433 replies to this topic

[Adon]

ab0ve, on 24 April 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

Just becuase the developers aren't going to make it balanced for PvP doesn't mean we can't put our own rules and requirements  to make the game balanced and competitive.

I fail to see how them saying they don't want it to be an eSport will stop us...  Now if there is no party system or custom games then yeah, PvP will blow donkey balls.  I want to slay with my friends, if we want to slay with randoms in a competitve environment there's better games for that.  Not having parties/custom invite PvP games will pretty much kill any chance of PvP in Diablo3 as an esport.

No...itll kill any chance of PvP at all in D3. If we can't customize how we want to fight even at end of match then it is a total fail.

[Andarus]

Short: NO!
Long: What the fuck are you thinking! D3 is not even close to an esport. To call D3 an esport is a insult to real esports like  SC2 or QuakeLive.

Edited by Andarus, 24 April 2012 - 09:02 PM.

[Adon]

Andarus, on 24 April 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

Short: NO!
Long: What the fuck are you thinking! D3 is not even close to an esport. To call D3 an esport is a insult to real esports like  SC2 or QuakeLive.

Haha, well lets look at SC2.

It definitely takes some skill, more then Diablo though? Maybe, I might give you that. You got your beginning of game where you gotta scout to determine build...then you have optimal build to beat said build...so follow that flowchart. Then middle game...again...scout and flowchart. Ok now late game...flowchart. SC2 is a ton of flowchart, X has created Y so I am going Z. Yea managing all of that is probably the only skill involved beyond microing your units correctly which also takes skill.

Now in Diablo you have to know matchups (Flow charts that move!), you have to use terrain to your advantage (Just like SC!), you have to aim your attacks(MICROING), and You have to dodge attacks(MICROING).

Id say both games take a good amount of skill and reflexes at high end, SC I will give the nod to because it has much more going on.  However to say Diablo can't compete at an esport level is just plain wrong, and spoken like a person who didn't really PvP in Diablo congrats.

For the record, I don't want esports in D3, nor do I think it will happen. If it does it is because of the community and it could very well happen if they want and Blizzard really can't do shit about it.

[Andarus]

Sry, you have no idea! Its not about: Counter Unit X with Unit Y... that doesn't win you alot of games. Its all about mechanics! You need to be fast, know your hotkeys, be able to move and select your units blindly. And don't forget all the macro/micro.
Seriously, Diablo 3 doesn't need alot of skill. Its all about knowing what stat to go for and what items to use.Gameplay-wise you can't show alot of skill. A little bit of movement and usefull skill-combos aren't really skillchecks.
Diablo 3 is made for WoW-Casuals, so don't expect a extremly skill-based and challenging game.

[Flenty]

There's no reason to make this an e-sport.. They got Sc2 and WoW for that. At a skill base level I'd say this game can't be that difficult either. Why? WoW arena (which seems to be more like what diablo is going to be like) although you have to position yourself well, as in WoW the skill-cap is much lower because you can only have 6 spells at a time. I know most classes in WoW don't use 20 or more skills per arena fight, but in Diablo you're not going to use all 6 either. Most likely you have 1 mantra/shout whatever.. 2 dps spells and 3 cc/defense spells.

Also balancing this game pvp-wise will take up a lot of time. This is not a game with 10 million people paying 15 bucks per month.. this is a one-time purchase and therefore has a lower budget for tweaking than a game like WoW.

I would love competitive diablo, I wouldnt mind it being an e-sport.. but there is just no reason for blizzard to do this.. they want to keep WoW arena alive.. if everyone suddenly went diablo for it's competitive arena-play that wouldn't be as profitable

[Adon]

Andarus, on 24 April 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

Sry, you have no idea! Its not about: Counter Unit X with Unit Y... that doesn't win you alot of games. Its all about mechanics! You need to be fast, know your hotkeys, be able to move and select your units blindly. And don't forget all the macro/micro.
Seriously, Diablo 3 doesn't need alot of skill. Its all about knowing what stat to go for and what items to use.Gameplay-wise you can't show alot of skill. A little bit of movement and usefull skill-combos aren't really skillchecks.
Diablo 3 is made for WoW-Casuals, so don't expect a extremly skill-based and challenging game.

Haha really? Seriously?
It isn't about hard counters really? Might wanna learn the game buddy, it is ALL about countering your opponent. Yes microing definitely takes place at high end gameplay, but even great microing will lose to a hard counter from a medium player.

Well then, I am confident that you will be able to stomp me in the arena or even D2 for that matter because moving your character and aiming are nonskill based actions correct? Damn where have I seen that gameplay from....oh yea kinda like a FPS. So FPS are non skill games...wait isn't quake a shooter? Ok that won't work..so knowing match ups and utilizing zoning tactics...that is kinda like a fighter...but that doesn't take skill either right?

[Mac_an_tSaoir]

A games difficulty is in its learning curve, and then the skill of the opponent played. Comparing games outside of genres in regards to difficulty is stupid? This is why a lot of pros don't jump genre to genre, but stay inside there professional "bubble".

Further, years of playing a certain type of game, actually make your brain change and adapt to the style of game you play. Read an article when I was studying cognitive psychology about FPS and it's affects on the brain. Gamers who specialize in playing FPS games can make more 'critical decision' with a higher accuracy rate, given little time to respond. This coincides with that happens in a FPS game. You have fractions of a second to respond to a situation, or you die. Yeah there is a lot of strat and skill that goes into playing team based FPS, but what it comes down to is a gunfight, and those are over in a second.

This is probly the case for MMO, RTS, Fighting games etc. Years of playing them day in and day out changes your brain to be more efficient in their play style.

There are probably some great pro gamers that can bounce between genres, but for the most part you just see a transition from gamers inside the genre. You will see MOBA players shuffle around from game to game, sc to sc2, fighter gamers bounce around between mortal combat, street fighter etc.

Here is an example

Chu

"Comes out of nowhere with a competitively viable meepo, who I think was considered nothing but a pubstomper.

Goes to HoN, considered best player for some time.

Goes to LoL, uses Maokai, a character who was previously considered trash tier. Becomes highest MMR-equivilent or something in LoL (basically the best player).

Comes back to HoN for afaik a mediocre showing in Dreamhack (outside of some big plays)

Goes back to LoL, for it is good to be the king."

You guys are trying to compare apples to oranges, the only comparison to draw between d3 and sc, is that they are both made by blizzard, and they are both video games. That's it.

Edited by Mac_an_tSaoir, 24 April 2012 - 11:38 PM.

[Kodachii]

So long as you have power in a game it should not become an esport.  Not only are they going to spend minimal amounts of time on d3 pvp balance in general, having 5+ classes with broken gear earned from credit card and killing monsters is not a good platform for competitive play.

I'm all for more pvp functionality in d3 but I'll keep playing sc2 if I want to play a game capable and worthy of being an esport.

[Mac_an_tSaoir]

Kodachii, on 24 April 2012 - 11:39 PM, said:

So long as you have power in a game it should not become an esport.  Not only are they going to spend minimal amounts of time on d3 pvp balance in general, having 5+ classes with broken gear earned from credit card and killing monsters is not a good platform for competitive play.

I'm all for more pvp functionality in d3 but I'll keep playing sc2 if I want to play a game capable and worthy of being an esport.

You can buy league placement in sc2 if you know where to look (not 1v1 obv) you can buy "perceived" power in any game.

I beat noobs all the time in games that have way better gear than me. Gear only takes you so far my friend.

[Kodachii]

Mac_an_tSaoir, on 24 April 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

Kodachii, on 24 April 2012 - 11:39 PM, said:

So long as you have power in a game it should not become an esport.  Not only are they going to spend minimal amounts of time on d3 pvp balance in general, having 5+ classes with broken gear earned from credit card and killing monsters is not a good platform for competitive play.

I'm all for more pvp functionality in d3 but I'll keep playing sc2 if I want to play a game capable and worthy of being an esport.

You can buy league placement in sc2 if you know where to look (not 1v1 obv) you can buy "perceived" power in any game.

I beat noobs all the time in games that have way better gear than me. Gear only takes you so far my friend.

Power and imbalance (like fotm) can still take you at least that far.  It's an innate advantage before combat even begins, whether you're able to make use of it or not and regardless of the extent you're able to do so.  I have beaten better equipped players many times, but I have also lost arena matches I had no business losing because I was in greens and the guys in the other pin were in gear which could just facetank me for a minute and kill me in a second.

It only takes you so far, but if you ask me it's no paper thin margin in an RPG.  Gear also causes other complications for pvp such as RNG, it's hard to take it seriously when two people are on opposite sides of the same coin (in a mirror match with the same exact skill and gear for instance) but one guy is landing crit after crit after crit while the other keeps on getting dodged and parried and hitting for normal minimum damage.

Edited by Kodachii, 25 April 2012 - 01:21 AM.

[Mac_an_tSaoir]

Kodachii, on 25 April 2012 - 01:17 AM, said:

Mac_an_tSaoir, on 24 April 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

Kodachii, on 24 April 2012 - 11:39 PM, said:

So long as you have power in a game it should not become an esport.  Not only are they going to spend minimal amounts of time on d3 pvp balance in general, having 5+ classes with broken gear earned from credit card and killing monsters is not a good platform for competitive play.

I'm all for more pvp functionality in d3 but I'll keep playing sc2 if I want to play a game capable and worthy of being an esport.

You can buy league placement in sc2 if you know where to look (not 1v1 obv) you can buy "perceived" power in any game.

I beat noobs all the time in games that have way better gear than me. Gear only takes you so far my friend.

Power and imbalance (like fotm) can still take you at least that far.  It's an innate advantage before combat even begins, whether you're able to make use of it or not and regardless of the extent you're able to do so.  I have beaten better equipped players many times, but I have also lost arena matches I had no business losing because I was in greens and the guys in the other pin were in gear which could just facetank me for a minute and kill me in a second.

It only takes you so far, but if you ask me it's no paper thin margin in an RPG.  Gear also causes other complications for pvp such as RNG, it's hard to take it seriously when two people are on opposite sides of the same coin (in a mirror match with the same exact skill and gear for instance) but one guy is landing crit after crit after crit while the other keeps on getting dodged and parried and hitting for normal minimum damage.

it all balances out in the wash and skill prevails.

(inc numbers that are just to make a point)
If the opponent has 1k attack and is at a 1600 PSR/MMR, and you have 800 attack and you face him. He barely beats you, what happens when you get 1k and fight that some kid? You stomp him into oblivion. All bad players purchasing gear does is pad stats, it doesnt make them good. Why anyone is worried about this is beyond me. He buys something with irl money, you buy something with gold. Current polls show most wont even buy from the RMAH, just sell on it.

All buying gear with using RMAH is doing, is delaying the inevitable, when the time will come when someone fights them with equal gear, and will be way higher skilled. You can always buy power in any game, but you can never buy skill. This argument on it being a diablo thing because of the RMAH is a dead horse beating.

Edited by Mac_an_tSaoir, 25 April 2012 - 01:43 AM.

[Kodachii]

I'm just telling you why it shouldn't be considered a legit esport, not why the ranking system doesn't work.  I'm pointing at wow and its short and declining life as an esport to make that point.  The part about buying power wasn't an underlying point, it was just to show that power wasn't even necessarily a time investment, as if that should be a requirement for something to be an esport in the first place...

In wow tournaments they give you premade characters and allow you to use various items of your choosing so that power isn't a factor.  Despite this FOTM (flavor of the month, or overpowering class-compositions) always exists unless it's a mirror match, and even if it is you can still lose to people of lesser skill through the process of Random Number Generation as I detailed in the post above.

Was also suggesting that arena and pvp will recieve record low balancing from blizzard because they don't want the game to become an esport, specifically pointed out during a blizzcon.  They don't want to do the work and make the "sacrifices" involved in order to make it happen.  So it wouldn't even be nearly as balanced as wow from the get go.

I have no problem if blizzard allows people to organize private pvp matches (and thus the creation of community based tournaments) and people make up their own rules or lack thereof, in fact I hope this is the case, but I'm simply detailing a few points as to why d3 will not become an esport.

Edited by Kodachii, 25 April 2012 - 01:53 AM.

[ecutruin]

http://www.diablofan...2-pvp-in-d3/#30

Looks like they've kept their stance on PvP in Diablo 3.

[Kodachii]

ecutruin, on 25 April 2012 - 02:38 AM, said:

http://www.diablofan...2-pvp-in-d3/#30

Looks like they've kept their stance on PvP in Diablo 3.

Their stance on diablo becoming an esport platform, not pvp.  In other words the kinds of discussions we've been having here in the pvp forums (for the most part maybe this topic aside) are not going to stop because there is no reason for them to because what we've been discussing would not further esports.


Think about it.  They already have their esport game SC2 with 2 planned expansions.  SC2 leagues are picking up the old broodwar leagues and growing even now.  There is hype, and the venues have been established.  I'm not sure as to how sc2 being an esport grows blizz's revenue exactly but I know it has to, probably paid for the rights for starters.

Then they have their annual subscription MMO game, wow, and they found ways to make extra money with microtransactions therein.  There have been 3 expansions thus for with at least another 2 on the way.

Now they have Diablo 3 which will make additional money through the RMAH with 2 planned expansions.  I imagine that mass use of the RMAH will be key, and cosmetic DLC etc may be added in time... which means they will need to just have a large player base constantly fueling the economy bit by insignificant bit.  This means the 25%+ pvp population that would otherwise quit after "beating the game" in each individual's definition needs to also be attended to.

They aren't going to make 3 esports games and have them compete with each other.  They were terrified of diablo 3 killing wow as it was, remember all the surveys etc we got on that matter, let alone the annual pass feature?

One thing is for sure.  (activision) blizzard knows exactly what they're doing.  Each of these games has been designed to continue gathering revenue beyond box sales, and the games themselves are so popular and timeless that they continue to appear on store shelves for a decade and beyond once released.  I saw sc2 was still the same price it was during launch, it's been a couple years.

Edited by Kodachii, 25 April 2012 - 04:33 AM.

[The_Colonel]

jaco111, on 22 February 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

How many people want Diablo to be an eSports? I know I would, it would give Diablo pvp a whole new meaning. I think it would work great and get better the more blizzard works with it. You can compare it to wow pvp (I'd rather not lol) Diablo has Line of Sight, Cool-downs, Crowd Controls, Buffs, different builds for variety and does take teamwork and skill to win. Diablo 3 has already become way more complex than click-to-smash like in Diablo 2 (don't get me wrong I love Diablo 2). They could incorporate multiple pvp version like TDM, LMS, CTF or whatever the players want.

I was lucky enough to go to last years Blizzcon and exsperiance the Diablo 3 pvp multiple times. All the classes were very balanced there was no annoying healer like in wow and it was a whole lot more fun than wow. They could also incorporate an arena system and have the finals at Blizzcon every year. Sense they don't do Warcraft tournaments there is a spot open. If started early the eSports would last a long time since there is going to be 2 or 3 exspansions with the game.

I know the said they wouldn't do it but they also said that if there was enough of us who wants Diablo 3 to be an eSport they would do it. So who wants a more competitive pvp?

I really want D3 to become an e-sport or at least have a decent pvp balance

[Mac_an_tSaoir]

Kodachii, on 25 April 2012 - 01:49 AM, said:

I'm just telling you why it shouldn't be considered a legit esport, not why the ranking system doesn't work.  I'm pointing at wow and its short and declining life as an esport to make that point.  The part about buying power wasn't an underlying point, it was just to show that power wasn't even necessarily a time investment, as if that should be a requirement for something to be an esport in the first place...

In wow tournaments they give you premade characters and allow you to use various items of your choosing so that power isn't a factor.  Despite this FOTM (flavor of the month, or overpowering class-compositions) always exists unless it's a mirror match, and even if it is you can still lose to people of lesser skill through the process of Random Number Generation as I detailed in the post above.

Was also suggesting that arena and pvp will recieve record low balancing from blizzard because they don't want the game to become an esport, specifically pointed out during a blizzcon.  They don't want to do the work and make the "sacrifices" involved in order to make it happen.  So it wouldn't even be nearly as balanced as wow from the get go.

I have no problem if blizzard allows people to organize private pvp matches (and thus the creation of community based tournaments) and people make up their own rules or lack thereof, in fact I hope this is the case, but I'm simply detailing a few points as to why d3 will not become an esport.

Welcome to PvP, where x beats y, y beats w, w beats z, z beats  v etc etc etc. Throw 2,3,5 of them on a team against another 2,3,5 and you think you will achieve perfect balance?

There is always fotm because pros play it, and once it's seen by the world that "insert players" played "insert comp" everyone plays it. The example of chu I gave shows that pro players set whats viable and not viable 99% of the time. Top viable builds and comps on arena junkies etc.

Everyone said meepo was shit and you couldnt play him competitively.. Chu did it. Couldnt play Maoki, Chu did it.

in regards to your WoW example, I forget what season it was (within the last 2 years) resto druids were "shit" then some pro team comp comes in with a resto druid and rapes the fuck out of everyone. FOTM should be changed to "flavour of whatever the fuck the pro players deem as awesome" because that's often what happens.

I think it comes down to 3 things.
1. they dont want to compete against sc2 for viewer numbers/popularity
2. Wilson doesnt know how to balance for PvP/ have a desire to balance for PvP which has been evident in pretty much every statement he's made with the exception of him wanting a place for HC death duels
3. They have obviously become complacent with the development of this game, and as such game systems are cut and delayed left right and centre.

They already have the SNOWS/SNOES? in place to tweak abilities to behave differently in PvP vs PvE, all they would have to do is

Open PvP - No preset gear No eSport, play with friends, open que, duel, etc.
Closed PvP - preset gear, eSport (similar to gw2 pvp take)

Then put a PvP strike team on balance, done. They have dicked around too much with the development to be anywhere close to this occurring IF they wanted it to happen which they clearly dont, that would just mean more work, which they are already months behind in, to ship an unfinished product to patch it later to be a finished product. We have to wait post launch for just regular PvP, fuck it ever  being even close to eSport level. 2-6 months for just regular PvP to be out..... it's just a joke.

I honestly dont know what they do over at blizzard, but Indie teams like GGG have put blizzards d3 dev team to shame

[Luedine]

Mac_an_tSaoir, on 24 April 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

Kodachii, on 24 April 2012 - 11:39 PM, said:

So long as you have power in a game it should not become an esport.  Not only are they going to spend minimal amounts of time on d3 pvp balance in general, having 5+ classes with broken gear earned from credit card and killing monsters is not a good platform for competitive play.

I'm all for more pvp functionality in d3 but I'll keep playing sc2 if I want to play a game capable and worthy of being an esport.

You can buy league placement in sc2 if you know where to look (not 1v1 obv) you can buy "perceived" power in any game.

I beat noobs all the time in games that have way better gear than me. Gear only takes you so far my friend.

For anyone who played PvP in WoW all I got to say is:
Deathknight
Holypaladin
Season 5.

90% of the gladiator titles that season went to DK / Pala combos and it had very little to do with them being more talented.

Either way no, D3 is not suitable as a eSport.

[Swiftee]

Why is it everytime an online game comes out people want it to be an esport - NO Blizzard wont be balancing this around you pvp scrubs.

Edited by Swiftee, 25 April 2012 - 01:10 PM.

[Gregorian]

Diablo 3 will never become an e-sport. An e-sports game has to be watchable, it has to be nice to watch, make people show emotions, supports players. Would you like to watch some 2v2 or 3v3 arenas from upper view camera? I find WoW arenas sooooo boring, this would be even a bigger boredom. Want an e-sports game, go play Starcraft 2, it's extremely cool to watch, it has a great community, players are treated like celebrities, casters are known and their knowledge is decent, SC2 is the future of esports!

[ab0ve]

Swiftee, on 25 April 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

Why is it everytime an online game comes out people want it to be an esport - NO Blizzard wont be balancing this around you pvp scrubs.

I bet you have fun manipulating the systems in game.  I bet you'll find most PvP'ers don't find it very entertaining to just beat the same content over and over and over.  We need somthing to drive us to play the game more.  Like beating the crap out of people in an arena and grinding gear to make that easier.  Why this is bad?  Or bad for Diablo 3?

I'll never understand the hate towards people who try and make somthing competitive, it's human nature.  People throw a ball down a lane and knock shit over and get paid 100's of thousands of dollars to do so.  Why shouldn't we have that in a game we enjoy?  We can always throw skills out and balance things the best we can if Bliz won't help.