62 replies to this topic

[Nuvian]

Quote

A disturbing tweet has recently come from Jay Wilson‘s account stating that the RMAH may, in fact, come to the hardcore scene. If there was one thing that would ruin the hardcore community, it would be micro-transactions. While it would not be a “9.99 for a resurrection,” it would essentially be just that. While you would be required to re-level to 60 over again, you could just swipe your card to gear out your character without the dedication. In fact, if character selling becomes available, hardcore would simply cease to be hardcore.

Alternate means of monetary transactions are always available for the hardcore community. However, there is deeper significance to the monetization of the hardcore community. Not only would an RMAH diminish hardcore stigma, it would open a Pandora’s box for the legal team. Kids with their father’s credit cards notwithstanding, “I didn’t know” just isn’t a reliable or legally viable excuse for killing off a character with $300 invested in it (or however much you wasted on Bobby Bucks). But who knows. It’s also possible that the demand is just not there, and such qualms would be few and far between.

@Angryrobotics Always wanted a genuinely hard but fun game. I truly think hardcore D3 will bring that. Any chance at RMAH on hardcore?
"If there is a demand for it we’ll consider it."


What is the community’s reaction to this bit of information? It would seem to me, at least, that HC would have become somewhat of a refuge for those that wish to dodge the community of money-spenders in softcore. In short, it would be a community that Blizzard would not have chosen to monetize, and therefore an untapped source of revenue. Surely Bobby would frown at such an oversight on Blizzard’s part.

Yet, with the introduction of the RMAH to the hardcore community, I believe it would effectively alienate them from what the mode really “stands” for – or at least the banner under which the majority of the hardcore community rallies.
As an addendum to this editorial, I see that it would be remiss to not address the benefits of having an RMAH – as some comments have pointed out. As I briefly mentioned before, such transactions would be present no matter what. As such, it would be in Blizzard’s interest not only to capitalize on an untapped revenue stream, but to allow a secure measure for such transactions. It seems, however, that Blizzard’s initial reasoning behind it was that the costs outweigh the benefits.
When talking with Jay and Rob Pardo last July, their reasoning behind the omission of an RMAH was to “save people from themselves.” The RMAH would create certain barriers and legal troubles, as well as a deterrent. Since this tweet directly involves the demand for such an option, it would seem that they are looking at as a viable revenue stream for the option before making it available.

What is the community’s reaction to this bit of information? I think it would be interesting to get a poll on this, seeing how people who actually will be playing hardcore feel about this possibility versus those who do not on playing it.

Source
It will ruin HC if they incorporate that

Edited by Nuvian, 11 March 2012 - 06:38 PM.

[Hjarl]

HC RMAH should be in the game. If not, the black market will just step in anyways. It did in D2.

[Mayne]

I never understood why there isnt one already. They wanted to give people a safe place to trade but they wont include the hardcore community in that safe place? People will still trade on d2jsp on hardcore.

Including a RMAH on hardcore would not in any way "kill it".

[Nuvian]

Only a very small percentage would use that, worth the price for keeping hardcore actually "hardcore".

Edited by Nuvian, 11 March 2012 - 11:04 PM.

[Mayne]

Nuvian, on 11 March 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

Only a very small percentage would use that, worth the pricing for keeping hardcore actually "hardcore".

How would a RMAH make the game less hardcore?

[Puttah]

When I read that quote "we'll consider it" I came running straight here...

Mayne, on 11 March 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

How would a RMAH make the game less hardcore?

It would lose its credibility.

It's kind of like taking sports enhancing drugs illegally to win an event. Sure, you're able to buy them from the black market and whatnot, but if you're caught actually doing it then you'll lose your respect from the rest of the competitors. Introducing the RMAH however will be like the event organizers condoning the use of drugs and selling it for a price similar to that on the black market right next to the track.

No one will look at hardcore in the same way, because any players could be "cheating" and since Blizzard is happy to help you reach that goal without actually playing the game the way its meant to be, then it's just lost its hardcore value.

Edited by Puttah, 12 March 2012 - 01:02 AM.

[Mayne]

Puttah, on 12 March 2012 - 01:01 AM, said:

When I read that quote "we'll consider it" I came running straight here...

Mayne, on 11 March 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

How would a RMAH make the game less hardcore?

It would lose its credibility.

It's kind of like taking sports enhancing drugs illegally to win an event. Sure, you're able to buy them from the black market and whatnot, but if you're caught actually doing it then you'll lose your respect from the rest of the competitors. Introducing the RMAH however will be like the event organizers condoning the use of drugs and selling it for a price similar to that on the black market right next to the track.

No one will look at hardcore in the same way, because any players could be "cheating" and since Blizzard is happy to help you reach that goal without actually playing the game the way its meant to be, then it's just lost its hardcore value.

Since like 90% of the players will play softcore, this game sure will have alot of cheaters!

And how exactly is the game "meant to be played"? Buying from gold-AH or RMAH is all the same, you buy someone elses items, you didnt find it yourself, omg cheating! Regardless of RMAH or not, you have no way of knowing if a player bought all of his items with money or not.

[Puttah]

Mayne, on 12 March 2012 - 04:46 AM, said:

Buying from gold-AH or RMAH is all the same, you buy someone elses items

Introducing a factor into the equation that doesn't involve your experience with the game itself is not the same. Buying off the GAH, you are spending gold which you acquired in the game. Buying off the RMAH means you're spending real money which you may be willing to spend much more of than the next guy. It does not represent your skill in the game, and a large part of hardcore is the notion of boasting about your achievements.

Mayne, on 12 March 2012 - 04:46 AM, said:

Regardless of RMAH or not, you have no way of knowing if a player bought all of his items with money or not.

I know, and I never said the hardcore playerbase will be sure that everyone played old school - legitimately. You know, the way the game is meant to be played. I just said that hardcore will lose its credibility if an RMAH is introduced.

[UberN00b]

Hjarl, on 11 March 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

the black market will just step in anyways. It did in D2.

I think it's important to consider that fact.

If there is no RMAH and the black market steps in, what then?  Wouldn't Hardcore lose its credibility anyway?  They already opened the box with Softcore RMAH.  I've seen a lot of people call D3 a pay-to-win game because of this, but that at least the Hardcore has that redeeming quality of no RMAH.  But again, how is that of any comfort knowing the black market will take hold?

This reminds me of the discussions about being able to escape a Duriel-like chamber "In Case of Emergency" kind of thing, and my response is "If you can't take Hardcore, don't play it".  So to the opposition of a HC-RMAH, I say if you don't want to pay for the items, then don't use it.

Even if there is a RMAH, I wouldn't pay for Hardcore gear.  For me, the experience is playing the game, not paying to win at it.  And it wouldn't bother me to play along side strangers that did in public games.  D3 is going to require a keen sense of the game's denizens and their mechanics.  Suppose someone blew $300 on the HC-RMAH for best-in-slot-everything for their Demon Hunter.  Problem is, they don't know how to play it.  How is this ruining it for anyone else?  It's their $300 that's going to vaporize the first time they get in over their head, soooo.... ?

Edited by UberN00b, 12 March 2012 - 07:10 AM.

[Puttah]

UberN00b, on 12 March 2012 - 07:09 AM, said:

If there is no RMAH and the black market steps in, what then?  Wouldn't Hardcore lose its credibility anyway?  They already opened the box with Softcore RMAH

You need to consider the psychological aspect of what makes the RMAH more appealing over the black market.

• Easy access and functionality
  
• Direct advertisement
  
• A safe trading environment
  
• Legalization

The consequence of the RMAH being superior to black market sites with all these points is that many more people will get involved in its use. As I already pointed out with an analogy, some may go to lengths to take illegal performance enhancing drugs and there's nothing we can do about that as a whole, but once the drugs are openly endorsed and sold in a stall that's operated by the venue, then the venue loses all credibility.

[DiabloGuilds]

Of course it should be in. There is no "right", "wrong" or "legit" way to play HC.

Let all enjoy HC the way he/she thinks is most fun. HC means once you die you stay dead, nothing more.

[Nuvian]

Mayne, on 12 March 2012 - 04:46 AM, said:

Puttah, on 12 March 2012 - 01:01 AM, said:

When I read that quote "we'll consider it" I came running straight here...

Mayne, on 11 March 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

How would a RMAH make the game less hardcore?

It would lose its credibility.

It's kind of like taking sports enhancing drugs illegally to win an event. Sure, you're able to buy them from the black market and whatnot, but if you're caught actually doing it then you'll lose your respect from the rest of the competitors. Introducing the RMAH however will be like the event organizers condoning the use of drugs and selling it for a price similar to that on the black market right next to the track.

No one will look at hardcore in the same way, because any players could be "cheating" and since Blizzard is happy to help you reach that goal without actually playing the game the way its meant to be, then it's just lost its hardcore value.

Since like 90% of the players will play softcore, this game sure will have alot of cheaters!

And how exactly is the game "meant to be played"? Buying from gold-AH or RMAH is all the same, you buy someone elses items, you didnt find it yourself, omg cheating! Regardless of RMAH or not, you have no way of knowing if a player bought all of his items with money or not.

Difference is that when buying from gold HC you cant buy a starting capital, with RMAH you can just put 50 bucks into your ingame account and start buying without having accumulated any of the gold/starting capital your self.

[Puttah]

Nuvian, on 12 March 2012 - 01:16 PM, said:

Difference is that when buying from gold HC you cant buy a starting capital, with RMAH you can just put 50 bucks into your ingame account and start buying without having accumulated any of the gold/starting capital your self.

So, in other words, so you can jump straight into late game?
Sure, that's an obvious difference between having the RMAH vs not having it, but is it a good one?

[Mayne]

I feel the discussion is going the wrong way. For me the the issue isnt the RMAH itself but why it exists for softcore and not for hardcore. What seperates the both to the point one should have a (dis)advantage (depending on your view point) over the other?

Edited by Mayne, 12 March 2012 - 04:45 PM.

[UberN00b]

Puttah, on 12 March 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

UberN00b, on 12 March 2012 - 07:09 AM, said:

If there is no RMAH and the black market steps in, what then?  Wouldn't Hardcore lose its credibility anyway?  They already opened the box with Softcore RMAH

You need to consider the psychological aspect of what makes the RMAH more appealing over the black market.

• Easy access and functionality
  
• Direct advertisement
  
• A safe trading environment
  
• Legalization

The consequence of the RMAH being superior to black market sites with all these points is that many more people will get involved in its use. As I already pointed out with an analogy, some may go to lengths to take illegal performance enhancing drugs and there's nothing we can do about that as a whole, but once the drugs are openly endorsed and sold in a stall that's operated by the venue, then the venue loses all credibility.

I liken performance-enhancing drugs to cheating.  If that were the case, Blizzard would endorse hacking/mods on closed Battle.net.  Trading for loot (no matter the means so long as both parties agree to the transaction) is not cheating.  Violation of EULA?  That's a different matter, but it's all the same loot.  It's not like a purchased The Oculus has different stats than The Oculus you found from Andariel.  The difference is you spent x time farming it, someone else spent 10 seconds to buy it.  Same loot.  Same item.  Same level playing field.

You know what else is unfair?  Maybe this same guy that bought it also could afford an awesome computer to play the game seemlessly while I'm puttering around on a minimum system requriements machine and often have graphic lag that he doesn't.  So because someone else had the money to buy a better system, is that unfair and they should be held back?  I see no difference with that and buying loot.  If you have the money and you want to drop it on loot, more power to you.  I'm going to play the game and farm my own wealth.  That's the fun I get out of it.

Edited by UberN00b, 12 March 2012 - 05:21 PM.

[Puttah]

UberN00b, on 12 March 2012 - 05:20 PM, said:

I liken performance-enhancing drugs to cheating.  If that were the case, Blizzard would endorse hacking/mods on closed Battle.net.

The thing is is that if Blizzard could make large sums of money off of it without losing too much credibility, they would do it, because let's face it, if Blizzard weren't about making money, they would never implement the RMAH. It simply goes against the concept of having a second life within the game and being completely devoid of influences such as money from your real life.

UberN00b, on 12 March 2012 - 05:20 PM, said:

Trading for loot (no matter the means so long as both parties agree to the transaction) is not cheating.  Violation of EULA?  That's a different matter, but it's all the same loot.  It's not like a purchased The Oculus has different stats than The Oculus you found from Andariel.  The difference is you spent x time farming it, someone else spent 10 seconds to buy it.  Same loot.  Same item.  Same level playing field.

Of course I'm not saying that the RMAH is pumping more items into the economy (besides the fact that players that quit will now be selling off their items rather than leaving them to rot on their account) and I don't really care if some people choose to buy their way to the top as opposed to farming their way there.
What I care about is all those psychological factors I mentioned earlier that influence a player's decision to use the RMAH. For example, I myself won't be spending any money on the game, but when I've been farming non-stop for the passed 10 hours to try and find the item that I want, but I see it's up for sale for just $20 which I can make in 1 hour, if I wanted to be efficient about all my farming I would clearly buy the item and just work more to make up for it, saving me plenty of time.
This may seem like a crude example and you might be like "you're just weak for giving in etc. etc." but in a game where competition is a major factor in its longevity, you can't deny that this scenario will be happening, a lot.

This is why I decided I'll be playing hardcore most of all. To avoid the RMAH completely, so I don't have the option of even considering to buy items. I want to play the game the way it's meant to be played, but I can't promise that my strive to find the path of least resistance won't get the better of me.
If the RMAH finds its way into hardcore as well... then I'll just be lost for words. I'd find it ridiculous that I can't find a mode to play where the RMAH doesn't have an influence on it. And this goes back to my point about Blizzard's direct advertisement again. If they have it hovering around your face no matter where you try to run, they'll make more money out of it.

UberN00b, on 12 March 2012 - 05:20 PM, said:

You know what else is unfair?  Maybe this same guy that bought it also could afford an awesome computer to play the game seemlessly while I'm puttering around on a minimum system requriements machine and often have graphic lag that he doesn't.  So because someone else had the money to buy a better system, is that unfair and they should be held back?  I see no difference with that and buying loot.

If you're a student studying for an exam, do you find it cheating if a family that's better off can provide their kid with a tutor? I wouldn't.
I would however find it cheating if that same kid pays someone else to do his exam for him.

UberN00b, on 12 March 2012 - 05:20 PM, said:

If you have the money and you want to drop it on loot, more power to you.  I'm going to play the game and farm my own wealth.  That's the fun I get out of it.

That's also the way I want to play the game, hence why I'm against the RMAH because it attempts to take away from that. Trying to be the best is also fun however, and now there are much more efficient ways to get there than farming can possibly provide. These two points directly contradict each other, so in the end it comes down ones resilience and morals.

The consequence of HC-RMAH not being implemented because of the customer support nightmare that will follow with it is a blessing to me. I found somewhere that I can avoid the RMAH completely. Please don't take that away from me...

[UberN00b]

Puttah, on 12 March 2012 - 11:47 PM, said:

The consequence of HC-RMAH not being implemented because of the customer support nightmare that will follow with it is a blessing to me. I found somewhere that I can avoid the RMAH completely. Please don't take that away from me...

So basically because you would find it a distraction, you are opposed to HC-RMAH?  Really, that's what it boils down to.  How does it being less of a "cusomter support nightmare" affect you?  Do you work at Blizz Customer Support?  Do you manage Blizz Cusomter Support?  I fail to see this connection you have drawn.  And how is RMAH taking away from you choosing to farm and not buy items?  It's your choice to farm or buy.  Because you have poor will power to not buy from RMAH (or would be tempted, as you put it) is not a justifiable reason to block the rest of the public from enjoying a perfectly legitmate HC-RMAH.  You're saying "Oh because I get tempted, the RMAH just shouldn't be there.  It's taking away from the HC experience because it is tempting me to buy.".

It just seems you are more protestant to it than simply "I hope it doesn't happen" for reasons that are more pointed toward your own personal goals rather than looking at how it would really NOT CHANGE a thing to have HC-RMAH for the rest of the public thanks to the black market.  The competitive prestige you eluded to earlier will be acquired by any means necessary by those that intend to push their limits including buying loot if they see fit to do so.  The number of people willing to go black market for goods is high enough for loot sites to procure this inventory.  Psychological triggers are going to trigger to buy loot regardless of the sources available.

Your reasons (to which we're all entitled to our own) are, in reality, self-serving (ignorant of the others that do not see a devaluation in their fun because of HC-RMAH and maybe even would like HC-RMAH), and so pointedly self-serving (regardles of how comprehensively rationalized and articulated they may be) that I can't simply disagree, but I must inform you exactly as such.  Your psycological discomfort from the mere presence of RMAH should not be the rest of the public's burden (i.e. being deprived of a HC-RMAH).

Edited by UberN00b, 13 March 2012 - 04:34 AM.

[Slybacon]

Wasn't the reasoning behind not having a HC RMAH because they didn't want people going after them after spending $100 on there characters only to die to server lag?

[Puttah]

UberN00b, you're correct in stating that I don't want the HC-RMAH because it will tempt me into using it. It's also a big reason why I decided to move to HC permanently, because ideally I'd play SC every now and again when my net is playing up, which it often does.

UberN00b, on 13 March 2012 - 04:30 AM, said:

Your psycological discomfort from the mere presence of RMAH should not be the rest of the public's burden (i.e. being deprived of a HC-RMAH).

See, this is what bothers me. Was it the public's burden when pretty much EVERY other game out there in the past prohibited the act of selling items for real money? Maybe for the minority that regularly traded in that way, but for the entire public? No.
It was a common acceptance that buying items for money was seen as cheating. But now that Blizzard wants to earn a buck in it all, suddenly its an amazing feature that the public needs. They need to be exposed to the RMAH so they can start using it as well, so Blizzard can make more money, so the classic sense of getting better in a game by actually playing the game more or more efficiently is completely diminished?

I'm sorry, but if its a burden for the public, then they still have the options of sticking to SC, using the black market, or - god forbid - not buying their way to victory.
What options do I have (and I don't just mean myself, there are plenty of others out there) to avoid the RMAH if the HC-RMAH is implemented?
I'm sure you think it's idiotic that someone can in fact succumb to Blizzard's advertisements, but it's a very real psychological phenomenon that Blizzard and the rest of the businesses in the world count on happening.

[UberN00b]

Yes, it's marketing at its finest.  Everything IS a business.  Why shouldn't Blizzard capture that business instead of the off-shore black market sites?  At least Blizzard is getting financial support in some kind of way for a game that is free to play.  No software is perfect.  It will have imperfections that need patched.  Forever.  This includes fixing exploits to fix hacks.  Given higher stakes involved with a Hardcore character and how Diablo 2 (albiet poorly designed as far as thwarting hacks) was completely decimated because of hacks, I like knowing that SOMEHOW there is incentive for Blizzard to continue to support, fix, patch, and protect the Hardcore game mode I love the most.  Not to say HC-RMAH is the only answer to supporting D3's future patching because there should be plenty of $$ coming from SC-RMAH, but the money would all go the same pot anyway.

Unfortunately, marketing is in everything we touch.  It's everywhere.  It's stamped on the bottom of bottles, cans, napkins, all over benchs, envelopes, junk mail, etc.  There is no escape from marketing.  And of course if Blizzard has a new service/product they will inform everyone they can as such to make it produce revenue.  That is what selling a game is all about in the first place.  For us, the game is a release.  An escape.  It's a hobby.  We enjoy it.  For those that produce it, it is their lifeblood.  It is their way of making money.  Nothing about this is charitible or devoid of the inherant "sleeze factor" that comes along with business.  Money doesn't care about how you feel or how I feel, but it is what keeps Blizzard's doors open and their teams support the games we enjoy.

And your "option" to avoid RMAH is exactly that.  A choice to say No and not use it.