of mobs, more on average than the other runes.

That's the tradeoff though. Shatter can do the most (when they all hit) but that's only going to happen against larger packs. The other runes can do similar damage in larger packs but since they can also do so against smaller packs and single target, the damage is usually a little lower (even though their potential is higher, just not as likely to get enough piercings, and even if they do hit 4 targets, it all happens "slower" than Shatter's damage).

Having the numbers to look at is great, but one must also look at HOW the damage is delivered. Shatter is all at once, but due to it's mechanics it's potential is limited to hordes of monsters. The others can do really well against single targets but their pack damage is usually a little lower and slower (Shatter is bursty since it's practically 4 hits simultaneously).

That's just how I look at it of course. I'm not the math wiz like the other guys in this thread so I'm trying to look at it more from a mechanics and circumstance standpoint. Maybe I'm completely wrong and not making any sense, lol.

Edited by Glowyrm, 31 March 2012 - 09:43 PM.

[Red_Panda]

Sumsarr, on 31 March 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

When making assumptions about Scatter, please consider that there are not always 4 mobs (1 mob and 3 nearby mobs to receive the split arrows). In many cases you might find your arrow split into 3 arrows with nothing to hit.

The chances of the other runes piercing and hitting an additional target is higher because:

1. they just need 1 additional target
2. they can hit the same target they pierced (which scatter PROBABLY can't. Would be really OP if it could)

Scatter will therefore blow more damage into thin air, instead of mobs, more on average than the other runes.

Sure - but you don't have to use said rune in any situation where there is less than three mobs.

[Sumsarr]

Red_Panda, on 01 April 2012 - 02:47 AM, said:

Sumsarr, on 31 March 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

When making assumptions about Scatter, please consider that there are not always 4 mobs (1 mob and 3 nearby mobs to receive the split arrows). In many cases you might find your arrow split into 3 arrows with nothing to hit.

The chances of the other runes piercing and hitting an additional target is higher because:

1. they just need 1 additional target
2. they can hit the same target they pierced (which scatter PROBABLY can't. Would be really OP if it could)

Scatter will therefore blow more damage into thin air, instead of mobs, more on average than the other runes.

Sure - but you don't have to use said rune in any situation where there is less than three mobs.

Switching runes will cause delay and the loss of valor buff.

My original point was anyway, that in all those calculations on the rune you assume that the arrows will hit, which they won't a lot of the time.

I'm pretty sure that the shattered arrows btw won't be able to hit the same target they originated from. Why would anyone prefer any of the other runes?

Devouring arrow:  70% bonus  dmg if the arrow pierces.

Shatter shot: 230% bonus dmg if the arrow pierces.

hmm..

[Red_Panda]

Sumsarr, on 01 April 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

Red_Panda, on 01 April 2012 - 02:47 AM, said:

Sumsarr, on 31 March 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

When making assumptions about Scatter, please consider that there are not always 4 mobs (1 mob and 3 nearby mobs to receive the split arrows). In many cases you might find your arrow split into 3 arrows with nothing to hit.

The chances of the other runes piercing and hitting an additional target is higher because:

1. they just need 1 additional target
2. they can hit the same target they pierced (which scatter PROBABLY can't. Would be really OP if it could)

Scatter will therefore blow more damage into thin air, instead of mobs, more on average than the other runes.

Sure - but you don't have to use said rune in any situation where there is less than three mobs.

Switching runes will cause delay and the loss of valor buff.

My original point was anyway, that in all those calculations on the rune you assume that the arrows will hit, which they won't a lot of the time.

I'm pretty sure that the shattered arrows btw won't be able to hit the same target they originated from. Why would anyone prefer any of the other runes?

Devouring arrow:  70% bonus  dmg if the arrow pierces.

Shatter shot: 230% bonus dmg if the arrow pierces.

hmm..

Nowhere did I say to switch runes. Are you going to be using hungering arrow on a boss? Grab a single target skill for a boss and if there are less than 3 mobs left alive, use a smaller aoe or the single target. That's what I was getting at. I don't plan on swapping runes all that often.

[Sumsarr]

Red_Panda, on 01 April 2012 - 09:17 AM, said:

Nowhere did I say to switch runes. Are you going to be using hungering arrow on a boss? Grab a single target skill for a boss and if there are less than 3 mobs left alive, use a smaller aoe or the single target. That's what I was getting at. I don't plan on swapping runes all that often.

Aha, sorry for misinterpreting.

Anyway, shooting hungering arrow with shatter on 4 mobs is no guarantee that the shots will hit. Mobs might:

- flee
- burry
- fly
- go invis
- die from merc
- die from teamate
- die from companion
- die from trap
- die from dot

Of course all of this can happen with other runes as well, but as they only require 1 target (instead of 4) to maximize their efficiency they will be less likely to be affected.

This is no biggy. The rune will probably still be good. I'm just saying: It's not as good as it's on paper.

[Red_Panda]

Sumsarr, on 01 April 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

Red_Panda, on 01 April 2012 - 09:17 AM, said:

Nowhere did I say to switch runes. Are you going to be using hungering arrow on a boss? Grab a single target skill for a boss and if there are less than 3 mobs left alive, use a smaller aoe or the single target. That's what I was getting at. I don't plan on swapping runes all that often.

Aha, sorry for misinterpreting.

Anyway, shooting hungering arrow with shatter on 4 mobs is no guarantee that the shots will hit. Mobs might:

- flee
- burry
- fly
- go invis
- die from merc
- die from teamate
- die from companion
- die from trap
- die from dot

Of course all of this can happen with other runes as well, but as they only require 1 target (instead of 4) to maximize their efficiency they will be less likely to be affected.

This is no biggy. The rune will probably still be good. I'm just saying: It's not as good as it's on paper.

That's why I say you should have a skill for every situation . My build probably won't even include HA, so :3.

[jaclashflash]

Red_Panda, on 01 April 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

Sumsarr, on 01 April 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

Red_Panda, on 01 April 2012 - 09:17 AM, said:

Nowhere did I say to switch runes. Are you going to be using hungering arrow on a boss? Grab a single target skill for a boss and if there are less than 3 mobs left alive, use a smaller aoe or the single target. That's what I was getting at. I don't plan on swapping runes all that often.

Aha, sorry for misinterpreting.

Anyway, shooting hungering arrow with shatter on 4 mobs is no guarantee that the shots will hit. Mobs might:

- flee
- burry
- fly
- go invis
- die from merc
- die from teamate
- die from companion
- die from trap
- die from dot

Of course all of this can happen with other runes as well, but as they only require 1 target (instead of 4) to maximize their efficiency they will be less likely to be affected.

This is no biggy. The rune will probably still be good. I'm just saying: It's not as good as it's on paper.

That's why I say you should have a skill for every situation . My build probably won't even include HA, so :3.

If shatter is not guided, then there is almost no situation that its better that one of the other choices.  
You need 1.5 out of the 3 arrows to hit, just to make the runeskill better than the unruned hungering arrow.
You need all 3/3 arrows to hit for it to put out as much dmg as say puncturing.

[gli]

Again, the more fundamental issue is that the runes *only* modify dps and don't change how we use or look at the ability.

Rend Mutilate vs Lacerate.
70%/s base for 3 = 210%
90%/s Lacerate for 3 = 270%
70%/s Mutilate for 5 = 350%

At least those have slight differences, since one is better in an infinite rage situation and the other is better in a DPC. The difference between runes for Hungering just don't differ enough, which again leads me to believe that they will be changing the runes.

[Mysticjbyrd]

I am fine with the runes only slightly changing the way it works.

[Glowyrm]

jaclashflash, on 01 April 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

If shatter is not guided, then there is almost no situation that its better that one of the other choices.  
You need 1.5 out of the 3 arrows to hit, just to make the runeskill better than the unruned hungering arrow.
You need all 3/3 arrows to hit for it to put out as much dmg as say puncturing.

For it to put out as much damage as say Puncturing does over time. Puncturing has to pierce 3 times for it to do as much damage as Shatter does. I will assume that all the arrows will hit because if I were to choose it I would only be firing it into gigantic swarms.

Shatter is more "bursty" in nature against larger packs. I see it as a fair trade off and something worth considering before dismissing it.

So mathematically it may not be better, but when looking at the speed in which it delivers it's damage, it should get more credit imo.

Sumsarr, on 01 April 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

Anyway, shooting hungering arrow with shatter on 4 mobs is no guarantee that the shots will hit. Mobs might:

- flee
- burry
- fly
- go invis
- die from merc
- die from teamate
- die from companion
- die from trap
- die from dot

Of course all of this can happen with other runes as well, but as they only require 1 target (instead of 4) to maximize their efficiency they will be less likely to be affected...

Like I said earlier though, it really shouldn't be used against a group that small. It's potential lies in using it against hordes of monsters.

The damage is also practically instant opposed to Devouring, Puncturing, and Cinder runes "ramping up" to do their full damage (they have to move along single targets at a time before landing at their full potential).

So you trade off single target / small pack viability for large-pack-burst damage.

Edited by Glowyrm, 02 April 2012 - 04:43 PM.

[Antirepublican]

bump for posterity

[jaclashflash]

What do you guys think about the current wording on devouring shot?

I take it to mean that you won't get the 70% dmg bonus after the 1st pierce.
Do you think this is accurate?  The # seems kinda low when you do it that way....

[naahjly]

Yeah im also concerned about that. I don´t really have time to read the whole thread. But what would be your choice of Rune as SINGLE TARGET dps? . I think devouring might be the best, am i wrong? :|

[Sumsarr]

naahjly, on 07 May 2012 - 10:15 AM, said:

Yeah im also concerned about that. I don´t really have time to read the whole thread. But what would be your choice of Rune as SINGLE TARGET dps? . I think devouring might be the best, am i wrong? :|

That is correct. Devouring is best against bosses, but against single mobs it might have too much overkill dmg.

[naahjly]

Okey, thank you

[Antirepublican]

Devouring arrow is only at 215% dmg, and its dmg is very spiky.  Worst choice for any situation imo.

Assuming that Spray of teeth hits the initial target, which should obviously happen, then it becomes by far the best rune at roughly 70% crit chance.  At that point not only does it do equal single target dps, but it has the AoE component to boot.

Edited by Antirepublican, 13 May 2012 - 04:05 PM.

[italofoca]

Sumsarr, on 31 March 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

When making assumptions about Scatter, please consider that there are not always 4 mobs (1 mob and 3 nearby mobs to receive the split arrows). In many cases you might find your arrow split into 3 arrows with nothing to hit.

The chances of the other runes piercing and hitting an additional target is higher because:

1. they just need 1 additional target
2. they can hit the same target they pierced (which scatter PROBABLY can't. Would be really OP if it could)

Scatter will therefore blow more damage into thin air, instead of mobs, more on average than the other runes.

They are assuming the 3 after split arrow are homing so they will almost allways hit.
In case they are not homing this rune is really weak. Already explaned.

[Prunetracy]

Well, for what it's worth:

The split arrows from Scatter do pierce and are seeking.

However, be aware that the homing mechanism on hungering arrow is not 100% reliable. I've seen plenty of arrows fail to acquire a target even when one seems to be in range. Sometimes they hit a barrier and disappear before they turn around as well. At any rate, it's the rune I'm using right now, and it even looks pretty awesome.

Oh, someone asked somewhere. Yes, all three splits can come back and hit the same target.

[Phaentom]

Prunetracy, on 16 May 2012 - 04:41 AM, said:

Yes, all three splits can come back and hit the same target.

I only used it for one act but I was unable to replicate this, I know what you mean by unreliable homing, but as far as single target goes ive only ever had one of the arrows come back and hit the original target, even when theres only one mob in the room.