40 replies to this topic

[jaclashflash]

They do no damage and aren't even a viable meat shields. I know it's a beta and the game is in Normal difficulty but imagine in nightmare / hell / inferno...

Just for reference, some of the monsters in fields of misery can 1 shot your dogs, even if you're level 13.

Edit:  Hopefully the double dmg is only a gimmick for beta testers, otherwise it looks kinda grim for the doggies.

Edited by jaclashflash, 14 March 2012 - 02:54 AM.

[Myk_Kudybka]

I agree, Zombie Dogs can barely survive against regular mobs in the beta. I hope they at least scale in health at higher difficulties like the Necro's summons in Diablo 2.

[AcidReign]

Dogs certainly need a upgrade. Not a very large one though - they do what they are meant to do.

On another note, I don't think Sacrifice should kill all three at once. It's a 60 second cooldown on the dogs.

[Discopolice]

they are supposed to die

[Greenjoke]

if you want to have a minion tanking build then it will get much easier as you level

when you get complete access to minion related passives, runes, and gear they will be viable meatshields and do considerable damage

[Honsou]

They should shorten or remove altogether the cooldown to summon new dogs. Really annoying to sacrifice them and not be able to summon up a new batch.

[Sabvre]

AcidReign, on 14 March 2012 - 03:06 AM, said:

Dogs certainly need a upgrade. Not a very large one though - they do what they are meant to do.

On another note, I don't think Sacrifice should kill all three at once. It's a 60 second cooldown on the dogs.

However, you have passives and other skills that give you the ability to create a continuing wave of zombie dogs. Including the chance to respawn dogs after sacrifice.

[Sabvre]

Greenjoke, on 14 March 2012 - 03:07 PM, said:

if you want to have a minion tanking build then it will get much easier as you level

when you get complete access to minion related passives, runes, and gear they will be viable meatshields and do considerable damage

9+2% x 4 = 44%... thats not really considerable... but its decent.

[Sabvre]

jaclashflash, on 14 March 2012 - 02:46 AM, said:

They do no damage and aren't even a viable meat shields. I know it's a beta and the game is in Normal difficulty but imagine in nightmare / hell / inferno...

Just for reference, some of the monsters in fields of misery can 1 shot your dogs, even if you're level 13.

Edit:  Hopefully the double dmg is only a gimmick for beta testers, otherwise it looks kinda grim for the doggies.

You bitch too much. Zombie dogs isn't meant to be additional characters... its meant to be a spell.. something that DOES need to be be refreshed.

you get Zombie Handler + Jungle fortitude and thats 1.92x damage they can take.

[bidmal]

Yeah, it actually sucks that dogs aren't viable "minions" anymore... Though i still have them in my HC build for 10% dmg reduction on char (those 50% earlier were so great... ol' good times ), and added sacrifice as a big part of a build.

[MrMilo]

We have to wait and see how they turn out in later difficulties. Saying that they need a buff just because they die in the beta is not a good enough reason.

[Barrier]

MrMilo, on 14 March 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

We have to wait and see how they turn out in later difficulties. Saying that they need a buff just because they die in the beta is not a good enough reason.

they die too easy thats good enough reason for a buff no matter where it is:D

[bidmal]

I just think their hp+defense should scale with gear too in addition to damage... Like make them have "20% of your maximum hp and 50% of your defense/resistances" for example. Since Blizz tend to make all skills dependable on current characters stats, that would be nice.

Edited by bidmal, 14 March 2012 - 04:09 PM.

[jaclashflash]

Sabvre, on 14 March 2012 - 03:08 PM, said:

AcidReign, on 14 March 2012 - 03:06 AM, said:

Dogs certainly need a upgrade. Not a very large one though - they do what they are meant to do.

On another note, I don't think Sacrifice should kill all three at once. It's a 60 second cooldown on the dogs.

However, you have passives and other skills that give you the ability to create a continuing wave of zombie dogs. Including the chance to respawn dogs after sacrifice.

Those arent even remotely reliable...

Sabvre, on 14 March 2012 - 03:13 PM, said:

jaclashflash, on 14 March 2012 - 02:46 AM, said:

They do no damage and aren't even a viable meat shields. I know it's a beta and the game is in Normal difficulty but imagine in nightmare / hell / inferno...

Just for reference, some of the monsters in fields of misery can 1 shot your dogs, even if you're level 13.

Edit:  Hopefully the double dmg is only a gimmick for beta testers, otherwise it looks kinda grim for the doggies.

You bitch too much. Zombie dogs isn't meant to be additional characters... its meant to be a spell.. something that DOES need to be be refreshed.

you get Zombie Handler + Jungle fortitude and thats 1.92x damage they can take.

And you make terrilbe comments too much.  Did you even consider armor dmg reduction?

Zombie Handler + Jungle fortitude allows the dogs to take 1.5x before death.
Ohh and you can use jungle fortitude in beta.

A = (1 - dmg reduction from armor)
h = health of dogs
x= dmg dogs can take

A*x=h
(1-0.2)*x = 100
x = 125 dmg

Z = zombie handler = 0.8
J = Jungle fortiture increases health of dogs by 20%.

A*Z*x=h*Z
(1-0.2)*0.8*x = 100*1.2
0.64*x =120
x =187.5


187.5/120 = 1.5

Edited by jaclashflash, 14 March 2012 - 04:35 PM.

[Sythrasz]

It does make sense from a design point of view that the dogs should require additional sacrifice than just placing it on the skill slot in order to be tanks. However, pointing this out is not the same as addressing their viability. % increases of unviable amounts of health could still easily result in slightly higher unviable amounts of health. The possibility that the current dogs are simply too weak, even with all available enhancements, exists. Pointing out that there exists ways to make them better does not equal that they're good.
WD is rollercoastering a bit at the moment, so I doubt we should read more into it than that they're trying to find the lower limit for viability for the dogs. We're in the tuning stage after all

[jaclashflash]

MrMilo, on 14 March 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

We have to wait and see how they turn out in later difficulties. Saying that they need a buff just because they die in the beta is not a good enough reason.

We aren't missing any armor, yet they still die at level 13 in a level 7-8 area, even with jungle fortitude.  So just how exactly are they going to gain a ton of survivability?

[MrMilo]

jaclashflash, on 14 March 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

MrMilo, on 14 March 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

We have to wait and see how they turn out in later difficulties. Saying that they need a buff just because they die in the beta is not a good enough reason.

We aren't missing any armor, yet they still die at level 13 in a level 7-8 area, even with jungle fortitude.  So just how exactly are they going to gain a ton of survivability?

I have no idea! hehe. I just think it's a little too early to talk about what should be buffed and what not. You have only played to lvl 13. And the 2x damage was only added to monsters 1-20. Who knows what will happen after that.

[Sabvre]

jaclashflash, on 14 March 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

Those arent even remotely reliable...

And you make terrilbe comments too much.  Did you even consider armor dmg reduction?

Zombie Handler + Jungle fortitude allows the dogs to take 1.5x before death.
Ohh and you can use jungle fortitude in beta.

A = (1 - dmg reduction from armor)
h = health of dogs
x= dmg dogs can take

A*x=h
(1-0.2)*x = 100
x = 125 dmg

Z = zombie handler = 0.8
J = Jungle fortiture increases health of dogs by 20%.

A*Z*x=h*Z
(1-0.2)*0.8*x = 100*1.2
0.64*x =120
x =187.5


187.5/120 = 1.5

I was wrong on my zombie handler passive... for some reason i was thinking it was 60% more life... was it ever that?

However, the math is a lot simpler.

Life = 1 * 1.2 (Zombie Handler) \ .8 (Jungle Fortitude) = 1.5.

Edited by Sabvre, 14 March 2012 - 06:14 PM.

[peekaydee]

The problem with complaining like this, is that you have no basis or credibility in doing so.  You have zero knowledge on how pets will scale in terms of difficulty, or if they even will.  Do you know how they scale based on statistics?  That information would be incredibly relevant to share, if you do.

You also failed to acknowledge the fact that Blizzard has told us the implementation of this "double damage" change is to make the players more accustomed to the difficulty they will face once they hit 20+.  They're trying to ease players into what we will know as "normal" (not the difficulty) and not make players have to deal with a huge spike in difficulty.  At least based on the way they worded it, thats how it sounds.

@Sabvre
Yes you are correct, zombie handler formerly added 60% life which has since been lowered to 20%.  I think the change occurred in patch 13, but it might have been 12.

Edited by peekaydee, 14 March 2012 - 06:34 PM.

[Ramsey]

I would assume that zombie dogs would be more powerful in earlier levels then later (if there is any difference in how strong they are relative to environment). So I don't expect them to become much better, passives or no passives.

It's sad really. I like minion builds, they were my favourite ones in D2. However, maybe the Necromancer will have better minions when he comes back.

Edited by Ramsey, 14 March 2012 - 06:53 PM.